Barber chair

[Westboastfaller]

Smaller diameter tree might not let the full 1 inch height of the wedge in. If you use a shorter wedge, with a 1 inch height, it would have a steeper angle / pitch.

If you drive the wedge in deeper than the edge of the bark (larger diameter tree), the 'virtual height' of the wedge would effectively be larger than 1 inch.

It is only the angle that the trunk is lifted that matters.

Philbert

Philbert Im a fan of your work and your knowledge, much respect for your pashion. A bit all over the map on this one. Points are made but the dots aren't conecting for me.


I think this is what you are trying to say?

Its only the position of the wedge that matters, because that alters the distance from the hinge. Grade matters in lift, the flater the grade the easiest the lift, the longer the distance from wedging point to hinge, the easier the lift.
If you got a hard lift you want a shallow azz undercut & lots of sleek 10 k&h wedges. Both of them slow the lift (make the lift easier) greater wedge angles just make it hard, an inch is an inch and as long as the distance from the wedge and hinge is of equal distance then a greater angle will either fail or tip the tree faster with more energy applyed.

 

[Gypo Logger]

A great example of this is when you free up a wedge from the back and the tree needs a little more that can't be achieved from the back so you stick it close to the hinge on the side. It puts thing into perspective. Harder to do but a quicker lift. The way it was taught to me many years back was to think about a door. They have hinges, now think about that door horizontal on hinges. Come up to the front and middle of it, it's pretty easy to lift with two fingers. Now go to the bottom of the side closesed to the hinge and lift with two fingers. You can do it but it's not so easy.

Jamie, your cupboard door is a good analogy how a Dutchman effects the fall.
Open a cupboard door and slide a wedge between the two hinges, then slap or force the door closed. Nothing but damage. Don't try this when the GF is around. Lol

 

[Westboastfaller]

Jamie, your cupboard door is a good analogy how a Dutchman effects the fall.
Open a cupboard door and slide a wedge between the two hinges, then slap or force the door closed. Nothing but damage. Don't try this when the GF is around. Lol

Haha. John you crack me up man.

To late, I had to try it.
Now I'm dead in the morning ..no I with she was here....no I mean I wish she was my GF...haha

 

[Westboastfaller]

Haha. John you crack me up man.

To late, I had to try it.
Now I'm dead in the morning ..no I with she was here....no I mean I wish she was my GF...haha

Hey John! Phuck all that Trig and tangant angles.

Let's simplefy it how a faller may.
I believe a 10" K&H is about 5° and many 8" that are a little thicker (that you may use?)are about 8° I believe.
You will tip 110 ft tree at 10° under most circumstances. I hold two K&H 10" together reppresenting 10°
Holding them plumb, linning up the lean,
and when it's close? I say
"phuck It! better call a profession....haha..
Thin wedge, shallow undercut and line your wedges up overhead, (not in that particular order.)
Thing is the trees max at about the same in areas.
It's all about the heat the angle and the mass...you still following me John?


The heat of the meat the angle of the dangle and the mass of the ass


For the record, I loved today's lesson,
I venture into tangant angles and such but its Hard to retain with my dyslexia unfortunately. It gets my attention, I'm very interested good stuff! You know I wasn't very interested in english. Not that it would matter

 

[NSMaple1]

Philbert Im a fan of your work and your knowledge, much respect for your pashion. A bit all over the map on this one. Points are made but the dots aren't conecting for me.


I think this is what you are trying to say?

Its only the position of the wedge that matters, because that alters the distance from the hinge. Grade matters in lift, the flater the grade the easiest the lift, the longer the distance from wedging point to hinge, the easier the lift.
If you got a hard lift you want a shallow azz undercut & lots of sleek 10 k&h wedges. Both of them slow the lift (make the lift easier) greater wedge angles just make it hard, an inch is an inch and as long as the distance from the wedge and hinge is of equal distance then a greater angle will either fail or tip the tree faster with more energy applyed.

I think Phil was driving his wedge in from the back, toward the hinge - so the further you drive that 1" in past the bark, the more you lift and an inch isn't an inch anymore. Damn hard to hit that 1" with the backside of your axe though, once it gets in that little slotty space and the tree fights the wedge more - think I been there a time or two.

 

[Marshy]

I don't want to bore any of you to death with the mathematics, the take away is the concept of how the fulcrum length (distance from hinge to back cut) affects the amount of lift and subsequent crown movement generated. Yes there are a million different variable that could be covered about wedge taper and stuff but that wasn't the original question. I would be happy to discuss it (I'll leave it up to your guys) but its not really related to barber chair and don't want to digress further. I don't expect anyone to be doing computation in the field before falling a tree. Even I'm practical enough to know that's silly. As you gain experience working in the field things just become natural and you know the limitations of things and done need anything written on paper to validate your gut feeling. For the folks that don't have that experience having a understanding of things like how the fulcrum length effects the amount the tree will tip might help them double think a cut and make sure they have a two wedges on hand to stack them vice having to run back to the truck to get another wedge.

So in general;
A longer fulcrum length (distance the wedge is away from the hinge), the less lift angle is generated and less crown movement is generated, all other things being equal.

Exactly like NSMaple1 is saying, you pounded in a 1" wedge and it wasn't enough to tip the tree so what do you do? Pound that SOB until it disappears, then either get a larger wedge or stack the two extra your are hopefully carrying.

View attachment 552323

Pre-split firewood, nice.

 

[Gypo Logger]

I don't want to bore any of you to death with the mathematics, the take away is the concept of how the fulcrum length (distance from hinge to back cut) affects the amount of lift and subsequent crown movement generated. Yes there are a million different variable that could be covered about wedge taper and stuff but that wasn't the original question. I would be happy to discuss it (I'll leave it up to your guys) but its not really related to barber chair and don't want to digress further. I don't expect anyone to be doing computation in the field before falling a tree. Even I'm practical enough to know that's silly. As you gain experience working in the field things just become natural and you know the limitations of things and done need anything written on paper to validate your gut feeling. For the folks that don't have that experience having a understanding of things like how the fulcrum length effects the amount the tree will tip might help them double think a cut and make sure they have a two wedges on hand to stack them vice having to run back to the truck to get another wedge.

So in general;
A longer fulcrum length (distance the wedge is away from the hinge), the less lift angle is generated and less crown movement is generated, all other things being equal.

Exactly like NSMaple1 is saying, you pounded in a 1" wedge and it wasn't enough to tip the tree so what do you do? Pound that SOB until it disappears, then either get a larger wedge or stack the two extra your are hopefully carrying.


Pre-split firewood, nice.

Marshy, it's interesting how math and forestry go hand in hand as we are always measuring wood in some way, shape or form.
I use to know the formula, but how many four foot sheets of veneer would you get from an 8' log 24" in dia. if the sheets were cut 1/80" rotary style down to a 4" core?

 

[Marshy]

Marshy, it's interesting how math and forestry go hand in hand as we are always measuring wood in some way, shape or form.
I use to know the formula, but how many four foot sheets of veneer would you get from an 8' log 24" in dia. if the sheets were cut 1/80" rotary style down to a 4" core?

I would use volume of a cylinder to figure it out.
Volume= π x radius^2 x height
Use inches since the sheet thickness is a fraction of an inch.

V= 3.14 x 12^2 x (96)
V_total= 43,429.38 cu in

Then subtract the core volume.
V=3.14 x 2^2 x 96
V_core= 1,206.37 cu in

Available Veneer = V_total - V_core
= 42,223.01 cu in

Then divide the available Veneer volume by the volume of the sheet.

V_sheet= 48" x 96" x (1/80)"
V_sheet = 57.6 cu in

Available Veneer / V_sheet = # of sheets
42,223.01 / 57.6 = 733.03 sheet.

 

[hseII]

I would use volume of a cylinder to figure it out.
Volume= π x radius^2 x height
Use inches since the sheet thickness is a fraction of an inch.

V= 3.14 x 12^2 x (96)
V_total= 43,429.38 cu in

Then subtract the core volume.
V=3.14 x 2^2 x 96
V_core= 1,206.37 cu in

Available Veneer = V_total - V_core
= 42,223.01 cu in

Then divide the available Veneer volume by the volume of the sheet.

V_sheet= 48" x 96" x (1/80)"
V_sheet = 57.6 cu in

Available Veneer / V_sheet = # of sheets
42,223.01 / 57.6 = 733.03 sheet.

I've often thought you were an Engineer, but after this post, I went & looked, & Bamm!! You Are.

Awesome.


2 Rings & A Flattop, LLC Test Dummy

 

[Marshy]

I've often thought you were an Engineer, but after this post, I went & looked, & Bamm!! You Are.

Awesome.


2 Rings & A Flattop, LLC Test Dummy

LOL I'll take that as a compliment. It's like a treat when I'm cutting wood and trying to visualize the forces at play. Knowing fibers in tension vs compression can save a lot of time and a lot of headaches and potential injury.

 

[Philbert]

Philbert Im a fan of your work and your knowledge, much respect for your pashion. A bit all over the map on this one. Points are made but the dots aren't conecting for me.

We were getting too much into trigonometry, when we probably could have stayed with geometry.

I drew tree sections without a hinge to keep it simpler (numbered for discussion). We are talking about lift height, and also lift angle.

Top row shows 3 different diameter trees (say 6", 12", and 24") with a constant wedge (say 12" long and 1" high). The lift height is determined by how far the wedge is driven into the tree. There is a practical limit, based on the diameter of the tree, relative to the size of the wedge.

Second row shows wedging to a constant height; due to different diameters, different angles of wedges are required, and different trunk and crown angles result.


Was not disagreeing with your math, but urging caution at generalizing that 'a 1" wedge with tilt a crown X degrees'.

Philbert

 

[hseII]

LOL I'll take that as a compliment. It's like a treat when I'm cutting wood and trying to visualize the forces at play. Knowing fibers in tension vs compression can save a lot of time and a lot of headaches and potential injury.

It was meant as one, and As a Millwright, cause Engineers need Heroes too. [emoji6]


2 Rings & A Flattop, LLC Test Dummy

 

[Marshy]

It was meant as one, and As a Millwright, cause Engineers need Heroes too. [emoji6]


2 Rings & A Flattop, LLC Test Dummy

FFS, you're not "one of those" are you?

 

[Gypo Logger]

Very interesting discussion. Sometimes when wedging over a leaner against it's lean, we can run out of wedge.
Although a loss of wood fibre, the tree can be refallen.
Edit: undercuts, not uncuts. Lol

 

[Trx250r180]

View attachment 552517 Very interesting discussion. Sometimes when wedging over a leaner against it's lean, we can run out of wedge.
Although a loss of wood fibre, the tree can be refallen.
Edit: undercuts, not uncuts. Lol

Getting cedar 180 off the lean is tough without breaking the hinge ,the few i have tried anyways ,the wood is so soft ,the fibers collapse around the wedges ,

 

[bitzer]

I just use a jack when I need to lift over 2". What's even more fun to think about is the amount of force being created when the wind blows back onto your wedges after the cut has already opened up and then sits back again.

 

[Trx250r180]

I just use a jack when I need to lift over 2". What's even more fun to think about is the amount of force being created when the wind blows back onto your wedges after the cut has already opened up and then sits back again.

Does the tree ever break above the jacking point from the force ?Like splinter the back out ?

 

[Philbert]

View attachment 552517 Very interesting discussion. Sometimes when wedging over a leaner against it's lean, we can run out of wedge. . . .the tree can be refallen.

Interesting idea.

Philbert

 

[treebilly]

Getting cedar 180 off the lean is tough without breaking the hinge ,the few i have tried anyways ,the wood is so soft ,the fibers collapse around the wedges ,

That means you need to use more wedges.

 

[VW Splitter]

I'm just curious about the big bar?
It's awfully big for falling In general.


I am learning a lot from the rambling in this thread. Never really thought about cutting on the downhill side first. and all kinds of info here on leaning trees. The big bar question. Is it not always better to have a bar that will reach thru the tree instead of cutting down both sides to get the job done? I know a logger sometimes only has what he can carry into the woods. Most always my truck, and assortment of saws, is only as far away, as the tree is tall, that I am about to cut down.