Falling article

[murphy4trees]

I fowarded all of the comments on the tapered hinge article from both threads to Don Stauruk, one of the editors of TCI magazine... he was very impressed.... That included the "everyone should know that" comment...

Here's the link to the mag at TCI's site for those that haven't seen the article:
http://www.treecareindustry.com/content/pubs/tci.htm

Since the last thread got detrailed, I AM starting another one....
I appreciate your feedback and really Am thankful to hear the criticisms aired openly.

So far the only negative feedback I have heard online is:

If you don't know about hinging, humbolt, leaning percentages, etc...then you don't need to be felling anything. Honestly, it's like reading an article on where to put the gas and oil.

And I have heard some similar feedback through the grapevine...
Not naming names... one of the top competition climbers in the world said "DUHHH"... So I heard... I can accept that... it's not like I made some incredible discovery that no one ever thought of before...

I made that clear in the second paragraph which reads:

These principles have long been understood and taught by professional loggers and can be found in books by Douglas Dent and Gerry Beranek. Though well understood and used by the logging industry, the use of tapered hinges seems to be far less established in the tree care industry. This article is primarily written for the benefit of the urban arborist.

What I originally wrote is: "for the benefit of the UNTRAINED urban arborist".... and later took out the untrained so as to avoid offending anyone.

And that is really why I wrote it... yes this is logging 101 and anyone from a logging backround will think this is as basic as gassing a saw, yet there are a whole lot of guys out there cutting trees everyday, that don't even know the basics of a clean notch... I see their stumps and cuts on logs and limbs all the time... They are the rule rather than the exception around my area... We don't have ex-logger types cutting trees around here.
So there is a huge need for training that is going unfilled. And even when spidy brought the subject to our attention on AS, there was some heated debate about its benefits..

And as Rocky and Guy pointed out, I did bring up some of the finer points of the application in climbing.... So hopefully there is at least a little something there for everyone and it can be used as a training aid for newbies....

Here's a pic of the hinge that was left from the cut that was shown on the TCI cover pic... I didn't want it published, so as to not add the center plunge to the conversation, which could require more explanation than appropriate in this article... You can see the offset of the center plunge and the taper of the hinge were used to give aded strength to fight the side lean...

 

[rumination]

Murph,

Just read your article online. I think it was well written. I was taught some felling techniques by a logger so the tapered hinge is no stranger to me, but I still learned a few things.

My favorite bit in the article was the point that if you make all your reduction cuts on the tops of limbs for aesthetic reasons you are introducing potential decay exclusively into tension wood, which is the most important in supporting the branch. I had never thought of that.

Good work!

 

[kowens]

I give this to all new climbers

 

[NeTree]

kowens, have you actually read that?

Talk about misinformation.

 

[MasterBlaster]

I thought I saw something weird in there...

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Originally posted by netree
kowens, have you actually read that?

Talk about misinformation.

What didn't you like?

 

[Gypo Logger]

Just as most dutchmens are unintentional, so are most tappered hinges. The picture shows a cut off corner on the fat side of the hinge, which would defeat the purpose of the taper, which tells me it was unintentional.
Also, if the faller had the wherewithall to do this intentionally, he would have also had the foresight to leave in a higher backcut.
Something tells me he got carried away with the silly plunge cut that so many newbies fresh out of school resort to in order to make a simple job look difficult.
John

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Think Green

Very good article, thanks for the re-cognition. i don't think Murph is the first to go for a steep upper face to contrive openface. It would seem to me that in trying to take the most fat stump wood for $ale, ya woold get the flat floor going so close to the ground,and if ya wanted the sweep of the open face only had one place to put the angle flr sweep in common hinging. i always thought, that in the massive tree pictures, that the flat cut at meeting of faces across, was to assimulate this sweep at rear of faces, with out all the distance of slanting cut, whoiile the sniping the forward nose of the bottom face, would assimulate the not closing of the forward face until later either, thus, giving clearance at the back and the front closings, for the increased capable sweep, to use all of your hinge decisions and strategies over.

Kowens thing was pretty good, more than i've seen assembled fer free. Some wasn't quite to my imagery; notably i might not cut to good side on back cut if that was direction i was pulling tree to in some circumstances; and the wedging should go forward i think to target, leveraging through hinge (if good), rather than meeting sidelean directly in direction. Make the force of the adjustment of wedge, take the long way around, deflecting thru hinge leveraging before it addresses the sidelean; if hinge wood is good.




Daniel's observations of placement of compression and tension parts of the hinge offer understanding to the same support in root and callous evaluation. The root evaluation, especially when decayed; is easier when crown is showing. Again looking for sound, spread apart compression and tension that supports lean and loading. Callous development in wounding is expen$ive to the tree resources for it is so specialized; part of which is being ~40%stronger and more flexible to; in trade for this higher draining cost on the tree. But, it depends on where that higher strength is applied, and how it addresses the lean loading. If directly on the loading axis, the equal and opposite reactions will be invoked; and it becomes more important to have tension and compression points sound on that axis, and those 2 points to have a leveraged distance between them, to support the tree. Just as in felling, any trees brushing the tree tips can limit movement, from a high leveraged position, if not outrightly give 200 points of light support loaded from 5-40# at high leverage support positions from the single ground connection, same can be used strategically to allow buffered support to tree. Just as they do naturally in woods, the support is more dynamic supporting like Cobra, rather than Cable. Like Smart Tree Fights to Stay Up with Root Rot

Or something like that..
:alien: :alien:

 

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by TreeCo
There is no doubt pro loggers could teach us arbos a thing or two about felling.

That's a fact, Jack!!!

errr, Dan!!!

 

[murphy4trees]

Hi Gypo,
Once again we are doing the "logger and arborists" dance....
I think you read that hinge wrong... No corners were cut off...

You are so right about one thing.... I made this drop a lot more complicated than it needed to be... Not for looks though...

I set and anchored a second pull line as a back up... Never used it... made me feel better knowing it was there though, as this tree was backleaning significantly... Also set a pull line on the first lead, which was a front leaner... A logger would have never done that...

And the center plunge was probably not needed, but put there at Big Jon's suggestion.... I believe that arbormaster teaches to center plunge a back leaner to remove wood fibers in the hinge which make it harder to pull against the back lean.... There was another thread here, where that technique was argued against...

Now back to the differnce between arborists and loggers....
You probably could have brought that tree down with wedges alone... no rope.... and done it safely... I don't have the luzury of taking chances... no risk means no opportunity to learn what can and can't be done....

The other difference was the money...
This was a twin lead lead red oak... both leads right around 24" DBH, one dead, the other live.... Tree was dropped in two cuts, never left the ground... Customer got several prices.... I think I priced the tree at 1,945... my price was 70 higher than the low bid, but they gave me the work to me cause I promised not to put a loader in the back yard.. So the money was there to spend the time to make sure te tree went the right way.... Might be a waste of time in your eyes, but I sleep better this way...

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

The shape of the hinge doesn't seem too critical to me, just so there's more fibers on one side, than the other.

And having the backcut on the same plane as the notch makes it harder to screw up and cut past your hinge because you can see the bar comming through if you do.

 

[murphy4trees]

That is exactly why I didn't want it included in the article... Too much controversy...
OK... now I know what he meant by the corner was cut.... And yes it is clear in the pic where the center plunge was made... you can see that sharp line perpendicular to the hinge, where the plunge was made and also see where the tip passed the center plunge and cut even more of the holding wood on the compression side.... I was OK with that, as I knew the bar wasn't long enough to take out the entire corner...
As for the back cut not being higher, that also was intentional... Why make it higher... If you are a logger the answer probably is... force of habit... kind of like using a humboldt as Marshall Adam's piece referred to.. I only cut high back cuts when there is something that could cause the tree or limb to hang up... and even then with an open face, a high back cut is not necessary.

And then there is the idea that the back cut "should be a straight line".... I wonder about this.... the whole idea of a tapered hinge is to manipulate the amount of fibers across the length of the hinge by making the face and the back cut non-parrallel... Does the back cut need to be straight? and if so... why... I don't see why it needs to be straight and have had good success with manipulating total fiber placement across the hinge more so than worrying about keeping the back cut straight...

That is something I would like to hear a loggers perspective on...
But when you talk about the first back cut being low cause of the possability of kick back I have to consider your response with caution... That kind of thinking is more a product of habit than reason.... Just like Adams cutting a Humboldt saying "you have chosen a Humboldt because it is a natural for you"... That migt be a good reason for him... not for me though.... When there is nothing for the tree to hang up on and an open face notch.... why make the back cut high?

 

[murphy4trees]

Hi treeco.


HAPPY BIRTHDAY.... you old man ... I hope you are having fun on this thread and smilin' like me..... Gotta get out the door... we'll take this up later..... Proof is in the pudding.... I'll post more pics later...

 

[Gypo Logger]

Hi Murph, I wasn't aware that that was your stump, otherwise I wouldn't have been so hard on it. The bottom line is that there was no butt shatter nor fibre pull and I guess the tree went where it was supposed to. A large slanting uncut out of the butt log doesn't serve any mechanical purpose, as the tree is long before commited to falling before the undercut even closes if the uncut even closes at all. A shallower uncut serves to break the hingewood when the tree is 45 degrees from horizontal or so. Although a steep undercut may be benificial if the butt has a big flair, but the same thing can be accomplished by cutting straight down in a line with the trunk to remove excess flairwood before any knotching takes place.
With well placed felling cuts and slightly tickled corners, most trees can be felled profitiently as long as the saw is razor sharp and can cut faster than the tree can fall even though it has a lean in the direction of fall with no plunging.
I never plunge except with heavy leaners. A disadvantage to the plunging all tree, is that should it become nessessary to withdraw the saw fast from the cut, the saw must be drawn towards the operator out of the cut as opposed to just swinging it out of the backcut and away.
If one was to see all my stumps and butt logs, it would be hard to discern what I was doing at times, but my only objective is directional control and no butt shatter or fibre pull.
The advantage to a higher backcut is the butt of the tree won't shoot off the stump should it hang up in an adjacent tree.
Lots of times I have had backcuts on the same plane as the hinge to allow the tree to roll midair after all wood was severed to prevent splitting of the trunk from the crown down when a double top claps together when it hits the ground, such as on Cherry. A super fast saw is our best insurance against problems and getting out of a problem as it arises before further damage or second guessing is done. Our bodys and minds must be faster than the tree. All in all the base of a tree is a pretty safe place to be when you trust your saw implicitly.
When I go visit Master Blaster, I will take lots of pictures and post them here under the topic, " Excuse Me While I Kiss The Sky". I like MB, cause he's a Gypo climber.
John

 

[MasterBlaster]

******* A!

 

[geofore]

not mentioned

Not to derail the thread, but if the chips change color to black you're about to hit iron in the tree. The black ring on/in the stump that indicates iron in the tree, an important thing that needs to be mentioned. Something you see a lot, buried deep in residential trees. Murph, did you need to touch up the chain? That looks like a bit of iron from many years ago.

 

[NeTree]

maas..

If you actually read the thing you'd see it's full of misinformation.

But then, I actually do trees for a living.

 

[John Ellison]

Cant get the articles to download, so I cant comment on them. I see nothing wrong with the cuts. I agree (with somebody?) that if you are compensating for a side lean the hinge should be thicker on the upper side than it is on the lower. The fact that the inside part of the upper holding wood had that point of the taper cut off it will still act like a taper from the upper part of the hinge to the lower. In woods situations where you might brush other trees a higher backcut is SOP but I dont believe it is necessary otherwise. And yes, it looks like an iron stain.

John

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Originally posted by netree
maas..

If you actually read the thing you'd see it's full of misinformation.

But then, I actually do trees for a living.

Not sure what you mean by that last comment, I do too, only I'm an arborist, not just a tree murderer.

I read through parts of the link and found it to be pretty much same old beginner stuff, but didn't see anything I'd call misinformation.
What specifically are you concerned about in the link? I think your answer would make for good discussion.

 

[SilverBlue]

Happy Birthday Dan

Ok here's a beauty, Gypo did you ever get the stains out of your shorts after this one?