Yelling at little old ladies/ Brian's rubbing off on me.

[Stumper]

No offense Bri, My yelling was inspired by different circumstances. I got a call about a stump. Address sounded familiar.... sure enough it was a place where I had a deal to remove the tree a year ago. They asked How I would do it and I explained that I would piece down som live branches on the house side of the tree then fell the dead topped Cottonwood into the empty adjacent lot (which they own). Okay. The day before I was scheduled to do it it rained. The man called and asked me to delay a week because the ground might be soft. Okay, I rescheduled them for 3 weeks later. "Can't you do it sooner"
"No, I can do it now or 3 weeks from now"
"Okay"
2 and 1/2 weeks later I called to confirm the date and they said"Oh, we got someone else.":angry2:

Soooo..... I get there and look. The people who took down the tree ground most of the stump but left a 14"x 22" edge unground- flush cut it and covered it up. They also had a surface root on the other side of the stump that was sprouting. I thought-no use holding a grudge. I told the man "I'll grind the section that they left and that root, poison it and rake the grindings back in and smooth it out for $50.
He said "Let me go talk to my wife." came back and said "Okay ,When can you do it?"
"Right now"(I didn't want to come back-esp considering their past history.)
"Okay"
So I ground it out,ran over to the hardware store for some Triclopyr (which I needed anyway) came back, treated the live roots and started backfilling the hole. The man comes out and says "I thought you were going to haul that away."
I said "Nosir, I said I would rake it back in and smooth it out."
He said "Okay" and went inside. (incidentally it is raining now)
He comes back and says "My wife said that you said that you were going to haul that away."
I replied, "NO, I said I would rake it back in and smooth it out. And I talked to you I haven't spoken with your wife."
He went back in.
The wife comes to the door and hollers"You said that you would take that away".
Ye olde dander came up. "NO MA'AM, I DID NOT SAY THAT! IF I HAD SAID THAT I WOULD DO IT BUT I CAN"T AFFORD TO DO THAT FOR THIS PRICE!"
She went back inside. I finished raking the gravel over the chips and went and got paid. She acted fine.

It seems like every couple of years I deal with someone that you have to be exceedly firm (get angry) with in order to not get run over.

 

[Menchhofer]

After reading your post perhaps you should integrate written contracts with your work. This would have helped with the delay issue and the stump debris removal question. Just a thought.

 

[SilverBlue]

Selling is an art all itself.

I solved the chip issue by having the customer come out to the stump and explain what will be done even using hand motion as a visual aid. Always followed by asking them “is that ok with you?” you can read the customer fairly accurately during the sale and if in doubt just give them the option to haul the chips away at extra cost or advise that they could use the chips for mulch.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

One guy I work with has a stipulation on stump grindings at the bottom of his contract/bid sheet. So all he has to do is write "Grind that stump $50".

These things can be little learning experiances.

I often come back to the west coast fella who had the client refuse to pay for a removal untill they cleaned out her gutters of 20 years of pine needles. The contract did say "remove all debris" after all! So he changed the wording to "Removal all debris generated by our work" or some such. But then you get the guy who is concerned about the light dusting of sawdust that the blower and rakes wont gety up.

Where do you stop the piddly little CYA clauses? Are they piddly if you end up loosing $200 on the extra cleanup?

<HR>

On the yelling at old ladies, I had one marginal bid that the lady was being so annoying with her chisling and wanting addons without adding on to the price.
So I called a buddy who worked in the area, told him what was going on and said he could try it if he wanted.

She did the same thing to him, probably trying to keep the person to person contact going as long as possinble...He finally goes off and says "You are crazy lady! Just absolutly crazy!" So she perks up, he closes the sale and she agrees to extra money for the extra work. now he goes back there every other year

 

[Stumper]

Brian,

Stumper I usually do not give people like that a second chance. I doubt I would have taken the job (or even bid it) if they had jerked me around in the past. What made you think that they would act differently THIS time?

Just a stupid desire to think the best of people.
And yeah I did the whole hand motion bit!

 

[Stumper]

Hmm... looking at my previous post I think I had better clarify. The "hand motion bit" is referring to what Silverblue said about explaining. I DID NOT flip off the lady.

 

[NickfromWI]

Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel
...Do you want to have to sign a written contract to buy a package of batteries? I don't think so. It wouldn't be worth the 10 minutes of paperwork, for the store OR the customer. ...

It seems whenever you buy something small from a store, you are entering in to a legal agreement. If you buy, say, a cd. Pink Floyd. You go pay for it, but sign no "contract." You pay in cash. You get home, the cd does not work. You can take it back and say, "Hey, I was expecting one thing. This is clearly not what I paid for. I'd like a refund or replacement." There is no contract because everything is clear.

In treework, as Stumper has demonstrated, things aren't always that clear. The customer can come out and say, "You said....." And all you can say is, "No, I said....."

A contract makes everything clear again. Stumper was lucky. They paid and he went home. They had every right to say, "I'm not paying you until you get that crap outta here. I don't want those nasty chips." He would have little legal recourse to protect him.

I say stick with the contracts.

love
nick

 

[Stumper]

No Nick, They did NOT have every right to say "I'm not paying until....". You are correct that they COULD have said that but it would not have been within their rights. The law is clear. Parol contracts are equally as binding as written ones. The unwritten contract is simply harder to prove. JPS has mentioned the guy who cleaned the gutters because the dirtbag he was working for said "the contract says cleanup all debris". A reasonable judge would have reamed the dirtbag out for wasting everyone's time. The problem for the arborist was that it was far simpler to clean the gutters than go to court-esp. since some of the people sitting on the bench aren't rational. If a person's word is no good their written signature isn't worth much more. For $50 I.m not going to court. I expect honesty from people and usually get it. Even if the job were $500 can we really explain going to court with a written contract in hand as economically sensible? Worthwhile in the pursuit of justice?-probably but an economic loss. The simpler solution would be to file a mechanic's lean against the property.- Still not an economic winner but a simpler route to justice and the recovery of one's money. Brian's reasoning matches mine on this -written contracts waste a lot of time. They make sense on large multifaceted jobs but none at all on a little stump job-esp since less than 1% of the people will be anything other than appreciative of my work.:angel:

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Originally posted by Stumper
...snip, snip...
written contracts waste a lot of time. They make sense on large multifaceted jobs but none at all on a little stump job-esp since less than 1% of the people will be anything other than appreciative of my work.:angel:

I have to tell you, this response surprises me.
The written bid is a great sales opportunity and a chance to look professional, thereby separating you from the fly-by-nights. It puts an 8x11" piece of paper with your company name, logo, and services offered, in a prominent place in their home from the time they get it, until the job is complete. It's like a pop-up ad that is on their dinning room table, but it doesn't annoy them!
It gives the customer peace of mind and makes the whole experience of hiring you less of a hassle.
An intelligent salesman can put together a bid sheet that is laid out in a "check the appropriate box" format that can act as a written bid, work order, and bill. It guides you through the 15 or 20 important questions that need answering, even on simple jobs (name, work number, email, do you want some chips, etc.).
To me, it would be much more hassle to have three separately written forms, have the crew need to ask the customer this or that, then wonder if it all got done. Not to mention misunderstandings with the customer, like what is to be done with the stump grindings, or do we leave the firewood, etc.
It's also a good time to get some of those nice ISA fliers into the customers hands, complete with your name and logo on the back. If they have mature trees, give them the "Caring for Mature Trees" flier, or whatever is appropiate.

 

[Dan F]

Stumper (or anyone else, for that matter)-
I'm wondering if you could fill me in a little more on the mechanic's lien? You've probably seen me say something about the old b*tch who is trying to screw us over on a lawn install we did this last spring. Something came up in our discussions at work the other day about putting a lien on her property (if necessary) to get her to back off.

Who has to file the lien? A lawyer I assume? How does the lien affect the homeowner exactly? Does it affect a credit report? I assume they wouldn't be able to sell the house without the lien being satisfied, or at least worked into the closing.... I assume you can file the lien to collect on unpaid work, would it be better to let a collection agency harrass them for it? I know you would only get a percentage of the money from a collection agency, but it you wanted to make the homeowner's life hell, then would that be better? What about collecting interest? Lotsa questions I know! I understand the concept, I just don't know about the details.......


Dan

 

[Stumper]

I have never filed one-most of my customers are great people. My understanding (which may be flawed-I listened to an explanation but never have tested it) is that at least in Colorado you do not need an attorney. You get some forms from the county clerk and fill them out swearing to the truth of your claim and pay a small filing fee. A lien is recorded against the property. It will show up on a credit report. The owner receives notice. Until the lien is released the property cannot be sold-a contract can be made but a title search will show the lien so it must be satisfied before closing. This is not the same as a judgement-you have to go to court for that, but it is presumed to be a valid debt until proven otherwise. If you file the lien falsely you can get in a heap of trouble (SUED) but if you are in the right they have to either pay you or take you to court and try to prove that you aren't owed the money before they can dispose of their property. If they aren't planning to sell and are a real dirtbag they might just let it sit but most people are intimidated by official papers showing a lien on their property.
If I've got it wrong I hope someone else will weigh in.:angel:

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

The first part of the process is a form called "Intent to File Lean". The county notifies the owner that you are going to file lean and they will be unable to sell their house, and there may be impending court action.
This step is free or almost free, and no lawyers are needed.
It takes some time but almost always works without actually getting a lawyer or going to court.
If they ignore this, then you have to decide if it's worth it to take them to court.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Down'ere my buddy says that you only have a limited time to file that lean, might be a lil'late on the lawn deal.....

Also, such action can block remortgaging, remodel supposedly, but he has never seen it taken that far when he did it. It would be something to check local laws on i believe, for all these 'angles'; asking questions about each item here.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

That's right, it comes up on their credit report. It could stop 'em from getting credit cards or loans too.

 

[Dan F]

Thanks guys!

I hope we don't have to get to that point, but it's good to know, ya know?

She paid us for everything we billed her for. If we do get to that point, it will be because of new bills, work that was done that she was not charged for at the time because we had no intention of charging her for it then... If she thinks she will get nasty, she hasn't seen our bill for lost work and time!

Thanks again!


Dan

 

[Lumberjack]

Back to the lady trying to micromanage you, in situations like that I simply ask the person to tie in and climb up. That way we will be on the same page, and I can see what they are saying. Never had anyone come up? I take showers every week? Why don't they like me? LOL Works for me.


Carl