A reality check for a wannabe CS miller please.

[KiwiBro]

What will it cost a novice (to milling, not to chainsaws) to get set-up to mill his first log please and what sort of mill and accessories should I be considering? Also, how much wood and time am I likely to devour before I'm likely to be producing slabs someone is willing to pay for?

Logs I've got lined up are about 40" wide and many are just shy of 20' long, but there hopefully will be wider ones in the future and perhaps not so long. I have no saw but am eyeing up a 100cc powerhead. I have no bar.

What I'm hoping to do is work out whether this first lot of logs could come close to at least paying for the gear needed (excluding the powerhead) so my payback period is reasonably short, and I'd have my time only invested as a way to pay the milling gear off.

Can anyone help take this novice through the in's and outs and what I need and what it will cost please?

If I were to take a stab at what I need:
Alaskan MK-III C2 Mill 48" kit (but does it really have to be .404" pitch chain?)
Rail extensions
A few loops or a roll of what chain?
'bout time I bought a grinder anyway
what sorts of spares would be useful to have on hand?


Have I missed anything?
What sort of bars do those kits come with and are there better alternatives (I'm a Tsumura devotee but CSM is a different ball game)?


Thanks in advance.

 

[BobL]

Cost recovery with CS milling is highly problematic - if this is your main driver for milling I'd suggest getting a bandsaw or swing mill. While the initial cost is higher, the payback time will be quicker and far less effort

Have you got a firm buyer for the timber or are you just hoping to be able to sell it once it is milled. If so, unless it is a very exotic log be prepared for butter (NZ spelling ) disappointment.

On a more general perspective I would not recommend starting to learn with 40" diam log, 20" would be much better

 

[StephenA]

I think you are going to have a tough road ahead if you choose a CS mill.
Just to give a perspective, I've been CS milling for 2 years now, just for my own cabin. CS milling is not a fast option. nowhere close to fast. I've just upgraded to a Sthil MS660 so I don't work one of the smaller saws to death. That has made a huge difference in time.
It excels at hard to reach lumber, where you can't bring a mill to it, or you don't have the equipment to move it. It works great to weird shaped trees. I have a lot of forked top trees (They make interesting chairs) that I've milled that a hobby sized band-saw would never handle.
I don't think I could ever make money back from this investment if I was doing it for profit. I spend to much time fiddling with the system to make it work profitably. Then again, I'm not trying to.
But (there is always a but...) a CS mill would be handy for cutting those logs in half so you could load them onto a sawmill.

There are others on the board that know Sawmills, so I will let them comment on that topic. I'm just an Expert (ex is a 'has been' and a spurt is a drip under pressure) on CS milling. As I posted on another thread, get the book 'Chainsaw Lumber Making' by Will Malloff. I have a softcopy that I downloaded from Scribd

Maybe someone here has experience on the Ripsaw CS band-saw mill? I've only seen pictures. I think its called a Ripsaw. please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Doss]

I have some experience with exactly what you're thinking about. I have a 66" bar on an MS880 cutting 30-50" wide by 8-16' long logs. Here are some thoughts:

1. Chainsaw mills on logs of this size are slow. How slow? It can take me 30 minutes plus to make one pass.
2. The lumber you're going to make is going to need some work unless your buyer doesn't mind rough cuts.
3. You're going to need a lot of time (remember when I said it was slow?).
4. You're going to waste a lot of wood. If you're trying to get maximum yield, chainsaw mills are not the way to go.
5. I hope you're strong and reasonably fit. Big logs take a good bit of muscle to work on. The slabs are heavy if you're cutting 2-4" thick and just passing the saw through the cut can be a workout sometimes.
6. You're going to get covered in saw dust. Lots of saw dust (read #4 again).
7. You're going to get to a time very quickly (if you have a lot of logs to cut) that you're going to be mad at yourself for not buying a large bandsaw mill or paying someone else to cut it. Don't get me wrong. I like cutting wood. But it sure is a hassle when all I really want to do is build furniture.

What you're going to need:

1. A big saw: MS660 or MS880 if you're going with a Stihl.
2. An Alaskan mill kit (mill, bar, chain)
3. Time
4. Something straight and level like a ladder or 2 2x6's built like a ladder (to pass the mill on for the first cut).
5. Lots of chain oil. I have about 4 or 5 gallons of it with me normally... but that's for several hours of cutting and I usually have a LOT left over.
6. Lots of fuel. I can burn about 4 to 5 gallons of this on a long day.
7. Extra chain. Plan on having at least 1 chain for every hour or so you plan on cutting. If you plan on doing this, it might be better to buy a 100' reel and a breaker/press).
8. Chain files. Learn to use them effectively.
9. Pry bars, hammers, and other things for moving/working on slabs and logs.
10. Tow Chain/straps and a truck... just in case.
11. Ratchet set
12. Good ear and eye protection. Just the sound can wear you out .
13. Good gloves (hopefully something will reduce the vibration of the saw).
14. Time
15. Lots of fluids to consume
16. Wedges... lots and lots of wedges
17. A quality dust mask. Something like a 3M 7000-series. You don't want to breathe in that dust.
18. A portable work table for changing your bar, chain, etc.
19. A spare air filter, chain tensioner (don't ask me how I figured this out), and bar.
20. A small secondary chainsaw. That comes in handy like you wouldn't believe.
21. Time
22. Extra hands (friends... not literally extra hands). Spare arms would be awesome though... like Dr. Octopus... focus Doss... you're getting off topic
23. A spare saw if possible
24. A good 2' or longer level. I trust my Stabilas.
25. Tape measure
26. Broom and/or blower to clean the work area. Lots of dust and chips accumulate.
27. Zip ties in all lengths
28. Tubing for your auxiliary oiler. You will damage the factory one eventually.
29. Duct and electrical tape. You will use it... trust me.
30. Nails, screws, various hardware.... you never know when you'll need it.


That's probably not everything, but it gives you an idea. If you plan on actually offering more finished lumber, get ready to incur even more expenses. Planers, jointers, large vertical bandsaws, etc. are not cheap.

 

[StephenA]

Doss,
That was well said. thank you.

 

[Doss]

No problem Stephen. Thanks for the recognition.

Some other things to think about. I don't know if that 48" kit will be enough. Remember that the 48" kit only cuts about 46" (if you're lucky). The powerheads to run these big bars are expensive. Keep that in mind. This is not some $1000 investment. Realistically, if you're starting with nothing, minimum you should expect to spend is probably about $2200 on start up. That's not counting extra powerheads, saws, etc.

Also, I forgot a few items that I know I use all the time (and is probably why I forgot them). I edited my list above.

 

[KiwiBro]

Thank you for the reality check.

Just what the Dr ordered.

 

[Doss]

Thank you for the reality check.

Just what the Dr ordered.

That's what we're here for. I'll tell you this right now, had I known all this going in, I would've bought a small DIY bandsaw mill (like a 36") instead. I wanted to use all of the slab so I went with a chainsaw mill.

I probably have more money tied up in chainsaws and associated stuff than that bandsaw mill would've cost.

There are reasons to get a chainsaw mill though.

1. You're not cutting much wood. If this involves more than 10 large logs, start evaluating other options even if they seem more expensive.
2. You're not cutting wide wood. Once you pass 24-30" wide, the bandsaw mill options get expensive. You really need to figure out if you're going to use wood this wide or wider though. Don't think it's easy to turn a slab into a table though. Drying wood will drive you crazy.
3. Portability... especially to sites that are, for the most part, inaccessible to automobiles.
4. You have a lot of time.
5. You want the lowest cost set up for small projects. If all you want to do is cut up 3 or 4 20" trees, get a chainsaw mill. If you want to cut up 10-20+ 20" trees, get a bandsaw mill or call a sawyer.


Hope that helps. It was not meant to discourage you, just shine a light on things you might not know or see coming into this. It's that low cost of entry that tricks most of us.

Also, moving logs is no fun at all if you don't have heavy equipment or at least a really strong truck. I drag a lot of logs with my F250 diesel and it's still not easy.

 

[BobL]

If you want to save money and you or a friend can weld you can very quickly weld up a basic mill and set of rails for much less than the retail cost of a CS mill. This way you can at least try it out. My first CS mill cost me the price of a few welding rods, about $10 worth of scrap metal SHS and about $5 worth of tensile nuts and bolts. If you don't have welding access you can also make it out of wood.

 

[KiwiBro]

Whilst I don't like seeing good wood not being used, I may have to forget about it until I can afford a portable sawmill, although I'll keep an eye out for any local used deals.

 

[Doss]

If you have a small saw already, you can still use the wood for something. Even cutting it roughly it in half (diameter) or into more manageable sizes like 6, 8, and 10 feet and storing them somewhere (out of the sun, off the ground, and under cover). Sure, the wood will be harder to cut, but at least it won't go to waste.

 

[boatman]

As stated above, chainsaw milling is slow and cumbersome. But, it all fit's in the back of my Saturn. I then drive 5 hours North to where a friend is building a cabin, transfer the milling stuff to his truck, and we drive 3 miles up a unimproved two track, across a home made bridge and up a steep hill using stumps for traction. That's where we are building his cabin. We just have a winch to move the logs so it is real nice to mill them in place.

Some times I drive an hour away to a friends 400 acres where he has a big old Cherry tree in the way. Or a local tree service has a nasty old yard walnut that nobody wants.

I find set up to take up most of my time, cutting seems fast in comparison. Sharpening is a nice break. I just don't measure progress in board feet. I prefer to end the day having finished all the joists, or have a nice stack of 2x4 for the new milk room.

 

[StephenA]

Boatman, Those reasons you listed are why I bought my CS mill. Its not to make money.

The CS mill really takes Doss' points 3, 14, and 21 to really make it work. Exactly what you don't have when you are trying to make a profit.

-on a side note, My dyslexia has me typing backwards. Don't be surprised if you see me typing SC Mill instead of CS mill or other nonsense. Next thing I know, I'll be building the house backwards...:redface:

 

[BobL]

5. Lots of chain oil. I have about 4 or 5 gallons of it with me normally... but that's for several hours of cutting and I usually have a LOT left over.
6. Lots of fuel. I can burn about 4 to 5 gallons of this on a long day.

Crikey, I have never used half this much oil and fuel in one long day.

 

[Hillbilly3995]

Crikey, I have never used half this much oil and fuel in one long day.

Yeah Bob me either. To the original poster these guys are telling it like it is and let me assure you
BobL Wrote the exam to get a PhD in chain milling.

That said I guess you guys would freak out the way I do it, but I guess I'll need to make a video.
I NEVER use wedges. My last day out I milled 150-180 Bft on near two gallons of gas. in about
6 hours. I use a slabbing saw that follows a 2X6 rail to cut a flat on the log,or cut into a square cant, then use an alaskan to cut lumber. Theres a long learning curve and do not expect to make money, not that it cant happen, but its the exception not the rule.

 

[Doss]

Crikey, I have never used half this much oil and fuel in one long day.

HA! I said I had some left over. Usually by all day, I mean I'm out there for about 8-12 hours running 2 saws almost around the clock (2 hands = 2 saws... wait, that's wrong. 2 people = 2 saws and a blower :msp_tongue. So Hillbilly3995, your usage works out to roughly the same as mine.

I just wanted him to be prepared for fuel and oil. I'm sure most people only use about a gallon of each at the most, but they're probably using smaller saws on smaller logs. I run the MS880 wet (soaked in bar oil) as much as possible with the auxiliary oiler. Is that wrong? Maybe.

I'm not arguing with you pros, I'm just talking from my own experiences.

About wedges, I don't know how you guys keeps the slabs from pinching down on the bar. I don't have a big problem with it in the red oak I cut, but the water oak tends to clamp down on the bar a little bit (not much, but it's noticeable). That's just physics. Also, it's a lot easier to get a big slab moving (3-4" thick) if you have it on wedges as opposed to being flat on the log. If you have a log that's 40-50" across and 10-16' long, eventually it's going to pinch a little bit on the bar. If I don't wedge it, I end up cutting the bottom of the slab again with the see-sawing I do and getting out of the cut will not be fun.

 

[Dave Boyt]

Not too many band saws handle 40" diameter logs. Even if you get a band mill (and I go along with this recommendation), you may still need to slab them down with a chain saw mill just to get them to a size the band mill can handle. For wide slab table tops, I quarter the big logs with the chain saw mill, mill the quarters with the band mill, carefully keeping the boards in sequence so that I can glue the halves back together after the slabs are dry. This reduces drying defects, and makes the pieces easier to handle.

 

[sachsmo]

Just do it,

The first time you open up any log, you will see why so many get hooked.

It aint about money or time, it's that high you get from making something you can't buy.

CS millin' is work, but the benefits are "priceless"

 

[pete_86]

Just do it,

The first time you open up any log, you will see why so many get hooked.

It aint about money or time, it's that high you get from making something you can't buy.

CS millin' is work, but the benefits are "priceless"

I know this is an old thread, but I just found it by searching and I gotta say I hate how long and how much work it can be, but it keeps me busy, gives me a reason to run my saw, and if you keep at it you'll be surprised at the piles of lumber you'll get. Mill a bit here and there and you'll have lots of lumber. I just started about a yr ago and have a small barn full. I like having the lumber for building or woodworking. If I spend about $60 on boards at Lowes or I spend an hr or two milling I figure I've paid myself $30 to $60 an hr plus whatever time it takes to get logs and stack the wood to dry.

Wish I had a band mill though, it's a lot of work, but right now I'd never be able to afford one and for 1/4 of the price I have acess to rough cut lumber. I keep reminding myself that because just about every time something breaks on saw or I never get enough work done I'll swear I'm buying a mill and tossing the CS mill, but than sticker shock sets in. Haha, hope everyone is milling boards and havin fun. Old thread but fig some newbies may find interesting.

 

[pete_86]

Also just built a cabinet for canned goods, my gf loves it! I told her I was done milling after I spent a day heaving logs around and came home dead tired. should've seen her jaw drop in disappointment. She loves what I make around the house for near free. I recommend everyone get some proper equipment. I only have small trailer and hand winch and have a hard time with large 5' logs getting them loaded if it's on a hillside. My goal for now is to keep a band mill in the future but work on getting a better trailer setup.