Don't Understand the Shouldn't use a Top Handle Saw on the Ground Thing

[lone wolf]

It's not safer in the tree.

With two hands on the saw (any saw) you have more control. When the second hand is farther behind, you gain additional leverage to control the saw, as well as to resist kickback. When you only have one hand on the saw, it is essentially a pivot point from an inertia standpoint and you have very little control to resist the kickback of even a small saw.

It is not safer in the tree, but it is a compromise made in recognition of the tighter working conditions that climbers have, and the need to sometimes hold on to something else while cutting.

Depending upon the situation, there may be less chance of the saw tip hitting something unexpected when cutting a branch in free air, than a limb of the same diameter lying in a pile on the ground with other stuff. In my opinion, it is never a good idea to hold onto a branch you are cutting with a chain saw, or to allow someone else to hold it while you cut.

Philbert

It is safer in a
tree than my ms 440

 

[struggle]

It is very easy to fall into the habit of operating it one handed when cutting branches on a tree that is on the ground. That opens you up for the saw kick backing and hitting your leg or worse in the head/upper body.

It is pretty hard to run a rear handle saw with one hand unless it is in the cut you can remove your hand.

That is where the danger factor is. Top handle saw brings you closer to the blade it would seem over a rear handle.

You have much better leverage against the saw on a rear handle than a top handle. Some of this plays into how phsyically strong you are in the combined wiht reaction time to the saw kicking back as well.

I cut for 8 years with an 019T for firewood and had no issues, but would agree that a nice rear handle 50cc saw is much safer limbing than a Top handle unit.

 

[Isna]

The danger with top handle saws is that it's easy to use it with 1 hand. I've seen so many people hold a branch with one hand and cutting with the other. DANGER! if the saw skids, you cut your left hand. Being in charge of safety, that is totally forbidden in my crew. Also, holding the saw with 1 hand is very dangerous if the saw kickbacks.
It is not less dangerous when tree climbing, but it sometimes is necessary, unlike when cutting on the ground.
Finally, since I'm the one doing the "tree climbing" jobs I want to keep my ms200T in perfect working condition (that's what I tell the workers who don't give a sh*t about safety).
I never understood why our crew always wants to use the 200T on the ground. The 260 is not only safer but also more comfortable.

 

[tbow388]

Never Knew

I am new enough that I had never even seen a top handle saw. I think I will just stay with a rear handle. Especially since I don't climb. I would also be super tempted to use it 1 handed.

 

[lone wolf]

It is very easy to fall into the habit of operating it one handed when cutting branches on a tree that is on the ground. That opens you up for the saw kick backing and hitting your leg or worse in the head/upper body.

It is pretty hard to run a rear handle saw with one hand unless it is in the cut you can remove your hand.

That is where the danger factor is. Top handle saw brings you closer to the blade it would seem over a rear handle.

You have much better leverage against the saw on a rear handle than a top handle. Some of this plays into how phsyically strong you are in the combined wiht reaction time to the saw kicking back as well.

I cut for 8 years with an 019T for firewood and had no issues, but would agree that a nice rear handle 50cc saw is much safer limbing than a Top handle unit.

Not above chest height it aint!And I cut wood for 36 years.

 

[RES]

I think Lonewolf has pointed out something I never realized before. Holding a well balanced top handle saw at chest height and above with your left hand on the cross bar and your right hand on the top handle is much more secure and safe than doing the same with a rear handle saw. Give a try some time!!

 

[lone wolf]

I think Lonewolf has pointed out something I never realized before. Holding a well balanced top handle saw at chest height and above with your left hand on the cross bar and your right hand on the top handle is much more secure and safe than doing the same with a rear handle saw. Give a try some time!!

Not much worse than having a running chainsaw drop down on you!

 

[Philbert]

Let me clear it up for you NEWBS.It depends on what your definition of on the ground is.If you are trimming a blowdown with it and you have to cut at face level the top handle is surely safer than using a standard handle saw.

I confess that I might be one of the 'NEWBS' here! I have only been running a chainsaw since 1973 and keep learning more and more about them. But I try to never work with a chainsaw near my face.

Not above chest height it aint!And I cut wood for 36 years.

I think Lonewolf has pointed out something I never realized before. Holding a well balanced top handle saw at chest height and above with your left hand on the cross bar and your right hand on the top handle is much more secure and safe than doing the same with a rear handle saw.

I disagree with both of you guys here. I am not a climber, I don't work in trees, and understand why lone wolf would be reluctant to use his 440 hanging from a rope - just the inertia of that thing kicking on could knock you off of a perch. But I have cleaned up a lot of blow down and storm damaged stuff. I would much rather have a conventional saw with a longer bar to reach up to these branches, than have to extend my body up that high with a trim saw.

There are several threads on A.S. where members comment on the value of a longer bar being reach, aside from being able to cut larger diameter wood. Biomechanically, you only have about 1/3 the strength when working with your hands above your shoulders than when they are at mid torso, in addition to being off balance when working with your hands overhead. Neither is good for running a saw. At some point, you should switch to a pole saw if the work is that high, or cut the branches off at a lower point and section them up when on the ground.

As far as kickback is concerned it's the same exact principals with the big saws...

It's not.

Even if you are holding your one-handed saw with two hands, six inches apart, you have half the leverage to resist kickback than when holding a conventional saw with two hands spaced 12 inches apart: think of your forward hand as being the fulcrum. You are also better balanced by having your arms spread farther apart. Makes a big difference if the saw comes back at you while spinning at 40 - 60 MPH.

Just because you have done it and not gotten hurt, does not mean that it is a good idea.

Not saying that these saws aren't light, and powerful, and capable of doing a lot of things. But the OP's challenge was to understand why their use is discouraged on the ground, while they are allowed for more specialized use up in the trees.

Philbert

 

[hardhat]

I use a husqvarna t435 and solo 633 all the time on the ground for limbing and for marking the tree for bucking. I have my measuring stick in l hand, saw in r. Always careful about where tip of bar is and watch for obstacles. Makes it sure easy and quick to mark a tree for bucking. Also great for limbing as someone said where you can hold limb with one hand and cut with other. I have done the thing where you reach over the saw with l hand to hold limb, but this is stupid and dangerous and I don't do this anymore. I walk around to the other side if I need to hold the limb to avoid this dangerous position.

These saws can kickback, but mine are not real strong. I have run them wide open and jammed tip of bar into bark of tree, just to see and kickback can be controlled with one hand (I did this with saw pointing to side to test it).

They are lightweight and convenient, and if safety precautions are followed, I think safe to use on ground. I use two hands most of the time, but the one handed option is great. But have to be careful.

Larry

 

[struggle]

Not above chest height it aint!And I cut wood for 36 years.

I am talking about being on the ground. I almost always run mine one handed while up in a tree, I see no issue with that. On the ground it is easier to get into trouble one handed.

In a tree is compeltely different and that I understand if that is what you meant.

 

[tallguys]

On the ground it is easier to get into trouble one handed.

I doubt that. Unless of course one is being totally careless. On the ground you have the relatively stable platform of your own two legs whereas in a tree you're balancing on a branch or tied into a harness.

 

[turnkey4099]

<snip>

As far as kickback is concerned it's the same exact principals with the big saws...

Bottom line is your using a tool that will gladly remove limbs-Tree or human so respect it, learn to use it safely and prepare for the worst...

HD

Same exact principle as fare as _cause of kickback_ goes. Not the same for _control_. A big saw will have two hands on it, top handle all to often only one and you cannot control a kickback that way.

Harry K

 

[The Burning Rom]

My 015L is on permanent pallet cuttin duty. I do that with both feet firmly on the ground. Add me to the group of mis-users. Heck, I remember watching a video of MCW fallin a few small trees with a 200T.

My dad fells everything with his MS200T, and has been using it almost exclusively for firewood cutting since he bought it 3-4 years ago. Before that he had been using a 011av and a Mini Mac since around 1981.

 

[pgg]

A TH saw is no more prone to kickbacks than a rear-handle, all the B.S. about "better" balance, fulcrums, leverage, etc.. is just so much waffle, it's light agile and extremely easy to control. You're holding the bloody thing with two hands and you're braced solid on the ground, if you're holding a branch in one hand and cutting with the other you hold the bloody saw out and away from your body, any dik-head cutting one handed right in front of their own face deserves to be cut. Comments like " a rear-handle saw is 50% "safer" on the ground than a top-handle" are just SUCH a crock of crap LOL

 

[logbutcher]

A TH saw is no more prone to kickbacks than a rear-handle, all the B.S. about "better" balance, fulcrums, leverage, etc.. is just so much waffle, it's light agile and extremely easy to control. You're holding the bloody thing with two hands and you're braced solid on the ground, if you're holding a branch in one hand and cutting with the other you hold the bloody saw out and away from your body, any dik-head cutting one handed right in front of their own face deserves to be cut. Comments like " a rear-handle saw is 50% "safer" on the ground than a top-handle" are just SUCH a crock of crap LOL

Hey Kiwi you just gotta be more assertive. Say what you mean boy. :hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:

BTW: how do you like your new All Blacks coach ?

 

[pgg]

Hey Kiwi you just gotta be more assertive. Say what you mean boy. :hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:

BTW: how do you like your new All Blacks coach ?

LOL All good bro

 

[greendohn]

i owned a top handle echo for 10 years or so,, cut lots and lots on the ground with it. didn't know the difference until i finally replaced it..i believe the rear handle model i replaced it with is more comfortable to operate. i'm guilty of swinging it around one handed when brushing out a tree,,of course i dont look over the top it while i'm buzzin' off brush with it..i dont care to have the saw chips blowin' into me sniffer and my peepers..i dunno, i could be the most dangerous operator on the planet,,i think i'm a highly skilled individual,,and when i grow up, i wanna be a HO over on one of them other threads..:hmm3grin2orange: and drink beer,, i dont reckon i've ever thought about it much...you guys shouldn't either,,spend your money and play with your toys any way you want to. drink beer and be happy...

 

[naturelover]

Used a top handle for years...

But never up a tree. The old 2000 Poulan. Fell stuff with it, limbed, bucked, whatever until I got the 362. Never was brave enough to try it one handed though.

It probably is easier to rotate around on you, simply because of the closeness of your hands. You would have more leverage to prevent this with a rear handled saw, but then again, any of them are dangerous if not operated cautiously and properly.

 

[JimM]

Let me clear it up for you NEWBS.It depends on what your definition of on the ground is.If you are trimming a blowdown with it and you have to cut at face level the top handle is surely safer than using a standard handle saw.But if you are just cutting small wood and one handing it well there is where you are going to get cut when it kicks back and your left arm is in range!My advice keep two hands on it as much as you can one hand it when the situation calls for it.

My definition of on the ground is, well, on the ground. I'll use whatever saw i choose. Your condescension puts me off.

 

[BlackOakTreeServ]

A top handle saw reminds me of trying to control a "poisonous" snake when used on the ground.....CentaurG2's quote...lol

I've used my ms200T top handle to buck up tree's on the ground, but prefer by a long shot to use a rear handle saw like my ms200 rear handle.....