Yes, that's what I was trying to say. I had a typo, and even without the typo, it wasn't as clear as it should have been. I've made corrections. Thanks for clearing it up.
How big of a bar can it pull?
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Nice thing about Echo saws is they all have user adjustable oilers. Just takes a screwdriver.
Kodiak Kid
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.63g is a more of a industrial heavy duty chain. Same with .404 pitch. When running longer bars that are buried in the wood for hours a day. .63 shines over .50 and dosent stretch as much or as fast as .50. The same can be said about .404 pitched chain. I've parted .50g chain. Never parted a .63 .63 in both 3/8 and .404 are also best for milling especially when ripping wide swaths with two heads on a double ended bar. .50g 3/8 will stretch bad under these circumstances. I feel .404 is best for milling with big power heads. Lest say the 90cc through 125cc class.
Just my thoughts.
Kodiak Kid
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I agree on .325 suited best for 40cc to 55cc Maybe even up to 60cc in my opinion.
rtrsam
ArboristSite Operative
There are numerous variables. You could probably jigger a Super XL to bolt onto a 72” bar with enough effort. It might even pull the chain around the bar but would probably smoke the clutch.
Variables:
Chain Pitch and sprocket teeth: .404 chain is more length per driver so a 7 pin sprocket is moving more chain per revolution. An 8 pin sprocket is moving even more chain, one extra driver per revolution. This all makes the engine work harder to do one revolution.
Cutter tooth configuration: square filed chisel chain is very aggressive, and cuts faster therefor works the saw harder (although being super sharp makes the saw work easier..). A round profile chipper type tooth is less aggressive, saw does not work quite as hard (cuts a little slower).
I make the assumption that chains are sharp, filed correctly, with stops or rakers configured normally, not some sort of super deep racing combo.
Skip tooth, semi skip or full comp chain: more cutters on full comp so the engine has to work harder to pull the chain through the wood.
Wood type: some hard woods are harder than some soft woods (that’s a profound statement): if you’re mostly cutting green softwood with minimal knots and not getting all gummed up with pitch, the engine works less hard than cutting some old dried up rock hard oak.
Oiler capacity: unless you’re running some sort of really goofy setup, you should be able to get enough oil onto the bar by adjusting the oiler, but it can be a limiting factor.
Cross grain cutting (normal bucking), Ripping (“noodling”), end grain (milling): all have an effect on how hard the engine has to work to pull the chain.
Dogging in: if you’ve got aggressive dog teeth and really work them in you might over tax how hard the engine must work: that’s a key element of being a good cutter is being able to sense how hard the engine is working. You dog in to put the engine under a good load without stalling the chain. If you have to hold back from dogging in you’re probably running too large a bar or you’ve got your chain filed wrong (“too sharp,” not that that’s really a thing, but cutters filed with too much hook or rakers too deep).
All that said, I’ve spent hundreds of hours with my 362 pulling a 24” bar (25”? 84 drivers), fully buried full comp chain in dried out old oak. Now I bet I could get a race tuned ported MS 880 pulling a 24” bar that would slice through stuff faster, but ether way I’m going to spend more time rolling logs, peeling dirt off the bark, dealing with the chunks I’ve cut off and just generally goofing around with stuff than I am cutting wood so I’m happy.
Variables:
Chain Pitch and sprocket teeth: .404 chain is more length per driver so a 7 pin sprocket is moving more chain per revolution. An 8 pin sprocket is moving even more chain, one extra driver per revolution. This all makes the engine work harder to do one revolution.
Cutter tooth configuration: square filed chisel chain is very aggressive, and cuts faster therefor works the saw harder (although being super sharp makes the saw work easier..). A round profile chipper type tooth is less aggressive, saw does not work quite as hard (cuts a little slower).
I make the assumption that chains are sharp, filed correctly, with stops or rakers configured normally, not some sort of super deep racing combo.
Skip tooth, semi skip or full comp chain: more cutters on full comp so the engine has to work harder to pull the chain through the wood.
Wood type: some hard woods are harder than some soft woods (that’s a profound statement): if you’re mostly cutting green softwood with minimal knots and not getting all gummed up with pitch, the engine works less hard than cutting some old dried up rock hard oak.
Oiler capacity: unless you’re running some sort of really goofy setup, you should be able to get enough oil onto the bar by adjusting the oiler, but it can be a limiting factor.
Cross grain cutting (normal bucking), Ripping (“noodling”), end grain (milling): all have an effect on how hard the engine has to work to pull the chain.
Dogging in: if you’ve got aggressive dog teeth and really work them in you might over tax how hard the engine must work: that’s a key element of being a good cutter is being able to sense how hard the engine is working. You dog in to put the engine under a good load without stalling the chain. If you have to hold back from dogging in you’re probably running too large a bar or you’ve got your chain filed wrong (“too sharp,” not that that’s really a thing, but cutters filed with too much hook or rakers too deep).
All that said, I’ve spent hundreds of hours with my 362 pulling a 24” bar (25”? 84 drivers), fully buried full comp chain in dried out old oak. Now I bet I could get a race tuned ported MS 880 pulling a 24” bar that would slice through stuff faster, but ether way I’m going to spend more time rolling logs, peeling dirt off the bark, dealing with the chunks I’ve cut off and just generally goofing around with stuff than I am cutting wood so I’m happy.
I have 404 on both my 090 and 075 shelf queens. Gotta be careful with raker height however as the rakers determine how hard the teeth pull. Normally, I set mine at 030 but with the 404, I set them at 15-20. I machine grind all my chains, no round files or guides here.
So does the MS362 as well as most other Stihl saws. I presume the same is true for Husky, but I can't vouche for those.
LoneOak
ArboristSite Operative
You believe that the MS362 has less torque than the MS361?
I have never run a 362, just assumed it was a later model and would have better torque.
BTW, I am originally raised in Oregon, and spent most of my adult life in Oregon. Oakridge, Roseburg, and the Tri Cities area. Moved to Texas after the 2008 economic collapse.
Longer bars are just more practical for all the reasons you mentioned. I would add that they are also safer, for the fact that the tip is farther from your face. Double cutting a buck is a waste of time and energy.
As far as chain goes, too many over look Semi-Skip. It is a perfect compromise between Full-Comp, and Full-Skip.
Doesn't help of the factory oiler just doesn't put out enough. Stihl has been notoriously stingy in that department.
LoneOak
ArboristSite Operative
If you have to "Dawg in" on a buck to make chips; your chain is dull.......end of story.
The only time saw dawgs should touch bark is when you are face cutting and to a lesser extent, back cutting.
Anything is better than nothing, like the imported little electric trimming saws with no chain oilers at all. SOP is a squirt oil can before using... I've had to turn down the oilers on my Echo's. Factory settings seem to be a bit excessive.
You got that right. A properly set chain and rakers will self feed, no dawgs required. Again, my 'rule of thumb' is, if I see any pitch buildup on the heel of a cutter tooth, off comes the loop and on goes a sharp one. I keep a minimum of 3 loops for each of my saws including the one on the bar.
Dull / rocked chains just rob power, fatigue you and generally pizz you off.
I bet there are a raft of saw users out there who don't change out a loop until all it's making is sawdust..
James Sawyer
ArboristSite Operative
Guys have been running longer bars on saws with limited bar specs as long as I can remember. Show me a saw with an engineered spec for 72" and 80" bar... my dad ran those bar lengths in the 70's and 80's. I believe the northern California guys still run some of those bar's lengths. We're only talking about few inches over Stihl spec on MS361 C-Q 3/8 .050-gauge RS chain is limited to 25" that is a fact! it a work saw we're not talking a race saw. Yes, it probably going to be slightly slower who going know or care if its 20 or 30sec different in the cut. Pick the saw up so it not cutting full bar if you have to, we all do that to keep the chain speed up. I can't believe the east coast guy don't do that same as us west coast guys. The MS880*** .404 .063-gauge the longest bar spec is at 59" with RS chain and that's a fact! Come on... 4-pages arguments on a few inches. Yes, all chainsaw manufactures spec their saw bar lengths, those specs have no guideline limits on the type of Timber the end user cuts... those specs are guideline plain and simple... guidelines. I'm sure there's going to be some arguments about this... but those are the spec's from Stihlusa.com page 41 and that's the Engineer specs... doesn't matter where you live or the timber you cut! This poor guy probably doesn't know what to believe how helpful is that! The MS361 is a heck of a saw and it will pull a 28" bar and I run a 3/8 .063 gauge chain full comp.
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James Sawyer
ArboristSite Operative
I know the area, logged in the Salmon Creek area. Loved fishing up at Blair lake ran those mountains. My Dad was born in West Fir. I have MS362 carb. saw and is not the same as a MS361. Yes if you can keep the chain speed up it can cut but it doesn't have the torque my MS361 has. Guys run those 362 love them... maybe mine is a lemon or I'm use to the old school saws. Lol... I have like 12 saws so my 362 isn't my choice. Nice timber in the Oakridge area at least what hasn't burned.
So do Stihls and Huskies
Rooshooter
ArboristSite Operative
I do much the same, 46cc 13", 50cc / 14" / , 92cc 16 ~ 25" / , the exception being ms880 which I run 21 ~ 60", no use putting extra stress on the small saws.
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Obviously your time and equipment aren't as valuable as mine are. Same as over loading a pickup truck. Sure it will drag 30k lbs when it's rated for 18k lbs buts it's not going to have a happy life and wear put fast. Same as a saw. Who "picks up" on a saw to give it less load? Just put a smaller bar on it or get a bigger saw. He asked for opinions and thats what he got. The hard wood guys say 20-24" and the soft wood guys chime in at 24-28". Sounds pretty normal for a 60cc saw.
James Sawyer
ArboristSite Operative
I thought we were talking about chainsaws and bar lengths, not equipment and pick up trucks let’s keep things in perspective. As for my maintenance which I’m not sure what that as do with bar lengths. I’ve been a maintenance tech for 40 years for a top 100 company fact rank 57th. I work on multi million dollar tools that transfer data at the speed of light. I’m the guy they send when other can’t fix the problem. I’ve been all over the world except southeast Asia. I worked 28 years in photolithography on equipment that work in sub micron geometry. I think my maintenance on saws iis as good as yours. I was raised in logging family, and happen to like chainsaw. I’m the guy who makes engineered designs come to life and improve reliability I think my maintenance skills are ok. I work with leading edge technologies and control systems and hardware R&D
James Sawyer
ArboristSite Operative
It's a perfectly good analogy, over load the saw with a long bar just like overloading a pickup. More wear and tear. Just the same as that guy's dismal video (s) that was not a happy saw. Did it for the job? Sure, slowly and miserably.
If we're comparing qualifications, I did like wise for many years different sector, now i work on much more expensive and complicated systems. Our last upgrade was around $1 million in cost and we're still working out the bugs, and have redesigned several things.
