Dealer says 441 M-Tronics are junk

[FATGUY]

another point I'd like to offer is that the "toughness" of electronic/computer components have come a LONG way.My forst cell phone back in the late 90's was destroyed by a few drops of water. I have a Sonim cell phone that you would have to want to damage to actually hurt it. you can imerse it in water, throw it against a wall, freeze it in a block of ice and it just keeps on going. I'm not saying you can't destroy it, but under normal to even severe (but realistic) conditions, it'll never fail.

 

[RiverRat2]

That's called "confirmation bias" where people look for information to confirm their existing beliefs and disregard information that points to the contrary.

I remember when the 346OE came out. People were saying "best saw ever", and "Husky can't top themselves after this one." Then the 346NE came out to a similar reaction. Now the 555/562 is causing a similar stir.

I'm still interested to see what the service life on these computer-controlled saws is going to be and what are going to be the long-term service costs.

Exactly!!!!!! the mom and pop shop I wrench in part time wont even stock the tronic versions cause they dont want to fool with them,,,,,, Rep sent with a mini message!!!!! Jacob check it out!!!!

another point I'd like to offer is that the "toughness" of electronic/computer components have come a LONG way.My forst cell phone back in the late 90's was destroyed by a few drops of water. I have a Sonim cell phone that you would have to want to damage to actually hurt it. you can imerse it in water, throw it against a wall, freeze it in a block of ice and it just keeps on going. I'm not saying you can't destroy it, but under normal to even severe (but realistic) conditions, it'll never fail.

Very good point,,,,,,

I wish they would order some cause I would love to play with one

 

[opinion]

I don't even stock the standard 441 anymore. Those are special orders. CM is only like 40 bucks more. Well worth it for buyers.

 

[madhatte]

Just want to add my US$0.02 here.

A few posts back there was a comment made regarding education and loggers. I'm an over-educated sort, couple degrees and a bunch of military schools, and I sure as hell stand up and listen when anybody with the Voice Of Experience is talking. Day I stop learning is the day I shrivel up and die. As a Forestry type, I'm somewhere between the production and the consumption ends of the industry, and have opportunity to speak with both. Folks who know their business can be found wherever business is done.

Regarding the perennial "New-Vs-Old" argument, I think it's a no-brainer that first-generation products will be less robust than later generations. I also think that any technology that makes the effort of work more productive is a good technology. So: for now, I will maintain my current fleet, and as I replace them over time, I will not shy away from newer designs out of ignorance of their performance.

Finally: Metals has said repeatedly that he suspects elevation is a factor in the poor performance of the M-Tronics in his region. Brand-bashing and other disruptions have led to this opinion's overshadowing. I am inclined to agree with him -- all other things being equal, elevation increase results in a decrease of available oxygen. It's reasonable to suggest that this would be a cause of poor performance in a machine as simple as a 2-stroke engine, regardless of what accouterments are bolted to it.

 

[Log Hogger]

I'm university educated, but I met plenty of morons at the university, and I've met plenty of smart uneducated people. Only an idiot would use education as a measure of intelligence.

I remember my senior year of college, one of my roommates was a mechanical engineering major, and he mail-ordered a bicycle. It came with SOME assembly required, all it needed was the handlebars, wheels, and pedals installed. He had to have me, a biology major, put it together for him.

 

[FATGUY]

Just want to add my US$0.02 here.

A few posts back there was a comment made regarding education and loggers. I'm an over-educated sort, couple degrees and a bunch of military schools, and I sure as hell stand up and listen when anybody with the Voice Of Experience is talking. Day I stop learning is the day I shrivel up and die. As a Forestry type, I'm somewhere between the production and the consumption ends of the industry, and have opportunity to speak with both. Folks who know their business can be found wherever business is done.

Regarding the perennial "New-Vs-Old" argument, I think it's a no-brainer that first-generation products will be less robust than later generations. I also think that any technology that makes the effort of work more productive is a good technology. So: for now, I will maintain my current fleet, and as I replace them over time, I will not shy away from newer designs out of ignorance of their performance.

Finally: Metals has said repeatedly that he suspects elevation is a factor in the poor performance of the M-Tronics in his region. Brand-bashing and other disruptions have led to this opinion's overshadowing. I am inclined to agree with him -- all other things being equal, elevation increase results in a decrease of available oxygen. It's reasonable to suggest that this would be a cause of poor performance in a machine as simple as a 2-stroke engine, regardless of what accouterments are bolted to it.

I thought one of the motivations in producing this system and the like were to make the saw more capable in various situations, elevation being one of them......

 

[madhatte]

more capable in various situations, elevation being one of them......

I bet they were shooting for the middle of the ol' bell-curve. It's a whole different ballgame above 6,000 ft.

 

[BigJ]

Finally: Metals has said repeatedly that he suspects elevation is a factor in the poor performance of the M-Tronics in his region. Brand-bashing and other disruptions have led to this opinion's overshadowing. I am inclined to agree with him -- all other things being equal, elevation increase results in a decrease of available oxygen. It's reasonable to suggest that this would be a cause of poor performance in a machine as simple as a 2-stroke engine, regardless of what accouterments are bolted to it.

Fully agree. People seem to have discounted this possibility straight away and focused their attention on the dealers comments. I'll be interested to hear what the local dealer here thinks once he gets a few of these in the field...our cutting starts at 4000' and only goes up from there. I'd have to hear some reviews about serious cold weather cutting, too - at least down to -10F. Every system has its limits...

 

[s219]

I'm university educated, but I met plenty of morons at the university, and I've met plenty of smart uneducated people. Only an idiot would use education as a measure of intelligence.

I remember my senior year of college, one of my roommates was a mechanical engineering major, and he mail-ordered a bicycle. It came with SOME assembly required, all it needed was the handlebars, wheels, and pedals installed. He had to have me, a biology major, put it together for him.

I worked in a machine shop prior to college. When I hit college, I was able to land a model-maker job in the engineering lab's machine shop, which was good, since I was studying engineering. Somehow I figured all the students would be like me. But while I was on the job in the shop, a group of students had a lab assignment to make some parts on a milling machine. Well, it wasn't long before metal parts were flying across the room at high speed because none of the idiots knew how to use a vice, and some were even trying to clamp multiple parts in a vice at the same time (big no-no). Me and the other staff machinist exchanged some funny looks that day. It's when I realized that mechanical aptitude and engineering aptitude (or attempt at it via education) really have no connection at all. Electrical engineers are probably the worst in that regards. Stand back when they start tinkering....

 

[spacemule]

I remember my senior year of college, one of my roommates was a mechanical engineering major, and he mail-ordered a bicycle. It came with SOME assembly required, all it needed was the handlebars, wheels, and pedals installed. He had to have me, a biology major, put it together for him.

His name wasn't Tom Sawyer was it?

 

[blsnelling]

This is just my surmising here, but max rpm under load is max rpm under load, regardless of any condition, including elevation. If there's an issue here, I'm guessing its with strato saws at elevation, not the M-Tronic carb. Seems like I remember hearing this years ago about the 441 at higher elevations. But then I wonder if the users realize that any saw will lose significant power at higher elevations. What specifically did the dealer say the problem was. Just saying they're junk means nothing.

 

[lone wolf]

This is just my surmising here, but max rpm under load is max rpm under load, regardless of any condition, including elevation. If there's an issue here, I'm guessing its with strato saws at elevation, not the M-Tronic carb. Seems like I remember hearing this years ago about the 441 at higher elevations. But then I wonder if the users realize that any saw will lose significant power at higher elevations. What specifically did the dealer say the problem was. Just saying they're junk means nothing.

441 C-E tuning problems - Arbtalk.co.uk | Discussion Forum for Arborists

 

[BigJ]

This is just my surmising here, but max rpm under load is max rpm under load, regardless of any condition, including elevation. If there's an issue here, I'm guessing its with strato saws at elevation, not the M-Tronic carb. Seems like I remember hearing this years ago about the 441 at higher elevations. But then I wonder if the users realize that any saw will lose significant power at higher elevations. What specifically did the dealer say the problem was. Just saying they're junk means nothing.

For me, the power loss going from 4000 to 6000 is noticeable, but I thought the problem stated was erratic rpm behavior, hard starting, etc.. Could be anything from a bad batch, to bad gas, to users exaggerating and inflating their perceived problem. Maybe the m-tronic self adjustments are much more evident at higher elevations and make is "seem" like something's funky? If it were a strato issue, wouldnt there be issues with 261's, 362's, etc, etc...?

Again, "any condition" as you stated above has to have limits, but I find it hard to believe that the limit would be so low as 5000' or so...nobody in Colorado would ever be able to run one.

 

[porsche965]

I sure could write on education, or lack thereof here but keeping this thread on track I'm at 14 feet elevation. Every saw, and I mean every saw has had to have it's limiters pulled and the H turned out 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 at least. Way lean at sea level. When I visit Ohio once in awhile, at 1070 feet elevation, they usually go in 1/4 or more and the L retuned.

With the M-tronic so far, It sorts itself back to wherever I'm at within only a couple of minutes and runs perfectly. All this was before any porting was done. No difference whatsoever since the porting either. I understand building a computer model for a "curve" and leaving the top and bottom a bit leaner or richer but for my variants that "little man" inside my 441C sure does a fine job of retuning each time. I still like manually tuning a chainsaw to precisely with that little orange screwdriver but this M-Tronic sure is a nice feature to have! And makes more power too.

I've pulled the plug after each use at these locations and it burns exactly the same.

 

[porsche965]

Sure wish I could help you with a higher elevation exercise though. :smile2:

 

[belgian]

another point I'd like to offer is that the "toughness" of electronic/computer components have come a LONG way.My forst cell phone back in the late 90's was destroyed by a few drops of water. I have a Sonim cell phone that you would have to want to damage to actually hurt it. you can imerse it in water, throw it against a wall, freeze it in a block of ice and it just keeps on going. I'm not saying you can't destroy it, but under normal to even severe (but realistic) conditions, it'll never fail.

That maybe your opinion, but 'never fail' is utopia in the industrial world. And warranty on electronic equipment is never longer than 2 years, at least in our area. A cell phone has an average life time of one to two years max, considering the speed of development in that area. And as far as I know, the legal obligation for a manufacaterer to provide spares for their equipment is max. 7 years. That may be long enough for a pro user, but as a firewood guy, I am not looking forward to throwing my saw in the dumpster in seven years time (I am not a pro logger), because a spare coil or carb is going to cost me the price of a new saw at best. In 7 years from now, M-Tronic will be probably looked upon as a dinosaur control device.

For ex. Siemens makes fortunes right now by no longer supplying parts for the Siemens S5 PLC sytems. I know many companies having to upgrade their machines to the newer S7 series, just to avoid major production downtime in case of failure. And they do fail, trust me.
Customised electronics puts you as a consumer in a vulnerable position. That is something to consider when you buy a high tech device.

 

[brncreeper]

That maybe your opinion, but 'never fail' is utopia in the industrial world. And warranty on electronic equipment is never longer than 2 years, at least in our area. A cell phone has an average life time of one to two years max, considering the speed of development in that area. And as far as I know, the legal obligation for a manufacaterer to provide spares for their equipment is max. 7 years. That may be long enough for a pro user, but as a firewood guy, I am not looking forward to throwing my saw in the dumpster in seven years time (I am not a pro logger), because a spare coil or carb is going to cost me the price of a new saw at best. In 7 years from now, M-Tronic will be probably looked upon as a dinosaur control device.

For ex. Siemens makes fortunes right now by no longer supplying parts for the Siemens S5 PLC sytems. I know many companies having to upgrade their machines to the newer S7 series, just to avoid major production downtime in case of failure. And they do fail, trust me.
Customised electronics puts you as a consumer in a vulnerable position. That is something to consider when you buy a high tech device.

They get you on the software too. When you move to the S7 processor you need to purchase Step 7 software.

 

[FATGUY]

you're right, "never" should not have been used. Highly unlikely would have been a better choice.

 

[openloop]

I worked in a machine shop prior to college. When I hit college, I was able to land a model-maker job in the engineering lab's machine shop, which was good, since I was studying engineering. Somehow I figured all the students would be like me. But while I was on the job in the shop, a group of students had a lab assignment to make some parts on a milling machine. Well, it wasn't long before metal parts were flying across the room at high speed because none of the idiots knew how to use a vice, and some were even trying to clamp multiple parts in a vice at the same time (big no-no). Me and the other staff machinist exchanged some funny looks that day. It's when I realized that mechanical aptitude and engineering aptitude (or attempt at it via education) really have no connection at all. Electrical engineers are probably the worst in that regards. Stand back when they start tinkering....

There is a lot of truth in those words!

 

[Metals406]

Sure wish I could help you with a higher elevation exercise though. :smile2:

Got a hot air balloon handy?