A Felling Question

[pdqdl]

A humbolt undercut helps keep the tree from coming off the stump backwards. Having a tree fall and hit something causing the butt to fly up, i witnessed the effect that can have first hand. My first week learning to fall, green as grass! I got pinched in a tree, maybe 14" diameter. My boss was falling not far away, so i went and got him to cut me out. He cut it about chest hight, half way down it hit a snag leaning between 2 trees, and the butt flew up (just like in your video), catching my boss in his chest, lifted him up and threw him about 15 feet back, i was shocked, trying to remember some first aid, expecting blood an broken bones at least! Thankfully, he got up, swearing, brushed himself off and carried on back to his work, scared the crap outa me! Never a dull moment when trees are falling!

Yes on the humbolt, previously mentioned. It sounds like your boss should have been reading the advice in this thread about getting away from the butt of the tree before it could bite him. I'm sure he would have been much more satisfied with the results had he run like a scared 8 year old girl.

 

[MustangMike]

Thanks for the advice everyone, I dropped the Tulip today, and a 3 legged Willow (see the stump). I used Humbolt notches for the first time (on all of them) and on the Tulip (it was about 17' diameter) I angled the back cut slightly (leaving the hinge thicker away from the lean). It was a very calm morning, with a very slight breeze in the direction of the fall, so I did not bother to rope it.

All the felling went like clockwork, it was a good day. Thanks for all the advice, and I did use it.

That is 044 #2 with a 24" bar on the stump.

 

[pdqdl]

That doesn't look like a humbolt. Yours looks like this:

This be a humbolt:

 

[MustangMike]

I used the humbolt on each of the three legs when dropping them, then reduced the height of the stump, which is what you are looking at.

Thanks for the heads up, but I did get it.

 

[gomoto69]

That day is still burned in my memory, nearly 30 years later, and i'll tell you, everything happened so fast, one second the tree's just nicely going over, next second, swooosh! Butt of the tree's 20 feet in the air and my boss flying the other way! He was a , 2nd generation logger, probly close to 60 then, spent a lifetime logging (jimmy moore, anyone around my area might know the name) tough little guy! Opened my eyes wide open, i'll tell you that!

 

[pdqdl]

I used the humbolt on each of the three legs when dropping them, then reduced the height of the stump, which is what you are looking at.

Thanks for the heads up, but I did get it.

Y'er still typing; that's all that really counts in the end. Just keep trying to avoid the other forum. Membership to the Arboricultural Injuries is never honorary and always undesirable.

That would be a pretty big tulip tree. They don't get that big around here. We have lots of cottonwoods that big, though.

 

[MustangMike]

They grow huge around here, and seem to be everywhere, but I don't remember seeing many a few decades ago.

Trunks are generally very straight & tall.

It even had yellow flowers in the crown, you could not see them from the ground, only look yellow from the top.

Wikipedia says it is the tallest hardwood in the East, and that the trunk can get to 10'. I've never seen one that big, but trunks of 30-40" in diameter are not uncommon.

 

[Bwildered]

Rope it over? Only if I need to, although I consider it much easier and more secure than using a wedge.

I have a keen eye for tree balance, and I typically undercut the center of gravity on a tree with a deep face cut. I can easily set a rope, and I have all sorts of equipment to pull a tree if I need it. The hinge can fail, the cutter can make a mistake, too. In addition, we are usually cutting down some unhealthy compromised tree, so counting on a hinge and a wedge isn't that good a plan.

I was training a climber a week ago; we were sending down a 26" cottonwood. We had climbed and removed the branches that weighted the tree toward the fence we were obliged to miss. It was still leaning a bit to the west, and we wanted it to go to the SE. He wanted to put a rope on it and pull it over with my 9500 bobcat & winch, but I told him to just cut it down. I explained that we had a nice brisk wind in the direction we wanted it to go, and that it didn't matter if he dropped it the wrong way, so long as he missed the fence. He made a crappy face cut (not deep enough), then did a poor job on the back cut. He finished most of the back cut on the easy side, but was afraid to go around to the treacherous downhill side of the tree to make the hinge narrow enough to let the tree blow over. He was also rather reluctant to hang out on the side the tree was leaning toward, having almost cut the entire hinge off on the easy to reach uphill side.

The wind picked up a bit more, the back cut opened up a little bit, and I told him to deepen the back cut quick on the treacherous side. He did, the tree went the right direction, and all was well.

It took him too long to cut down the tree, and it was a prime candidate for the wedge technique. Too bad the dolts didn't even own a wedge so that they could use it. I also used that little lesson as an opportunity to explain to him that he really should have had a wedge on the job, too. You see, I have nothing against wedges and I insist that my crew always have at least three on every job, along with my splitting axe to drive them. In this particular case, I had hired a bunch of barely qualified hacks to help me finish a job, and they did a fine job of hacking down the trees that I needed cut down.

If the tree had gone the wrong way, it would only have been joining the several dozen other trees in the creek bottom that we had already cut down. In this particular case, I was just using my judgement to send a W leaner off to the SE with nothing more than a nice breeze. I would not have taken that chance next to something expensive.

I wouldn't be advocating training some one, then letting them not do a good face cut & then letting them do the difficult part of the back cut last which should have been done first. Seems a bit strange to me?
Thansk

 

[mdavlee]

There's huge poplar in WNC. Also a poplar forest in VA near Lynchburg. I think it's the Thomas Jefferson park. Lots of 5-6' ones

 

[Bwildered]

That day is still burned in my memory, nearly 30 years later, and i'll tell you, everything happened so fast, one second the tree's just nicely going over, next second, swooosh! Butt of the tree's 20 feet in the air and my boss flying the other way! He was a , 2nd generation logger, probly close to 60 then, spent a lifetime logging (jimmy moore, anyone around my area might know the name) tough little guy! Opened my eyes wide open, i'll tell you that!

Nearly a last generation logger.
Thansk

 

[bnmc98]

The hinge can fail, the cutter can make a mistake, too.

I was training a climber a week ago; we were sending down a 26" cottonwood. We had climbed and removed the branches that weighted the tree toward the fence we were obliged to miss. It was still leaning a bit to the west, and we wanted it to go to the SE. He wanted to put a rope on it and pull it over with my 9500 bobcat & winch, but I told him to just cut it down. I explained that we had a nice brisk wind in the direction we wanted it to go, and that it didn't matter if he dropped it the wrong way, so long as he missed the fence. He made a crappy face cut (not deep enough), then did a poor job on the back cut. He finished most of the back cut on the easy side, but was afraid to go around to the treacherous downhill side of the tree to make the hinge narrow enough to let the tree blow over. He was also rather reluctant to hang out on the side the tree was leaning toward, having almost cut the entire hinge off on the easy to reach uphill side.

The wind picked up a bit more, the back cut opened up a little bit, and I told him to deepen the back cut quick on the treacherous side. He did, the tree went the right direction, and all was well.

Congratulations, you just taught him a technique that could potentially kill him someday. everything you just described is a recipe for the tree coming over on top of him. And someday one will. He was the one with the wisdom.

You say you even know the hinge can fail and the cutter can make a mistake

You should have started the downhill lean side first and finished on the safe easy side. Also the side you can work with pulling the tree from.
If it was a mild lean then he might be ok but if he was as unskilled and and had messed up the other 3 cuts like you said, then that could have been disastrous for him... who cares about the property.

I have had them come over on me like that, (bye bye saw) the only reason I would cut like that is if I had no other choice. But, I still don't like doing it.

As far as your other post - I still hold to my statement.
"Trees don't have a tendency to jump backwards... unless you are cutting them wrong."

 

[Chris-PA]

I have a lot of Tulip and I love them. They are a unique NA tree (they are not poplars). In the woods they grow arrow straight and very tall, and exposed they have a beautiful shade tree shape. They get very big and are strong trees - they have fared far better in recent storms than the oaks have. The flowers are pretty too.

The wood is about half the mass of oak, but it burns hot and clean and starts easily. No wood could be easier to process than tulip - I always like to have some.

 

[Chris-PA]

 

[hseII]

" I hate it when I pinch my bar"

Pics of 4x" Ash

 

[Trx250r180]

View attachment 427756

I bet that creates a lot of wind when it goes down.........

 

[Chris-PA]

I bet that creates a lot of wind when it goes down.........

It's not really that big , about 26" DBH. I have lots of those, and expect it should still be standing when I'm gone.

 

[pdqdl]

I wouldn't be advocating training some one, then letting them not do a good face cut & then letting them do the difficult part of the back cut last which should have been done first. Seems a bit strange to me?
Thansk

The problem is that this was not an employee and that it was not exactly my position to "train". This was a young fellow working for another contractor who just happened to be a bit green, even by his own admission. I had previously discussed him learning things from me, but it certainly was not a formal training situation. Besides which, we were in a very low risk situation, and all it had to do was get to the ground without hitting a fence. [You guys that want to insist that there are no low risk situations, just pipe down! When you are in a high risk industry, there are still relative levels of risk.]

Part of my training style is to tell people how to do things, then let them try to do it. Review, then repeat. He and I had discussed how to set the tree where we wanted it, and I had told him how to make the face cut. After that, it was all on him. There wasn't any unusual risk to this tree, although he created some by leaving the last uncut part of the tree on the most difficult side of the tree: where there was no escape path. When he chickened out on the cut and asked me for advice, I had already walked up close, anticipating additional problems. We were both standing at the base of the 90% cut down tree while he diddled around with the saw, trying to reach the far side of the trunk. In the end, he acquired a rather valuable lesson and the tree ended up exactly where we planned, so yes! I think it was a fine lesson.

Some folks think that learning does not involve being exposed to your own stupidity, but I disagree. If you guys think about the things you have learned in your lives, you will understand that the most deeply ingrained lessons come from the personal experiences that turned out not so well, rather than through any formal education. Remember your first burn on the stove at home? I'll bet you remember real well your first bicycle wreck, the first time you fell off the swing set or got the wind knocked out of you. As I watched this young fellow making the cut on the tree, I was just shaking my head and thinking that perhaps next time he would listen to me a bit closer.

If I had thought he was in peril of injury, I would have stopped him. I didn't see the need, so I am not at all embarrassed to report this event in a thread about cutting down trees, carefully planning a leaning tree, and running from the stump.

 

[pdqdl]

Congratulations, you just taught him a technique that could potentially kill him someday. everything you just described is a recipe for the tree coming over on top of him. And someday one will. He was the one with the wisdom.

You say you even know the hinge can fail and the cutter can make a mistake. Yep. You cannot learn to do tree work from a book, and very few seem to be able to learn from watching. It MUST be "hands on"

You should have started the downhill lean side first and finished on the safe easy side. Yep. That was exactly what he learned from the experience and the review. He also will remember it better from having reached around the hard way. Also the side you can work with pulling the tree from. ?? I have no idea what this means.
If it was a mild lean (I believe that is what I said, isn't it?) then he might be ok [I'm so glad you see it my way!] but if he was as unskilled and and had messed up the other 3 cuts like you said [where did that come from? I said NOTHING about any messed up cuts or his relative experience] , then that could have been disastrous for him... who cares about the property. [I care about the property, and I care about the job, and I care about the people doing the work. If you cannot manage to miss the property, you have no control over the tree and you are doing it wrong. Furthermore, unlike some of you firewood enthusiasts or even the loggers, I am doing this at a customers request. My primary job is to satisfy the customers requirements. This generally means "DON'T CRUSH THE PROPERTY WITH YOUR STUPIDITY OR LACK OF EXPERTISE" Part of training someone HOW to cut down a tree involves training them on how to do the job profitably and how best to preserve your reputation, your job, and your customers loyalty.]

I have had them come over on me like that, (bye bye saw) the only reason I would cut like that is if I had no other choice. But, I still don't like doing it.

As far as your other post - I still hold to my statement.
"Trees don't have a tendency to jump backwards... unless you are cutting them wrong."

My comments in RED.

You are so wrong about tendency. A "tendency" is a predisposition, "an inclination toward a particular characteristic or type of behavior". I explained the forces involved, and I showed you a video that demonstrates that tendency. All the myriad threads at ArboristSite about barber-chair are only a reflection of how trees can propel themselves fatally backward off the stump to kill or maim the feller. Your assertions to the contrary only serve to demonstrate your stubbornness and your lack of understanding. If we are only quibbling about terminology, then I decline to continue that discussion. As to your statement, "cutting them right" does not eliminate the tendency, it only controls that tendency. Just give it up.

 

[bnmc98]

The problem is the way you worded everything in that post.
You said you trained him and then proceeded to tell us all the things that he did to set up the worst possible scenario for that situation, all under your supervision.

Now you say there was no escape route either.

You are in a thread about how to fell a tree and here is the scenario you just painted:

I trained a rookie
allowed him to make a non corrected butchered face cut
allowed him to cut almost all of the holding wood on the safe uphill non leaning side of the tree
Then told him to go to the "treacherous" side of the tree (which he felt uncomfortable doing) and finish the cut
Under the lean
with no escape route
and in the wind

It came across as a red mark in my book.

You say you would have stopped him if in peril, however, I am not convinced you have discernment for that based on your posts.

So I am speaking up because you still have not said it even though you have been called into question.

"DO NOT CUT A TREE THIS WAY!" unless you know what you are doing and can calculate the risks

 

[bnmc98]

Rope it over? Only if I need to, although I consider it much easier and more secure than using a wedge.

I have a keen eye for tree balance, and I typically undercut the center of gravity on a tree with a deep face cut. I can easily set a rope, and I have all sorts of equipment to pull a tree if I need it. The hinge can fail, the cutter can make a mistake, too. In addition, we are usually cutting down some unhealthy compromised tree, so counting on a hinge and a wedge isn't that good a plan.

I was training a climber a week ago; we were sending down a 26" cottonwood. We had climbed and removed the branches that weighted the tree toward the fence we were obliged to miss. It was still leaning a bit to the west, and we wanted it to go to the SE. He wanted to put a rope on it and pull it over with my 9500 bobcat & winch, but I told him to just cut it down. I explained that we had a nice brisk wind in the direction we wanted it to go, and that it didn't matter if he dropped it the wrong way, so long as he missed the fence. He made a crappy face cut (not deep enough), then did a poor job on the back cut. He finished most of the back cut on the easy side, but was afraid to go around to the treacherous downhill side of the tree to make the hinge narrow enough to let the tree blow over. He was also rather reluctant to hang out on the side the tree was leaning toward, having almost cut the entire hinge off on the easy to reach uphill side.

The wind picked up a bit more, the back cut opened up a little bit, and I told him to deepen the back cut quick on the treacherous side. He did, the tree went the right direction, and all was well.

It took him too long to cut down the tree, and it was a prime candidate for the wedge technique. Too bad the dolts didn't even own a wedge so that they could use it. I also used that little lesson as an opportunity to explain to him that he really should have had a wedge on the job, too. You see, I have nothing against wedges and I insist that my crew always have at least three on every job, along with my splitting axe to drive them. In this particular case, I had hired a bunch of barely qualified hacks to help me finish a job, and they did a fine job of hacking down the trees that I needed cut down.

If the tree had gone the wrong way, it would only have been joining the several dozen other trees in the creek bottom that we had already cut down. In this particular case, I was just using my judgement to send a W leaner off to the SE with nothing more than a nice breeze. I would not have taken that chance next to something expensive.

My comments in RED.

You are so wrong about tendency. A "tendency" is a predisposition, "an inclination toward a particular characteristic or type of behavior". I explained the forces involved, and I showed you a video that demonstrates that tendency. All the myriad threads at ArboristSite about barber-chair are only a reflection of how trees can propel themselves fatally backward off the stump to kill or maim the feller. Your assertions to the contrary only serve to demonstrate your stubbornness and your lack of understanding. If we are only quibbling about terminology, then I decline to continue that discussion. As to your statement, "cutting them right" does not eliminate the tendency, it only controls that tendency. Just give it up.

Dude, reread both (actually all) your posts before you give me crap