Looking for wood furnace

[stihly dan]

OK guy's, let calmer minds interject. Which would be me, now that the handle of whiskey is getten low. Mr. psg Caddy. Your units seem well made and efficient, without using one, I wood still feel safe saying that it's 1 of the best on the market. IMHO from NH. There was 3 things that made me go KUUMA over PSG. #1 American made. (Canada would be second in my opinion) Save local buy local. #2 small company over large co. I have yet to talk to, or e-mail, anyone from kuuma that is not a family owner. #3 The computerized control. This is the future, now. I will bet you a plate of cookies, that psg will be using a computer on there's with in the next 5 yr's.

Also, it is not fair comparing a large companies Ability for tests, and over all info, sales brochure, and marketing in general. Against a co. that has ten employee's working 6 or 7 day's a week. There is less time and money for all the Test's and info advertising. They have no dealer network, or many lines of different name product.\

I can't even say how well the Kuuma works for I have nothing to compare it to, except the Epa wood stove that I was using. The heat and ease of operation is a god send. The computerized damper is the cat's a$$. Blows the stove out of the water. Almost like they don't use the same fuel.

 

[Fyrebug]

OK guy's, let calmer minds interject. Which would be me, now that the handle of whiskey is getten low. Mr. psg Caddy. Your units seem well made and efficient, without using one, I wood still feel safe saying that it's 1 of the best on the market. IMHO from NH. There was 3 things that made me go KUUMA over PSG. #1 American made. (Canada would be second in my opinion) Save local buy local. #2 small company over large co. I have yet to talk to, or e-mail, anyone from kuuma that is not a family owner. #3 The computerized control. This is the future, now. I will bet you a plate of cookies, that psg will be using a computer on there's with in the next 5 yr's.

Also, it is not far comparing a large companies Ability for tests, and over all info, sales brochure, and marketing in general. Against a co. that has ten employee's working 6 or 7 day's a week. There is less time and money for all the Test's and info advertising. They have no dealer network, or many lines of different name product.\

I can't even say how well the Kuuma works for I have nothing to compare it to, except the Epa wood stove that I was using. The heat and ease of operation is a god send. The computerized damper is the cat's a$$. Blows the stove out of the water. Almost like they don't use the same fuel.

Agree with everything you say except the Max Caddy has had a very sophisticated computer for the past 4 years... How else do you control the Kick in Points (KIP) for multi-speed blower, AC connection, bio fuels etc... You can download the manual and see for yourself here...http://www.psg-distribution.com/product.aspx?CategoId=16&Id=563&Page=description

I also agree with small companies. That's how both of our countries were made. Small companies hopefully become bigger companies.

Notice I was happy to leave this thread entirely alone until I was drawn into it by some unfortunate comments or shall I say misleading comments about our products. "Let sleeping dogs lie" would have bee a good policy here on the part of Kuuma.

 

[iowa]

It is amazing to put a few pieces of wood and turn your home into a sauna! Lol. I was just telling the wife, welcome to your new sauna that you've always wanted, now get in your bikini! I keep going down to the basement and watch it. But it gets rather boring. There's nothing to do! Other than wait to put more wood in. Which is few and far between right now.

Tonight we have really heavy fog. The air is extremely dense. It's drafting just fine.

 

[stihly dan]

Agree with everything you say except the Max Caddy has had a very sophisticated computer for the past 4 years... How else do you control the Kick in Points (KIP) for multi-speed blower, AC connection, bio fuels etc... You can download the manual and see for yourself here...Wood furnaces : 3 - MAX CADDY - Wood or combination furnace (oil and/or electric)

I also agree with small companies. That's how both of our countries were made. Small companies hopefully become bigger companies.

Notice I was happy to leave this thread entirely alone until I was drawn into it by some unfortunate comments or shall I say misleading comments about our products. "Let sleeping dogs lie" would have bee a good policy here on the part of Kuuma.

Sorry, I did not realize yours had a computer. Could have sworn you mentioned not having one in some post or another. My bad, And I do swear alot. The one good thing that happens with these threads, no matter how bad things may get. Several thousand people get an education on many points of wood burning.

PS If you want to send me a free caddy, I will do a side by side comparason on how they stack up. I am an hvac tech so you know it will be accurate and honest. And I love free stuff AY.

 

[iowa]

Here is the reload for the night. I got home at 430pm and started a new fire and put 3 sticks of wood in it. House has been a constant 76. Just done catching up on Goldrush and reloaded it. Pulled the ashes forward and put coals on the grate. Stacked a few pieces and I'm ready for bed. 1030pm.

 

[lampmfg]

Agree with everything you say except the Max Caddy has had a very sophisticated computer for the past 4 years... How else do you control the Kick in Points (KIP) for multi-speed blower, AC connection, bio fuels etc... You can download the manual and see for yourself here...Wood furnaces : 3 - MAX CADDY - Wood or combination furnace (oil and/or electric)

I also agree with small companies. That's how both of our countries were made. Small companies hopefully become bigger companies.

Notice I was happy to leave this thread entirely alone until I was drawn into it by some unfortunate comments or shall I say misleading comments about our products. "Let sleeping dogs lie" would have bee a good policy here on the part of Kuuma.

We have done some research on their computer and ours servers a different purpose in furnace operation. I'm glad that Fryebug chimed in. Nothing wrong with getting the facts out there. I know what I like to look for when I make an actual purchase and that's an apples to apples comparison. I know that we have done our part to make this happen.

I don't think I said anything misleading. Just stated the facts about none of our competitors actually posting their test results likes we have.

 

[laynes69]

I think Kuuma had no choice but to post results for emission testing. Being neither EPA or CSA, there had to be a way to prove it's clean burning technology. Companies like Yukon couldn't do this or possibly tried and failed, which resulted in many arguments. There's hundreds of EPA certified stoves, and here recently a few EPA certified furnaces along with CSA furnaces hit the market. None of them post their test results, they just advertise their results or state which certifications have been met. Customers like you and I know if that badge contains the EPA/CSA certifications it's a far cry above others that don't have this. To split hairs over a few grams of smoke is a moot point.

Both Kuuma and PSG have the technology to put out a clean burning furnace. I've seen the same benefits and results upgrading our old furnace as did the users of a Kuuma. It's all in what's wanted from the consumer. I enjoy the view of the fire through the glass door, the heat exchanger that takes a minute to clean, and the furnaces ability to keep the house within range of the thermostat (no wide temp swings). One of the reasons why I didn't buy a Kuuma was it's lack of it's EPA certification (no offense!), same reason why I wouldn't consider a Yukon. I wanted to be ready in case of a ban on exempt furnaces, which may not be far off. Choosing what I did lowered wood consumption considerably and in return our chimney stays much cleaner and we burn no fossil fuel. Our home is a large 2 story Victorian with 10' ceiling both down and upstairs. We have 42 windows and a 1200 sq ft basement under the house. It's well insulated, but a little drafty. We burn less wood than someone I know heating a trailer with a wondercoal stove or someone with a 1200 sqft home with a englander furnace. Longer burns, just better all around. Even those with stoves we use less, which they're in the same area so climate isn't different. Yeah we get a little creosote, buts there's no chance for a chimney fire. We brush twice a season and there's very little there, compared to the bucket fulls we use to see with the old furnace.

In the end, it's whatever appeals to the buyer. Just like vehicles, there's many options to choose from. I don't think someone could go wrong from either unit, there's to right or wrong choice. Even though the Kuuma's test results are impressive, not having a certification will stop some customers from considering their units, or stop sales into certain states. When they acquire that, things will be much better for them. I enjoy these threads when they're in good taste, and not all out bashing. It allows others to see both sides.

 

[reaperman]

Computer controlled wood burning units scare me. Why? Because since the micro processor was invented they have been sticking them into just about every product from A to Z. Are the products better as a result? Some are, some not. But the longevity of most products on the market these days seem to be diminished as a result. One example, our washing machine was purchased about 6 years ago when we built our home. The washer replaced a old maytag that was at least 15 years old. I then gave the maytag to a guy I work with that still uses it today. The computer on my new, name brand wash machine puked out this summer. By the time I paid a service tech to diagnose the issue and replace the computer I almost had the same $$ as a new machine. Take a look at today's vehicles. Thats about all you can do is look, fixing one is out of the question. I will admit the computers on cars do make them more efficient but come at a cost. The monitor sensors appear to be the kink in the armor. They trigger the check engine light to go on, only to find out the car is fine, but the sensor monitoring its functions puked out.

The bottom line to me is, the mechanical part of products seem to outlast the electronic systems that operate them. A wood stove or furnace, as a whole, are sturdy, well built pieces of steel that will last decades. Adding a computer will improve its efficiency, but nobody will ever convince me that the electronics that run the system will outlast the steel that it is bolted onto. So the issue becomes a future investment in another computer sometime down the road. If troubles in the electronics erupt, who will come to diagnosis them? Computer control wood burning devices will not be able to be diagnosed by the local geek squad. Will the homeowner be able to diagnosis electrical issues and know what parts to order? And can these computer controlled furnaces be used without electronics? On the bright side, a manual damper will never fail. Unfortunately this is where we are at with today's products and as a result, its a throw away society.

Don't get me wrong, I all for innovation and improving products and getting the most from your wood pile. Even if it means adding a computer, but I just want the computer to last as long as the system its designed to operate. I also like the fact that a wood stove can be operated without electricity, especially during power outages. Good luck to Kuuma, I'm a Minnesota boy myself and wish your company the best.

 

[stihly dan]

I am of the opposite thinking. Should be more electronics. I would love to see an auto lite unit, that can shut itself down, and fire back up on its own. Maybe a creosote chamber that is slippery so the creosote slides down into a holder, then gets used to start the fire again.
These units can run with no electricity. You can manually operate if you have to. And very few people repair there own oil, gas, boilers and furnaces. So why dumb down the wood ones, for self repair? How cool would it be if a wood furnace could be as clean as gas, and the chimney be made of pvc.

 

[lampmfg]

I think Kuuma had no choice but to post results for emission testing. Being neither EPA or CSA, there had to be a way to prove it's clean burning technology. Companies like Yukon couldn't do this or possibly tried and failed, which resulted in many arguments. There's hundreds of EPA certified stoves, and here recently a few EPA certified furnaces along with CSA furnaces hit the market. None of them post their test results, they just advertise their results or state which certifications have been met. Customers like you and I know if that badge contains the EPA/CSA certifications it's a far cry above others that don't have this. To split hairs over a few grams of smoke is a moot point.

Both Kuuma and PSG have the technology to put out a clean burning furnace. I've seen the same benefits and results upgrading our old furnace as did the users of a Kuuma. It's all in what's wanted from the consumer. I enjoy the view of the fire through the glass door, the heat exchanger that takes a minute to clean, and the furnaces ability to keep the house within range of the thermostat (no wide temp swings). One of the reasons why I didn't buy a Kuuma was it's lack of it's EPA certification (no offense!), same reason why I wouldn't consider a Yukon. I wanted to be ready in case of a ban on exempt furnaces, which may not be far off. Choosing what I did lowered wood consumption considerably and in return our chimney stays much cleaner and we burn no fossil fuel. Our home is a large 2 story Victorian with 10' ceiling both down and upstairs. We have 42 windows and a 1200 sq ft basement under the house. It's well insulated, but a little drafty. We burn less wood than someone I know heating a trailer with a wondercoal stove or someone with a 1200 sqft home with a englander furnace. Longer burns, just better all around. Even those with stoves we use less, which they're in the same area so climate isn't different. Yeah we get a little creosote, buts there's no chance for a chimney fire. We brush twice a season and there's very little there, compared to the bucket fulls we use to see with the old furnace.

In the end, it's whatever appeals to the buyer. Just like vehicles, there's many options to choose from. I don't think someone could go wrong from either unit, there's to right or wrong choice. Even though the Kuuma's test results are impressive, not having a certification will stop some customers from considering their units, or stop sales into certain states. When they acquire that, things will be much better for them. I enjoy these threads when they're in good taste, and not all out bashing. It allows others to see both sides.

You are correct. My dad had been working on this furnace for the past 25 years and after thousands of test burns he was convinced that it was the best on the market. Of course we were able to sell some by word of mouth and some local advertising but saying you are the best only gets one so far.

We had to make a decision on what would prove it's the best. We went with the independent testing and Intertek, which is one of only a handful of labs in the world that performs this process. The kind of money that we spent going though the testing was tough in our situation because it was more then my dad was paying himself in a year. My dad decided that he would rather have results from the tests that were done then a certification from the EPA for a wood stove when it's really a furnace.

I truly feel that the best part of dealing with us is not only how easy wood burning becomes but rather the customer service one receives on top of the amazing product. How many places can you call at almost anytime and speak with the actual product designer and someone that knows everything about using it? Not many... We take questions on nights and weekends just trying to make sure everyone is happy with their purchase. My dad will even give any of our furnace owners his home number to call at anytime.

 

[laynes69]

I'll give you a story. When we purchased our furnace, it was through a big box store and not a dealer. We had no one around here that would install, or even look at it for that matter. I didn't mind, for I've done electrical, ductwork, etc. so it wasn't a big deal for me. A couple years ago, we had a problem with our furnace. I contacted usstove, which at this time they were discontinued, and even then customer service was poor. I contacted a couple dealers in different states, and they told me to contact the manufacturer which was SBI. I figured nothing would happen, but it was worth a try. Little did I realize after explaining my situation, SBI was going to send someone here. What I didn't realize was it was Fyrebug from Canada, which had some service calls in the states so he would stop by and check things out. The company went out of their way to make sure things were taken care of. It's one of the reasons why PSG wants dealers to install and sell their furnaces. Every single dealer I spoke with had nothing but high things to say for the company. Excellent warranties, products well built and strong customer service to boot. It's not just for PSG, but all other lines of stoves they build they stand behind. It's not something you see everyday. So yes you want a company that stands behind their products and because of that I would buy another product from SBI any day.

 

[Fyrebug]

PS If you want to send me a free caddy, I will do a side by side comparason on how they stack up. I am an hvac tech so you know it will be accurate and honest. And I love free stuff AY.

I would but I wont make bonus this year if I do...

 

[Fyrebug]

Computer controlled wood burning units scare me. Why? Because since the micro processor was invented they have been sticking them into just about every product from A to Z. Are the products better as a result? Some are, some not. But the longevity of most products on the market these days seem to be diminished as a result.

I think there is a difference. Product longevity is called 'planned obsolescence' which means they only want the unit to last so long before you need to buy a new one. It has nothing to do with electronics.

Electronics in furnaces allows you to push the boundaries on combustion and efficiencies that would otherwise not be possible. The same happened with cars. Look at the difference between cars in the 80's and now... Better gas mileage and power even large pick-ups.

 

[Fyrebug]

You are correct. My dad had been working on this furnace for the past 25 years and after thousands of test burns he was convinced that it was the best on the market. Of course we were able to sell some by word of mouth and some local advertising but saying you are the best only gets one so far.

Thanks Matt for the compliment. It's true... at the end of the day service matters a lot to customers. I think forums such as AS shows the MFG's that cares by spending the time to discuss these issues. Even Keith despite all his bluster really cared about his customers and products.

I tip my hat to Grampa Kuuma who with limited resources was able to produce such a great unit. And yes, despite the going back and forth the lab results are impressive.

Finally Garret, I wouldn't be so worried about competitors including PSG. If you make a great product backed by excellent service there is no way but up. However, the real source or concerns is the upcoming EPA legislation. We attended a meeting in MN last month and EPA threw the entire industry for a loop. They had indicated that for wood stoves the new benchmark was going to be 4.5 gr/hr with efficiencies plateau's as well. For forced air and boilers they were more or less going to follow CSA B415.

However, they threw a curve ball and said they now want 2.5 gr/hr for stoves and have change the requirements for furnaces so that none would pass today including yours and mine.

What this means is if its adopted as is, it will literally kill the little and not so little guys either. Price of appliances will double and triple by 2015 in order for everyone to re-design, re-tool and certify. It's not over yet. The industry is trying to talk sense to EPA. I urge you to join HPBA and let your voice heard otherwise everyone will end up suffering.

 

[lampmfg]

The one thing that I hope a thread like this does is encourage people to understand how far along wood burning has come and just how much new technology can improve the wood burning process. I would love for everyone to buy a Kuuma but in all actuality it would be very hard for us to build more then we did this past year the way we are currently configured. 30 people on a waiting list in November is going to eventually cause my dad to have a heart attack trying to make sure they are all done perfectly and on time.

 

[stihly dan]

I would but I wont make bonus this year if I do...

BONUS, whats a bonus. You canadians get bonuses? I thought that went out the window along with the 1 income family. Next thing your going to tell us, is that you get raises too.

 

[Fyrebug]

BONUS, whats a bonus. You canadians get bonuses? I thought that went out the window along with the 1 income family. Next thing your going to tell us, is that you get raises too.

Let me rephrase

If you guys bought more stuff then I might get a raise and a bonus.

Then I would promptly turn around and give it to our govt since we love our taxes.

 

[brenndatomu]

Computer controlled wood burning units scare me. Why? Because since the micro processor was invented they have been sticking them into just about every product from A to Z. Are the products better as a result? Some are, some not. But the longevity of most products on the market these days seem to be diminished as a result. One example, our washing machine was purchased about 6 years ago when we built our home. The washer replaced a old maytag that was at least 15 years old. I then gave the maytag to a guy I work with that still uses it today. The computer on my new, name brand wash machine puked out this summer. By the time I paid a service tech to diagnose the issue and replace the computer I almost had the same $$ as a new machine. Take a look at today's vehicles. Thats about all you can do is look, fixing one is out of the question. I will admit the computers on cars do make them more efficient but come at a cost. The monitor sensors appear to be the kink in the armor. They trigger the check engine light to go on, only to find out the car is fine, but the sensor monitoring its functions puked out.

The bottom line to me is, the mechanical part of products seem to outlast the electronic systems that operate them. A wood stove or furnace, as a whole, are sturdy, well built pieces of steel that will last decades. Adding a computer will improve its efficiency, but nobody will ever convince me that the electronics that run the system will outlast the steel that it is bolted onto. So the issue becomes a future investment in another computer sometime down the road. If troubles in the electronics erupt, who will come to diagnosis them? Computer control wood burning devices will not be able to be diagnosed by the local geek squad. Will the homeowner be able to diagnosis electrical issues and know what parts to order? And can these computer controlled furnaces be used without electronics? On the bright side, a manual damper will never fail. Unfortunately this is where we are at with today's products and as a result, its a throw away society.

Don't get me wrong, I all for innovation and improving products and getting the most from your wood pile. Even if it means adding a computer, but I just want the computer to last as long as the system its designed to operate. I also like the fact that a wood stove can be operated without electricity, especially during power outages. Good luck to Kuuma, I'm a Minnesota boy myself and wish your company the best.

Electronic controls on wood fired furnaces are almost inevitable. As we know, some have them now. Stoves, maybe, maybe not, who knows, I'm sure we'll see after the next set of EPA regs. It's like fyrebug said, it's called planned or engineered obsolescence. The quality and reliability of the electronics in a 747 jet is more than just a little better than what is in the latest gotta-have-it toy you just bought your kid for Christmas. We'll all love it after we get used to it (BTW, how ya likin that new phone by now spidey?) due to the increased burn times, cleaner chimneys and low/"no" smoke. I have to believe that if you purchase a top of the line furnace, like Kuuma or PSG Caddy, the electronics are designed to last as long as the firebox, which seems to be a looong time! Buy a chi-com made one (cause I'm sure they'll jump in the clean burn market too) from your local "farm-mart" probably gonna give ya trouble.

I'm not sure how the current Caddy and Vaporfire models are set up, but hopefully they can be used, at least enough to keep your house from freezing, during a power outage.

While on the subject, and we seem to have at least a couple mfgs ears, I personally would have a "techno-geek" wish list of options on a electronic clean burn wood furnace.
1. wireless monitor for the firebox, plenum, and flue temps with visible and audible alarms for "oh crap" or low temp situations.
2. the ability to monitor remotely from a computer or cell phone, maybe a remote alert to the cell for the previously mentioned situations.
3. more to come as I think of them :msp_rolleyes:

 

[iowa]

I loaded it half way up last night before bed. Got up, it was 73 in the house and a bunch of nice coals left. Today will be a good test. Was 22 out this morning with a wind chill of 10deg. High of 35. I loaded it up. Will update at 430pm when I get home! :msp_w00t:

 

[Fyrebug]

I'm not sure how the current Caddy and Vaporfire models are set up, but hopefully they can be used, at least enough to keep your house from freezing, during a power outage.

While on the subject, and we seem to have at least a couple mfgs ears, I personally would have a "techno-geek" wish list of options on a electronic clean burn wood furnace.
1. wireless monitor for the firebox, plenum, and flue temps with visible and audible alarms for "oh crap" or low temp situations.
2. the ability to monitor remotely from a computer or cell phone, maybe a remote alert to the cell for the previously mentioned situations.
3. more to come as I think of them :msp_rolleyes:

Amish folks use our Caddy's without blowers of course. So they are in a state of continuous power outage... I've been in their houses and they are quite ingenious and build their house around air flows. They design a large inverted funnel plenum that feeds into large floor grates. They undo the bottom or rear the furnace as their cold air return and voila!

For us common folks in case of an extended power outage we will have to manually open the primary air damper, and have a 'outlet' on the plenum we can open and close to have the warm air exhaust freely.

Wireless monitor and apps is something we are considering. We're 2 to 3 years away from it. Right now our engineers are busy trying to invent the next technology that will keep the EPA folks happy.