arborists vs. rec climbers

[rmihalek]

ropensaddle's post in the tie-in-point thread got me thinking a little about what rec climbers can learn from arborists and (hold on to your hardhat) what arborists can learn from rec climbers.

I've climbed with both categories of climbers and I'd like to offer my perspective.

Overall, folks who work in trees for a living seem to be able to do everything FAST. On group climbs, the arborists have their gear out, their throw bags set, their TIP established, etc. before I'm even done trying to identify the type of tree we're climbing. Once in the tree, the arborists seem really at ease moving around in the crown, re-setting TIPs, limb walking and setting new lines. Once I'm in the crown, I like to eat some food, have a sip of energy drink, get out the camera/binoculars or maybe see if I can lay flat on a big limb without falling off.

I think what rec climbers can learn from the arborist is to feel free to move around, limb walk, rig down dead wood and do other things like that. Maybe the arborists can feel comfortable kicking back, relaxing and taking it all in without a "job clock" running. I know several arborists who've commented on how quiet it is in the tree during a rec climb: no saws, no chippers, no bosses.

Life is a continuum, shades of gray, not black and white. I don't want to stereotype any one person, just offer some general perspective. So, take it with a grain of salt....

 

[jomoco]

ropensaddle's post in the tie-in-point thread got me thinking a little about what rec climbers can learn from arborists and (hold on to your hardhat) what arborists can learn from rec climbers.

I've climbed with both categories of climbers and I'd like to offer my perspective.

Overall, folks who work in trees for a living seem to be able to do everything FAST. On group climbs, the arborists have their gear out, their throw bags set, their TIP established, etc. before I'm even done trying to identify the type of tree we're climbing. Once in the tree, the arborists seem really at ease moving around in the crown, re-setting TIPs, limb walking and setting new lines. Once I'm in the crown, I like to eat some food, have a sip of energy drink, get out the camera/binoculars or maybe see if I can lay flat on a big limb without falling off.

I think what rec climbers can learn from the arborist is to feel free to move around, limb walk, rig down dead wood and do other things like that. Maybe the arborists can feel comfortable kicking back, relaxing and taking it all in without a "job clock" running. I know several arborists who've commented on how quite it is in the tree during a rec climb: no saws, no chippers, no bosses.

Life is a continuum, shades of gray, not black and white. I don't want to stereotype any one person, just offer some general perspective. So, take it with a grain of salt....

I'm alot easier in my zen karma zone when I'm cabling or bracing a tree to assist it's long term survival, rather than strategically cutting it into pieces as it bleeds to death.

A true journeyman arborist is keenly aware of the fact that trees are far better off without us around at all.

jomoco

 

[Adkpk]

When I first started to landscape I was deeply bothered by all the cutting. I never knew I could actually feel for the life of a plant. Even grass. But I kept cutting. Now I have cut greenery for more than half my life. Jomoco, I find what you said,"A true journeyman arborist is keenly aware of the fact that trees are far better off without us around at all. To be both profound and inspiring. It also showed courage. Mihalek same to you for starting this. Hopefully this thread will generate this kind of thinking.
30 years of cutting later I have two trains of thought. One, is most of this cutting is necessary for people to function in this populated world. Two, is of the utopian ideal of living in a time where commercial cutting is not necessary. Which is really hard to achieve seeing I come home every night to the most unnatural place in the world and am dying slowly from the pollution it creates. Ironic huh?
In any case to talk about this stuff here is a good idea. Most of the momentum, I find on this site is the mechanics of the cutting business and it would be nice if guys could come here after work and find some zen in there lives. You know a place to reflect on your more sensible self. A place where you can express your passion for trees and not how to make more money at it. I mean if enough knowledge was discussed here about the life of the tree ya never know when the world might become a greener more pleasant place to live before we all cut it all down for money. That would just be stupidity.
So good one for you Mihalek, I hope you get some good feedback here.

 

[moray]

ropensaddle's post in the tie-in-point thread got me thinking a little about what rec climbers can learn from arborists and (hold on to your hardhat) what arborists can learn from rec climbers...

I saw that same post, and made no secret of the fact I thought it was ugly. In early January OTG Boston had a great line, rebuking another poster for indulging in loose defamatory comments about whole groups of people (unsubstantiated of course): "Don't put down someone elses credentials EVER, it is just poor form." Not only is it poor form, it is nothing but unprovoked vandalism, like someone reaching across the table and putting out their cigarette in your bowl of soup.

For those incorrigible souls who want to vent some spleen about groups of people they don't like, or don't understand, or don't have the right certifications, or who aren't qualified to have anything worthwhile to say, or have too much time to enjoy themselves, rant as much as you like, but please do it over at the Off the Topic Forum. It's the wild west over there--no one will expect you to be rational or to make sense or even to behave like a respectful adult human being.

As to the constructive intent of this thread, I think we would be better off if we dropped these group labels, because they just invite misuse by the vandals I was just talking about. I think most people who are open to new ideas, that is, open to learning, won't need to know, or particularly care, if a new idea is coming from an arborist, or a rec climber, or someone who has too much time to enjoy. They will also know, if they have a decent regard for other people, that the next good idea could come from anyone.

The "green" and "Zen" themes of this thread I really like. Sometimes, when I can get the local pro arborist to climb with me, he comments that he can't believe, after working in the trees all day, he is now climbing for fun. And he means it!

 

[gasman]

The way I see it the pro climber is more like a young spry monkey or chimpanzee, While the rec climber tends to be more of a species like the one in my avatar.

 

[OTG BOSTON]

I'm both. Learned a great deal from the guys I met here on the rec forum, probably taught them a thing or two also.

Anyone who poops on rec climbers, has got serious issues with their own abilities. IMHO

 

[scottbaker]

I'm with jomoco! A great comment.

I often quote my friend the late John Britton who said that "tree pruning is for people...not for trees"

IMO he was correct and I know of no exceptions.

On that note...I hope that anyone climbing a wild tree is not leaving saw cuts to remove a dangerous dead branch. IMO they should be broken off (maybe with a nick form a hand saw to help) just enough so that they wont' bust and fall on someone during the activity in the tree.

I think the dead parts are one of the coolest sights when up in big old canopy.

Attached is a pic of an ancient dead branch from OG pine in Oregon.
Scott

 

[Adkpk]

This is great. Naturalist. Can someone direct me to this ropeandsaddle thread?
I couldn't find it. I have learned everything about climbing from this site and the BARC's (Boston area rec climbers).

Scottbaker Quote, "On that note...I hope that anyone climbing a wild tree is not leaving saw cuts to remove a dangerous dead branch. IMO they should be broken off (maybe with a nick form a hand saw to help) just enough so that they wont' bust and fall on someone during the activity in the tree.

I also live by and totaly support Scott in this practice. When I camp in the woods I never cut trees for wood with an ax or saw. I knock down dead trees and wedge them into a crotch to break it into firewood. If you ever saw my camp on my woodlot you wouldn't find as much as 22 shell on the ground from humans. Lots of dead branches left on the trees. And I am building the cabin to be extremely low impact on the nature of the woods after it crumbles to the ground.

 

[jomoco]

I'm with jomoco! A great comment.

I often quote my friend the late John Britton who said that "tree pruning is for people...not for trees"

IMO he was correct and I know of no exceptions.

On that note...I hope that anyone climbing a wild tree is not leaving saw cuts to remove a dangerous dead branch. IMO they should be broken off (maybe with a nick form a hand saw to help) just enough so that they wont' bust and fall on someone during the activity in the tree.

I think the dead parts are one of the coolest sights when up in big old canopy.

Attached is a pic of an ancient dead branch from OG pine in Oregon.
Scott

You know Scott, one of the most profound (to me anyway) thoughts I've ever had was the realization that trees are indeed one of gods noblest creations, they ask little and give their all unstintingly trying to reach heaven above them. Their generous lessons to us are poorly understood at best, that our fates are so closely intertwined, abused by us in our greed,
yet they keep giving, in the seemingly vain hope that one day soon we will comprehend their message of giving to survive, rather than our present course taking too much and suffering from the toxic consequences, they await, desperately eager that we join them in brotherhood and solidarity of purpose.

I like trees alot, and ask forgiveness of them each time I tresspass upon them, and their noble lessons in life.

Makes me feel like a buzzard feeding on death sometimes, it haunts me sometimes, what I do to put food on the table. Someday soon I hope to be instrumental in developing a more symbiotic relationship between trees and mankind, one in which they can be harnessed alive by man to generate clean electric power for us in exchange for their care and maintenance throughout their lives. Sort of an enchanted modern forest if you will, sustainable into the future, a true symbiosis between us.

What an idealistic old fool often thinks about as he deals death while musing on life at work.

jomoco

 

[lxt]

You know Scott, one of the most profound (to me anyway) thoughts I've ever had was the realization that trees are indeed one of gods noblest creations, they ask little and give their all unstintingly trying to reach heaven above them. Their generous lessons to us are poorly understood at best, that our fates are so closely intertwined, abused by us in our greed,
yet they keep giving, in the seemingly vain hope that one day soon we will comprehend their message of giving to survive, rather than our present course taking too much and suffering from the toxic consequences, they await, desperately eager that we join them in brotherhood and solidarity of purpose.

I like trees alot, and ask forgiveness of them each time I tresspass upon them, and their noble lessons in life.

Makes me feel like a buzzard feeding on death sometimes, it haunts me sometimes, what I do to put food on the table. Someday soon I hope to be instrumental in developing a more symbiotic relationship between trees and mankind, one in which they can be harnessed alive by man to generate clean electric power for us in exchange for their care and maintenance throughout their lives. Sort of an enchanted modern forest if you will, sustainable into the future, a true symbiosis between us.

What an idealistic old fool often thinks about as he deals death while musing on life at work.

jomoco

Good Post!! I thought I was weird for thinking like what you describe here!!

LXT...........

 

[Gate Keeper]

Yeah

Climb trees its fun either way.

 

[rmihalek]

arborists AND rec climbers

I tried to retitle this post, but couldn't. Once I thought about the "vs." in the title I began to think that it wasn't the right phrase. I think a better title would be "arborists AND rec climbers."

I think the "versus" word seems to imply animosity whereas I meant to convey the exact opposite: friendship, cohesiveness and a forum (the tree) for a mutual exchange of ideas and attitudes.

 

[Thillmaine]

yes

agreed

 

[oldirty]

Makes me feel like a buzzard....

jomoco

my friend!!!!!!!!! hahahahahah

(sorry i had to quote your buzzard usage.)


to be dead honest with you my first few years of climbing were nothing but removals..

the past few years i have been in the pruning game as well.

i no longer get mad if i have to deadwood a tree instead of taking it down and on top of that....i have been getting offended on the odd occasion if we are taking a perfectly good healthy tree. its weird and it is a karma thing.

i dont mind rec climbing at all. and i look forward to the next one. hint hint.

 

[moss]

..I hope that anyone climbing a wild tree is not leaving saw cuts to remove a dangerous dead branch. IMO they should be broken off (maybe with a nick form a hand saw to help) just enough so that they wont' bust and fall on someone during the activity in the tree.

I think the dead parts are one of the coolest sights when up in big old canopy.

Wild trees with lots of dead gnarl are definitely nice to look at. I'm a rec climber (feel like I'm at an AA meeting) and my practice is to not carry a hand saw in wild trees. I try to leave as little "evidence" as possible that I've been in the tree. I'd rather not "tame" the tree. When I'm lead climbing with a partner and find something that's totally rotted and ready to go I yell "All clear, branch coming down!" and kick it out of the tree. Otherwise the dead stuff stays put. I have a couple of woods trees that I take beginners up in, I take out any big dead stuff with a hand saw on one side of the tree to create a safe path for them. I like the idea of rigging with mechanical advantage to break off dead branches when needed. Ted from RI told me about doing that on some conservation land when they needed dead wood removed over a path but wanted to maintain a natural look to the trees. Looking forward to playing around that techinique.

I've definitely learned from Mr. OTG. What I've found is that every time two or more climbers get together the information/learning exchange is impressive. I've learned some really interesting stuff from people making their first climb. Sometimes a fresh look at things brings out great ideas.

Great thread you got started Bob!
-moss

 

[moss]

..I hope that anyone climbing a wild tree is not leaving saw cuts to remove a dangerous dead branch. IMO they should be broken off (maybe with a nick form a hand saw to help) just enough so that they wont' bust and fall on someone during the activity in the tree.

I think the dead parts are one of the coolest sights when up in big old canopy.

Wild trees with lots of dead gnarl are definitely nice to look at. I'm a rec climber (feel like I'm at an AA meeting) and my practice is to not carry a hand saw in wild trees. I try to leave as little "evidence" as possible that I've been in the tree. I'd rather not tame the tree. When I'm lead climbing with a partner and find something that's totally rotted and ready to go I'll take it out with a kick or a good bounce on top. Otherwise the dead stuff stays put. I have a couple of woods trees that I take beginners up in, I take out any big dead stuff with a hand saw on one side of the tree to create a safe path for them. I like the idea of rigging with mechanical advantage to break off dead branches when needed. Ted from RI told me about doing that on some conservation land when they needed dead wood removed over a path but wanted to maintain a natural look to the trees. Looking forward to playing around that techinique.

I've definitely learned from Mr. OTG. What I've found is that every time two or more climbers get together the information exchange is impressive. I've learned some really interesting stuff from people making their first climb. Sometimes a fresh look at things brings out great ideas.

Great thread you got started Bob!
-moss

 

[moss]

...i dont mind rec climbing at all. and i look forward to the next one. hint hint.

Time to set a date for a Boston area weekend climb, how are schedules looking over the next 2 or 3 of weekends?

I'm in the mood for big white pine, SRT entry and then DdRT or alt lanyard up top. but it's all good if you want to get into a big hardwood.

If it's only 3 or 4 climbers, that's cool or if it's 20 climbers we can figure that out too.
-moss

 

[OldArborist]

Well, I don't know. I used to move around pretty fast when I was younger and did this stuff for a living. Now it's more of a hobby, so I take my time... it's not because I'm almost 60... honest...

 

[rmihalek]

I think the knowledge that most arborists have about rigging is really unique to their craft. I agree that a rec climber should try to leave the tree as it was when they arrived. That being said, there have been times when I got up in the canopy only to discover a large limb that had already broken off and was precariously perched across a couple limbs. Knowing how to safely get that piece to the ground is valuable knowledge for sure.


Then there's the whole aspect of lowering a person down from the canopy:jawdrop:

 

[moss]

I think the knowledge that most arborists have about rigging is really unique to their craft. I agree that a rec climber should try to leave the tree as it was when they arrived. That being said, there have been times when I got up in the canopy only to discover a large limb that had already broken off and was precariously perched across a couple limbs. Knowing how to safely get that piece to the ground is valuable knowledge for sure.

Rigging is fun, any way to find an excuse to rig in rec climbing is a good one. Just to be clear, I remove plenty of deadwood from trees that are used to be for regular climbs in yards and other places with the property owner's permission. When I'm in woods on public land it's a different story, I'll knock a hazardous hanger down etc. but otherwise it's do not disturb.

Then there's the whole aspect of lowering a person down from the canopy:jawdrop:

In rec climbing rescue the primary strategy is to climb to an injured or disabled climber, attach them to the rescuer's harness with a pick-off strap (as a backup) and lower them on their own climbing system. If their system is inoperable then they can be transferred to the rescuers system. There are options where they can be lowered with an assist from the ground if qualified helpers are available. You still need to have a climber go up to set it up. This is more typical in a work climbing situation where you have folks on the ground who can quickly rig a belayed descent for an injured climber. For SRT a belay system can be pre-set on the trunk anchor so an injured climber can be lowered remotely, this is more typically a work climb kind of setup.
-moss