This is a fair point. Electric fork lifts use the battery as counterweight as well.
We can calculate the opposite direction too. How much fuel do you use in an excavator per day?
Its Electric!
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This is a fair point. Electric fork lifts use the battery as counterweight as well.
We can calculate the opposite direction too. How much fuel do you use in an excavator per day?
I saw the electric Cat 320 and 230 Volvo at ConExpo in March, as well as Cat’s 950 & 906 wheel loaders, and Case’s electric 580 backhoe. It’s cool, but I was oogling other stuff. Like the new Komatsu PC900 or Cat’s next generation 335. Cat’s people were quite confident in their product being the right tool for certain applications. Volvo also had a hydrogen powered 35 ton off road haul truck.
We move a Cat 313, 325, 326, Komatsu 290, small dozers and 50 or 75 ton RT cranes often more than once a day. Sometimes it’s gotta be done. For work on your scale it doesn’t make sense, but on bigger jobs like I’m on right now and have done on the past, it is what it is, and that is much better than having a crew of eight guys waiting.
Yes, they can be moved several miles down the road in an hour. Hell, sometimes I have to call a lowboy just to move an excavator to the other side of a bridge or from the northbound side to the southbound side of the highway. Four axle tractor, four axle trailer, a couple of tie downs on an undercarriage and one on the bucket and roll on. I dunno who’s billing you two grand to move a machine either, but they’re putting the screws to you, assuming you’re not super remote. Right now I pay right around $800 flat rate to move a machine.
I don’t think electric is the solution for off-road equipment in remote locations. It would probably be fine in urban environments doing site work where you could easily get a three phase drop and the machine has appropriate time to recharge, which is to say it’s not going to work if the machine has to run 24/7 or two shifts.
Also, no, the counterweight on a 45-50,000 lb machine does not weigh nine tons, it’s more like half that, and even if it did, do you really want a battery that’s known for being volatile making up something that gets beat up? There are plenty of great operators who don’t even nick the paint, but for every two of them there’s one who likes to use theirs for grading and tree clearing. Or to move their bedding box
. If you clad them in enough steel to protect your batteries then you lose capacity, yada yada. The upshot of course is that you can use all the space for your ICE and associated cooling packages, exhaust aftertreatment for batteries, which generates a lot of space for capacity even behind a counterweight.
Anyway, Cummins is working on hydrogen powered ICEs and Volvo has rolled out a fuel cell powered off road wiggle wagon. I think those are the future for remote areas or situations where equipment will have to run two shifts where they only get a short break between ten hours running, as is common in big projects, mining and quarrying.
I’m not trying to take a dump on anyone here, but there are shortfalls to every alternative to diesel. Hell, there are downfalls to diesel. But right now I’m not convinced going electric is the solution for all off road applications.
We move a Cat 313, 325, 326, Komatsu 290, small dozers and 50 or 75 ton RT cranes often more than once a day. Sometimes it’s gotta be done. For work on your scale it doesn’t make sense, but on bigger jobs like I’m on right now and have done on the past, it is what it is, and that is much better than having a crew of eight guys waiting.
Yes, they can be moved several miles down the road in an hour. Hell, sometimes I have to call a lowboy just to move an excavator to the other side of a bridge or from the northbound side to the southbound side of the highway. Four axle tractor, four axle trailer, a couple of tie downs on an undercarriage and one on the bucket and roll on. I dunno who’s billing you two grand to move a machine either, but they’re putting the screws to you, assuming you’re not super remote. Right now I pay right around $800 flat rate to move a machine.
I don’t think electric is the solution for off-road equipment in remote locations. It would probably be fine in urban environments doing site work where you could easily get a three phase drop and the machine has appropriate time to recharge, which is to say it’s not going to work if the machine has to run 24/7 or two shifts.
Also, no, the counterweight on a 45-50,000 lb machine does not weigh nine tons, it’s more like half that, and even if it did, do you really want a battery that’s known for being volatile making up something that gets beat up? There are plenty of great operators who don’t even nick the paint, but for every two of them there’s one who likes to use theirs for grading and tree clearing. Or to move their bedding box
. If you clad them in enough steel to protect your batteries then you lose capacity, yada yada. The upshot of course is that you can use all the space for your ICE and associated cooling packages, exhaust aftertreatment for batteries, which generates a lot of space for capacity even behind a counterweight.Anyway, Cummins is working on hydrogen powered ICEs and Volvo has rolled out a fuel cell powered off road wiggle wagon. I think those are the future for remote areas or situations where equipment will have to run two shifts where they only get a short break between ten hours running, as is common in big projects, mining and quarrying.
I’m not trying to take a dump on anyone here, but there are shortfalls to every alternative to diesel. Hell, there are downfalls to diesel. But right now I’m not convinced going electric is the solution for all off road applications.
MMG
ArboristSite Operative
I say let the market decide. If the market wants electric construction equipment, it will be successful, if the market don’t buy the equipment, they will fail.
DONT mandate the equipment.
A rule of thumb for fuel consumption on a diesel is 20 horsepower hours per gallon of fuel. that's producing 1hp for 20 hours, 20hp for one hour.
How much fuel are you burning in your equipment per day? Multiply that by 20hp/hr, then multiply that by 746w per hp, and that'll give you the number of watt hours an equivalent electric machine would require to do the same work.
50 gallons burned per day x 20hp/hr per gallon of diesel is 1000hp/hrs per day used.
1000hp/hrs per day used x 746w per hp gives 746,000w/h per day.
Theoretical of course, but this will be at least in the ballpark, and is based on real world data from an existing machine doing exactly the same job.
This is why I asked @northmanlogging how much fuel they used in a day in their equipment. Then we can start doing some closer to real world calculations. Get some idea of how much battery capacity they'd need, and how much charging infrastructure they'd need to support it.
I also mis-typed earlier about my own solar power usage making sense earlier in the thread, and didn't give the full story.
My solar power system only exists because I built it as a hobby, and as an emergency backup for necessities. The system is here and making power any time the sun shines, so I might as well use the power. If it was just based on saving $$$ vs. grid power, it would make zero sense, and I never would have built it. I'm $7000 into a build that cut my power bill by $20 last month.
My solar power system only exists because I built it as a hobby, and as an emergency backup for necessities. The system is here and making power any time the sun shines, so I might as well use the power. If it was just based on saving $$$ vs. grid power, it would make zero sense, and I never would have built it. I'm $7000 into a build that cut my power bill by $20 last month.
the reason i didnt respond, and will likely not give any numbers.
your math is based entirely on assumptions, fuel/battery efficiancy is a variable you should know this before regurgitating BS math on everyone
but i can say that a 200 class excavator will burn BETWEEN 40 to 90 gallons per day, depending on a list of variables as long as my leg.
point being you've already convinced yourself that electric machines are never going to work, so why argue with anyone that responds with misinformation and utter falsehoods
On the flip side, why argue with a guy that dosen't understand thermal dynamics and physics?
Three points:
1.) Man you're a serious piece of work. I feel sorry for your wife and family, if you have one.
2.) I never said electric machines would never work, I said we aren't there yet. I do firmly believe we will get there at some point, and manufacturers building these machines and putting them in the field is vital to getting there.
3.) Look up straw man arguments, and psychological projection. You appear to be an expert in the application of both.
I keep confusing you with SlowP. Similar thought process, I guess.
That sounds reasonable, I have one 50hp engine 44hp pto that according to the Nebraska test uses 2.8 gallons an hour. I don't know where the hp of an excavator is measured, likely the crankshaft? Northman at one time posted a video of him using a skidder.
Using your numbers and 180 watt hours per kg I got from weighing a recent Makita battery it will take 82kg or172 pounds to replace that gallon of diesel.
The modern not yet released around here Husqvarna 540 mk3 is listed as in the high 300's for grams needed to make one kwh. 387 or close to that. I don't have anything that efficient. I think I got 82 pounds to replace a gallon of mix for something I have.
well using the above math, my log truck gets 5mpg, that calculates too 240hp
something in there is incorrect
kinda my point
Well how many pounds of today's 1965 cells or 2170 cells or pouch cells of some dimensions do you get to replace a gallon of diesel?
Maybe it does contain an error. 172 pounds of today's cells in an enclosure to go 5 miles. There are electric garbage trucks the research likely has been done.
It is my understanding that for a big rig that is battery the rule is 82,000 pounds instead of the 80,000 normally. Quite possiby tri axle get a similar rule shift. I would think you would want as light as possible log truck. If I had a battery pick up there would be deeper depressions where the wheels go that is not paved.
MMG
ArboristSite Operative
Electric equipment isn’t a new idea. Here is a shovel from the 1960s that had 15,000 peak HP. It runs on electricity but is tethered to the grid.
To have this kind of power, it pretty much has to be electric. But, up stream to this machine is a grid that is disposing of more potential power than this machine needs. So, when this machine is under “max” load, the upstream grid just adds the power to the feed. Look this up in your favorite search engine.
To have this kind of power, it pretty much has to be electric. But, up stream to this machine is a grid that is disposing of more potential power than this machine needs. So, when this machine is under “max” load, the upstream grid just adds the power to the feed. Look this up in your favorite search engine.
??? maybe im dyslexic but wut?
anyhow, the batteries the Edison folks are using fit between the frame rails, and if memory serves with a 9L diesel, the gen head and 4 sets of batteries the truck is only 1000# heavier then its straight diesel brethern.
a pickup would likely only need 1 or 2 of the batteries Edison has to get similar mileage.
lithium ion or litium iron batteries are far lighter then many common batteries on the market, and store a great deal more power.
but hey there are several electric pickups currently on the market, Rivian, Ford even Chevy folks use em, so something must be werkin out, otherwise they would be rotting on dealers lot, to say nothing of the ev commutter cars, waiting on a ferry today and it was like a parade of silent evs went by, while we were waiting in our diesel volvo that sounds like a constipated farm tractor...
sorry skipped the weight thing...
each state/province? has its own axle wieght rules, but i do understand you get a 2k bonus for electric or hybrid trucks, regardless of axle config, how that affects bridge laws and legal axle weights i dont know
that said tri drives get an extra 18k or 20k? i think?(its a uniquely canadian thing so?) down here we run drop axles usually with single tire so you gain 8k-16k depending on tire size and axle spacing...
each state/province? has its own axle wieght rules, but i do understand you get a 2k bonus for electric or hybrid trucks, regardless of axle config, how that affects bridge laws and legal axle weights i dont know
that said tri drives get an extra 18k or 20k? i think?(its a uniquely canadian thing so?) down here we run drop axles usually with single tire so you gain 8k-16k depending on tire size and axle spacing...
MarylandUSA
ArboristSite Lurker
Just remember one thing when you start calculating the efficency of a battery powered anything. That battery has to be charged at some point. When you factor in the fuel used to mine the battery equipment, the fuel used to transport it across the big pond, the cost to actually manufactor that battery and then transport it to the vehicle in question. the cost to dispose of dead batteries, and the time you spend waiting on that battery to recharge, and the cost of the recharge. Have you saved anything, have you really reduced CO2 emissions.
We don't seem to know. There are also very similar transportation and development expenses for diesel, coal, etc. Electric motors are known to be far more efficient than combustion engines. Unfortunately, batteries are not fuel, they are only stored energy. Fuel is consumed, batteries are not.
If we ever get to the point where electricity is generated without using fuel to do so, the electric vehicles and large equipment will become practical, energy efficient, and they won't produce CO2. Until that happens, the diesel will be a better plan.
