Let's talk about hacks/ ethics we should all have

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Valandscaper

ArboristSite Lurker
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Ok I do tree work part time. Iv always wanted to own and operate my own business and I have been fascinated with free work since the first time I saw a climber working. I'm a pretty young guy 25. I am insured and am smart enough to know my limitations. I climb for myself and have 2 groundies. Iv got a few friends with tree businesses that I ask questions when I need to, and a contract climber that I hire in when there is a tree outta my league. I have a full time job that right now I have to keep I can't afford to jump ship but hope to build to full time. Here's my problem. The climbing schools I have looked at all require full time employment in the industry so for me it = no classes. I do my best to make sure I'm not labeled as a hack. I price fairly I don't go try to under cut everyone. I'm out here to build my business and donit fairly And ethically. And I feel part of that is proper training but I can't get that because it at least appears that this industry isnt welcoming to people like me. Can anyone elaborate on this for me. I'm trying to do this as right as is possible for me but not being able to take training classes or ISA tests and studies it is kinda frustrating.
 
Well, you'll get no competition from me in these parts. I've limited my amateur "hack" services to friends, coworkers, and family ... yet I have a backlog of tree work. It's amazing how many "unofficial" tree service workers there are around here. After a good storm or mild hurricane, I know some supervisors & managers who will take a week off from their regular 9-to-5 in order to capitalize on the emergent tree removals.
 
You don't need to take an ISA test to do things ethically and fairly. You are or you are not. Those are choices you have to make every day.

I would say that good training is part of fairness to your clients though...they deserve somebody who knows what they are doing. I would say that STARTS with knowing about trees. If I am hiring you, I don't care how well you climb...I care that you know how to take care of my trees. If it takes you 6 hours and another guy 3 hours because they are better climber than you, as long as you aren't charging double to do the same job I don't care. Who has taken better care of teh tree is what matters.

They don't require anything to go to ISA meetings do they? Join the local chapter and go to as many meetings and trainings as you can. Go to the tree climbing competitions with the purpose to learning something. What trainings are you looking to do that you can't do without full time tree care experience? There are some that just should be that way...but there are plenty of others that are not.

There are many, many books that can teach a lot of that. You can learn a lot about climbing from videos and books too...but you really need to be in a tree to get better at that. Same with caring for the trees - but you can learn a higher % of that from books. What are you needing to learn. Maybe we can come up with a reading list to help get you going.
 
I should explain that I consider a hack to be the uninsured guy that cuts all our prices in half and lies about his inshurance. Although some of yall may consider me a hack I'm not sure. I'm also looking for your opinion of part time tree guys.
 
I was looking to take some climbing and rigging classes. Techniques/ climb systems. I climb on a Blake's because that what I know and I feel safe with although I'm sure there are many better options. I learned a lot from YouTube and low level practice as funny as that sounds it has really helped.
 
I consider "hacks" as people who hack-up trees. Sure...they tend to be the guys without insurance and cut-rate prices.

I don't care if you are full time or part time. I don't care how much you charge. If a client is dumb enough to hire you without insurance...I am not too sure that I even care if you have insurance.

If you take time to do things well, and pay for insurance, you will tend to come in line on pricing because that is what it takes....so I don't worry.

Sure, I am upset and scratch my head when I see unrepairable damage done to trees. But I know that people who saw that happen will not call the person that did that. In reality, for the most part, the "hacks" are serving a certain clientele who only want the low price and ask for their tree to be topped. So, educating clients is the key in my mind.

Quick story: I had a guy call a few years ago and asked "how much to trim a maple tree?". I explain that is hard to know. He says "can you come look...to tell you the truth, I have a buddy who is will top them for me and I just wanted to make sure the price was in line" I explain why topping is a bad idea. He asked if I can come out to look at his tree/explain on site what I was trying to explain. It was the end of the day...I called my wife "I am probably wasting an hour to go look at these trees...but what the heck". That ended up with a $600 job. He has had me back to prune 3 or 4 more trees and plant another 3. Customer educated. "Hack" lost a job. Trees are in good shape.
 
And there's nothing stopping u from say taking the climber specialist test for the isa. They want 18 months experience- as long as u have an invoice or something to show uve done work going back that far.
 
I should explain that I consider a hack to be the uninsured guy that cuts all our prices in half and lies about his inshurance. Although some of yall may consider me a hack I'm not sure. I'm also looking for your opinion of part time tree guys.

A 'Hack' don't know tree biology, they 'Hack'.
Jeff
 
There are two reasons I bring up the hack subject. Number 1 is there is a company here locally that advertises "licensed and insured" when in fact they are not. I have been behind them on 2 jobs where theyvhave been thrown off for lack of providing ins info. When cornered with the truth by a HO they fall back on trying to lower the price. They advertise via CL just like i do and in my mind at least it makes us all look bad and pushes clients to call one of the large companies around here. The second is there was a guy a year or so ago that went off about part timers posting in this forum and referred to anyone that dosent do the work full time as "hacks that are stealing work from the ones trying to make an honest living" . I don't know or pretend to know tree biology it is sompthing imam trying to learn as well. Iv turned down nearly every pruning job iv been called for and just been honest with the customer Letting them know I wasn't comfortable doing the job because I'm not sure of the effects it will have to the tree. I stuck with removals for now. And for the 18 month requirement for ISA I emailed them about the requirements I saw on their website and was told i need to provide invoices from 3 years.
 
Here is a reply I received from them hope it helps. I say just get it and send it in.

"Verifying is the most important thing we have to do to get you qualified for the Tree Worker Climber Specialist exam. If you do not have documentation to prove your 18 months, then you will need to ask your customers to write a reference letter for you. You will need two of them to show 18 months. One from 2012 and one from 2013. They need to state your name or business name, the type of work you did and the date. You can send the letters with a completed application. "
 
Yeah at this point I agree. It's funny that is completely not what they sent me but hey whatever works I'm just trying to learn and take the right steps.
 
There's far more to trees than cutting them, hacks don't tend to know or care, quite often they'll make stuff up or repeat wrong information to make them sound good.

A thirst for knowledge, constant learning and the determination to do the best you can is what separates arborists from hacks. Liking trees helps too

Sent from my GT-I9210T using Tapatalk
 
Hacks are people who do anything for money, cut every corner possible and are too cool for school. Most of the time they are bad drunks or druggies, who will price jobs, not at what they should be, but at what they need for the day. They poke fun at those who do it right, who wear PPE and go small to protect instead of going big to go home. They are the same ones missing fingers, have multiple court dates, long criminal history's with prison records and have no drivers license because of to many DWI's. Part time, full time, weekend warriors, it does not matter. As long as u do it right, do it safe and you are honest with yourself and your clients about your capabilities, you will be good. Being a CA does not determine if you are a hack or not. I know several CA's that got the cert, just for advertisement. They still take no true interest in the care of trees. They do horrible work, lion tail the hell out of trees or prune every thing up to about 30ft, leaving huge chunks of deadwood right above their work. They will do anything a client wants. They may want a tree topped, and instead of educating the client, they sign the deal. Even have made the statement on why they don't letter their trucks " I don't want anybody knowing who did this work" as if it is a business plan. I also know several guys who are not CA's that I consider mentors. They never bothered with the test, but are epic level Tree Jedi. It all comes down to the work ya do and how ya do it.
Keep in mind, as I often have to remind myself. No matter what, there will always be hacks. No matter what, they will never go away. This is bad for the trees and for our industry, but, hacks make it pretty easy to look good. I barely advertise. I have my site and I do a direct mailer to specific hoods. I put a add on CL just to piss off the hacks. I have a great rep....... sometimes I get a bad rap for not being to responsive to first time callers, there is only 24 hrs in a day after all. But as far as work goes, my rep is beyond reproach. Because of this and because there are many hacks in my area, I have more work than I can handle. I often get told that "we didnt realize that there are tree guys like you" Year by year, my client list grows. Most don't go to bid, they just call and tell me what they want. Tho, I still loose some to price. But in this economy, you will have that.

Never lower your standard to raise your average. I walk away from a lot of work. Homeowner's that don't want to hear it, just want it topped or trimmed in a jacked up way, I am not interested.

READ! There are many resources out there that you can exploit. Become a member of the ISA and the TCIA. They will send you all kinds of good info. The biggest thing, is to learn tree biology, once you understand how they work, everything else will come together.

There are a bazillion books out there. So you can get lost trying to figure out which ones are best before dropping a bunch of coin on them. Here are a few that I have read and I know many others on here have aswell. Not saying that these are the only ones, but these are the ones that seem to be the favorites.
1. Tree Climbers Companion - Jepson
2. Best Practices: Tree Pruning
3. Art and Science of Practical Rigging-Arbormaster
4. A New Tree Biology-Shigo
5. Arboriculture-Harris
6. Modern Arboriculture- Shigo
7. Diseases of Tree and Shrubs- Sinclair
8. Abiotic Disorders of Landscape Plants.

If you where to read all these, by the time you got thru them, you will be past the time requirements for the test and would probably run thru it pretty quick.
You can claim or say that you are a Arborist without being certified. As long as you look at the definition and it fits.
As far as learning the way of the Jedi, that can only be taught in the field, up a tree. Gotta find that guy who will spend the time to teach. You can learn a lot from the net, places like this, vids and webinars. But nothing beats getting grilled by a Pro Arb on a rope.

Moving this to 101
 
So would you call me a hack? I've been doing this for a long time. On and off since i was nine. Full time since i was 20 or 21.

Now i did have drug and alcohol problems. I was the guy with lot's of court dates and spent time in jail. However my problems were my problems and work was work. I always tried to do my best. Mind you i did top trees. I didn't know better at the time.
Im now 27, and im studying for my arb cert. Ive done away with drugs and alcohol and have 28 months clean and sober.
I still have a suspended license, but im blessed with a job that hass looked passed that. Its sux but i have one more year without it.
I cant get a conditional license with a drug charge.
 
I didn't do it or am not in it for the money.
Im sorry i took offense to what you said. But not every one that has problems are hacks.

Im in this line of work because of my love for tree's. Also the feeling of freedom working in this feild.
 
I didn't do it or am not in it for the money.
Im sorry i took offense to what you said. But not every one that has problems are hacks.

Im in this line of work because of my love for tree's. Also the feeling of freedom working in this feild.
 
You can have new trucks, insurance and good gear and still be a hack. What so many homeowners don't seem to understand is it takes a certain level of knowledge and competence to correctly take care of trees. I could build a retainer wall out of block, read a few books from the home depot, but who would you rather have build yours a master mason or me? Doing sub grade work even if your bidding competitive is still sub grade work. You can't tare a tree down and rebuild it though, it takes one hack job to ruin a tree for ever. People have a lot of time invested in their trees, it's a shame they'll let a center piece of there yard that may of taking 25 to 100 years to grow get ruined by some inexperienced fool with a chainsaw.
some are ignorant, and some just greedy and don't care.
 
I got into this for the challenge. Every tree is different each with its own problems and hurdles to overcome. The rigging and climbing techniques are pretty standard but can be adapted in do many ways that it stays interesting. It's hard work no doubt and in sure inexperience just makes it harder but after years of practice and time in the tree it will all be worth it.
 

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