Gregg said they're from Taiwan....
046BB aftermarket P&C kit FAILED!! Don't buy them.
- Thread starter Martinm210
- Start date
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Gregg said they're from Taiwan....
Jacob J will know. He is the know all when it comes to swapping pistons.
Put an OEM used 046/460 cylinder on it with a Meteor 046 piston or an 064 piston...I built a 440 for a member here that has a first-generation BB 044 cylinder and an OEM 064 piston that was turned down a bit.
2000ssm6
Stihl User
was, as in past tense....yeah, great guitarist, and I really didn't appreciate him until he was gone
I know, I was saying to this day he is stihl the best blues picker even though he is gone.:rockn:
excess650
Addicted to ArboristSite
RiverRat2
Serio Tree Freak
Hmmmm???????
I wouldnt put one together without checking if it was needed :
my first 460 BB saw has been running 2 1/2 years
Guess I got lucky cause it needed no Champhering after I got done Porting it!!!! LOLOL!!!!!
I wouldnt put one together without checking if it was needed :
my first 460 BB saw has been running 2 1/2 years
Guess I got lucky cause it needed no Champhering after I got done Porting it!!!! LOLOL!!!!!
Dan_IN_MN
Addicted to ArboristSite
I know that there are "should haves" "could haves"......
IF "If ifs and buts were candy and nuts.... it would be Christmas time the whole year though".... Author unknown....
That being said...
Was there any hint of the ring catching the port when you turned it over without the plug in? I know that this shouldn't have to be something that one needs to check on a developed/designed piston and cylinder.
IF "If ifs and buts were candy and nuts.... it would be Christmas time the whole year though".... Author unknown....
That being said...
Was there any hint of the ring catching the port when you turned it over without the plug in? I know that this shouldn't have to be something that one needs to check on a developed/designed piston and cylinder.
CentaurG2
Addicted to ArboristSite
What a shame. All that work for nothing. Whelp the best you can do is chalk it up as a learning experience and as we all know education costs money. Good luck with your saw.
If those grooved rings are so great I'd expect them to be OEM on Stihls, Huskys, and Dolmars.
Why is that not so? POS?
You also should not have to "port" your new cylinder to keep the cheap rings from hanging up.
Why is that not so? POS?
You also should not have to "port" your new cylinder to keep the cheap rings from hanging up.
:agree2::agree2:
I don`t know if anyone asked this but where were the locator pins in the ring groove located on the piston?
Pioneerguy600
Pioneerguy600
skid row
ArboristSite Guru
:agree2:
Martinm210, just don't make the same mistake twice as the BB kits are cheap for a reason.
Grande Dog
ArboristSite.com Sponsor
Howdy All,
That was certainly a ring issue. They are supposed to be ductile. It's obvious that your set wasn't. We had some of these rings come through our product with the same results. I purged the suspect product we had by receipt date. It's not perfect but, I think we caught 99.9% of what we had left on the shelf. To throw fuel on the fire, we consistently out sell our demand. So when the kits come in we have hundreds go out at a time. If there are any issues, it slams us hard. As you can tell (members posts) these kits run the gambit from not even starting before damage, to great performance for for extended periods of time. As it's been mentioned before, by far the issues have been with the rings and piston pin clips. It's not that they're mis-manufactured, it's a problem of getting the right product in the right box. We have started negotiations with a third party UL certified, quality insurance inspectors. I'll be heading to Taiwan in the next couple months to iron this deal out. I'm not sure what it will do to the costs of the kits but, I can't imagine it costing more than reputation.
The 046 Big Bore kit is going through the same changes we're doing on the 066 Big Bore. The piston skirt is being shortened to alleviate crankcase clearance issues. This will mean raising the exhaust port approximately the same amount the piston is being shortened to prevent freeporting at TDC. We will also be decreasing the the cylinder dome volume about 1cc to get better compression. Somewhere in production we'll change to the lighter OEM piston pin style.
I'll keep hammering on these issues until this product becomes a no brainer for us, and the end users. We've been wanting to get a third party inspector for quite awhile, and it looks like we're getting very close now.
Regards
Gregg
PS If the person you bought it from won't replace it, let me know, and I'll hook you up.
That was certainly a ring issue. They are supposed to be ductile. It's obvious that your set wasn't. We had some of these rings come through our product with the same results. I purged the suspect product we had by receipt date. It's not perfect but, I think we caught 99.9% of what we had left on the shelf. To throw fuel on the fire, we consistently out sell our demand. So when the kits come in we have hundreds go out at a time. If there are any issues, it slams us hard. As you can tell (members posts) these kits run the gambit from not even starting before damage, to great performance for for extended periods of time. As it's been mentioned before, by far the issues have been with the rings and piston pin clips. It's not that they're mis-manufactured, it's a problem of getting the right product in the right box. We have started negotiations with a third party UL certified, quality insurance inspectors. I'll be heading to Taiwan in the next couple months to iron this deal out. I'm not sure what it will do to the costs of the kits but, I can't imagine it costing more than reputation.
The 046 Big Bore kit is going through the same changes we're doing on the 066 Big Bore. The piston skirt is being shortened to alleviate crankcase clearance issues. This will mean raising the exhaust port approximately the same amount the piston is being shortened to prevent freeporting at TDC. We will also be decreasing the the cylinder dome volume about 1cc to get better compression. Somewhere in production we'll change to the lighter OEM piston pin style.
I'll keep hammering on these issues until this product becomes a no brainer for us, and the end users. We've been wanting to get a third party inspector for quite awhile, and it looks like we're getting very close now.
Regards
Gregg
PS If the person you bought it from won't replace it, let me know, and I'll hook you up.
Last edited:
RiverRat2
Serio Tree Freak
Yep!!!! I built an 044 W/ usedOEM 460 Jug&Slug :agree2: did some port work and milled the jug base, Popped up the piston,,,, w/fresh OEM Stihl rings,,,
It is undoubtedly my most favorite saw,,,,
Martinm210
ArboristSite Operative
Thanks guys, I appreciate all the discussion and offers.
I've ordered two Meteor 066 piston/ring kits. One I'm going to try and machine down to work for this 046BB kit with perhaps a thicker base gasket. I'm also going to round out that exhaust port more OEM style. But even if I have to raise the exhaust a little, I'll be making up for some lost compression with the pop-up piston. If that doesn't work and/or it fails yet again, I'll just toss this aftermarket kit and order an OEM 046 as I should have done in the first place. If you figure in your time to do the rebuild, it's really not much of any savings especially when it turns out like this.
The other I'm going to use in my 066. It has a brand new 066BB kit in it right now, but I've got a good spare 066 OEM jug for it on hand. I think I'm going to take that BB kit out and put the OEM 066 jug in there, I had planned to tear it back down and replace the crank bearings and seals in it anyway, so while I'm in there I'm going to loose the BB kit.
So far I've only heard good things about those Meteor piston/rings. I just wish they made jugs too.
The price is obviously attractive for the kits today, something like 1/3rd the OEM price. I would encourage the manufacturers to consider a higher priced kit of higher quality. Something like 1/2 to 2/3rds the cost of OEM at a quality of OEM should be feasible I would think.
I think the rings themselves were the primary cause of my failure. There was no indication that there was any sort of hangup of the rings when testing things out by hand. I had it together over a week on my desk with plenty of time to feel it out. While the ports were fairly square, there was some rounding at the top and bottom and the chamfers looked ok. The ring also has a "VERY" clean fracture on one side as if it was simply shattered, the other side has more deformation in the failure. So I think the ring simply cracked (perhaps already had some sort of micro stress crack), hung out at the exhaust port and sheared off. I personally don't like the grooved ring design, that's adding stress points reducing the cross section of the ring itself to provide strength. If this grooved ring was a superior design, I have to think it would be more common.
To me, I see two flaws with these kits. The ports are entirely too square which doesn't allow the rings to retract smoothly at the port openings. The second is poor ring design and quality. I've seen other quality issues with the squish bands and casting flash, but those are not things that would cause failure as happened here. A QC inspector would be a great start, but I think there are design issues here as well (port shape and rings).
At a bare minimum I would recommend porting work is done (rounding of the ports) and the rings are replaced with a more standard solid higher quality ring. Ring quality should be the #1 priority.
That's my 2c.
As frustrating as it is, I never consider anything a waste of time. I've learned alot from this. I was aware of some of these issues prior to purchasing and installing. I've even heard of the same type of failure and crossed my figures with the thought of "Oh that's a freak occurrence, it won't happen to me, I'll check it out really good and clean up the ports if they are really bad". Unfortunately my choice was go for it and take on the risk. My result is failure with an expensive education!!
FYI, The ebay seller did respond to me with the following:
He doesn't think there is a problem with the ring and blames the port shape and chamfer. I agree with the port shape, but the chamfering looked ok. Obviously I'm not going to install another of these same pistons and rings. It might be ok, but until they change the rings to something different, I simply wouldn't trust them.
Cheers to a good learning experience and all the great info..
I've ordered two Meteor 066 piston/ring kits. One I'm going to try and machine down to work for this 046BB kit with perhaps a thicker base gasket. I'm also going to round out that exhaust port more OEM style. But even if I have to raise the exhaust a little, I'll be making up for some lost compression with the pop-up piston. If that doesn't work and/or it fails yet again, I'll just toss this aftermarket kit and order an OEM 046 as I should have done in the first place. If you figure in your time to do the rebuild, it's really not much of any savings especially when it turns out like this.
The other I'm going to use in my 066. It has a brand new 066BB kit in it right now, but I've got a good spare 066 OEM jug for it on hand. I think I'm going to take that BB kit out and put the OEM 066 jug in there, I had planned to tear it back down and replace the crank bearings and seals in it anyway, so while I'm in there I'm going to loose the BB kit.
So far I've only heard good things about those Meteor piston/rings. I just wish they made jugs too.
The price is obviously attractive for the kits today, something like 1/3rd the OEM price. I would encourage the manufacturers to consider a higher priced kit of higher quality. Something like 1/2 to 2/3rds the cost of OEM at a quality of OEM should be feasible I would think.
I think the rings themselves were the primary cause of my failure. There was no indication that there was any sort of hangup of the rings when testing things out by hand. I had it together over a week on my desk with plenty of time to feel it out. While the ports were fairly square, there was some rounding at the top and bottom and the chamfers looked ok. The ring also has a "VERY" clean fracture on one side as if it was simply shattered, the other side has more deformation in the failure. So I think the ring simply cracked (perhaps already had some sort of micro stress crack), hung out at the exhaust port and sheared off. I personally don't like the grooved ring design, that's adding stress points reducing the cross section of the ring itself to provide strength. If this grooved ring was a superior design, I have to think it would be more common.
To me, I see two flaws with these kits. The ports are entirely too square which doesn't allow the rings to retract smoothly at the port openings. The second is poor ring design and quality. I've seen other quality issues with the squish bands and casting flash, but those are not things that would cause failure as happened here. A QC inspector would be a great start, but I think there are design issues here as well (port shape and rings).
At a bare minimum I would recommend porting work is done (rounding of the ports) and the rings are replaced with a more standard solid higher quality ring. Ring quality should be the #1 priority.
That's my 2c.
As frustrating as it is, I never consider anything a waste of time. I've learned alot from this. I was aware of some of these issues prior to purchasing and installing. I've even heard of the same type of failure and crossed my figures with the thought of "Oh that's a freak occurrence, it won't happen to me, I'll check it out really good and clean up the ports if they are really bad". Unfortunately my choice was go for it and take on the risk. My result is failure with an expensive education!!
FYI, The ebay seller did respond to me with the following:
He doesn't think there is a problem with the ring and blames the port shape and chamfer. I agree with the port shape, but the chamfering looked ok. Obviously I'm not going to install another of these same pistons and rings. It might be ok, but until they change the rings to something different, I simply wouldn't trust them.
Cheers to a good learning experience and all the great info..
Last edited:
mtngun
Addicted to ArboristSite
Thanks for the update, Grande Dog. I knew you would be on top of this.
Haywire Haywood
Fiscal Conservative Social Retard
Wow... what else is there to say? That's not customer service cause he wasn't a customer. That's just service, period.
good going Gregg
,Ian
TRI955
I'm the man in the box
This is the way to take care of customers, well, even noncustomers!!!!! Rep headed your way Gregg.....
Paul001
Addicted to ArboristSite
From a competitor of yours, well done. It is service such as that, that continues to push and force our industry to improve.
While I am not an overall fan of your project I appreciate your hard work and determination to improve your product quality.
Tip of the hat to you...
Martinm210
ArboristSite Operative
No kidding, I've always only bought saw parts from either Bailey's, ebay, or my local dealer. As you can see here, my service from the ebay seller was selling me more parts for what he calls a "Discount", but that's more than what I could buy that piston for at Bailey's.
Needless to I'll continue to do all my ordering from Bailey's, I may even start doing my OEM parts orders there as well. They were offering to take care of me even though I didn't buy this kit there. I would have done so if they weren't out of stock at the time.
Kudos to above and beyond customer (and non-customer) service..
Needless to I'll continue to do all my ordering from Bailey's, I may even start doing my OEM parts orders there as well. They were offering to take care of me even though I didn't buy this kit there. I would have done so if they weren't out of stock at the time.
Kudos to above and beyond customer (and non-customer) service..
excess650
Addicted to ArboristSite
[/B]
This is the way to take care of customers, well, even noncustomers!!!!! Rep headed your way Gregg.....
I would have repped him if I could have!
