Measuring a cord in practical terms

[Andy99]

I'm beginning to think this is Standard Operating Procedure. Mind you, that doesn't make it right at all.

What was the response from the supplier? As long as this has gone on, it sure sounds to me like he's stone-walling you. Time is on HIS side when he's got your money. At this point he could claim he delivered 3 cords; you just had your buddy across town pick up 3/4 cord since then.

You might want to consider getting the authorities involved at this point. Whether that's the police or someone from NYS bureau of weights and measurements, I really don't know.

We have been emailing back and forth so I have all that info. I also have pictures. I got my Del. on Wed night. By time i got it all stacked it was Friday.
I called him and emailed him Friday explaining I was short. He emailed me back with the general I Dont want an unhappy customer if you "feel" like you were shorted I will make it right. I will email you on Monday with a date I can drop off more wood. I never heard back from him and I emailed him on Wed asking whats going on. He emailed me back on Thursday saying he had a death in the family and the funeral is on Sat. He will email me on Monday with a del date for the rest of my wood. Its been 1 week since I informed him he shorted me. AUGH I dont feel like I was shorted wood I was shorted wood. If I dont hear from him on Monday I want to send him an email that mentions that I want to make this correct without getting the NY state Bureau of Weights and Measures involved. My wife thinks this is a bad Idea since she doesn't want the guy coming back to the house and possible doing some damage or worse taking our wood. Its so frustrating. I just want what I paid for. I got a wood burning stove because my wife and I our struggling to make ends meet and I cant afford oil to heat the house. I dont have extra money and this really sucks. Im collecting as much free wood as I can but it wont be ready to burn this winter but im already collecting wood for 2009-2010.

 

[cjcocn]

Not to further complicate this thread but here goes. I am interested in buying rounds that have been cut and stacked by a homeowner. I told him that in order to be fair for both of us I would set up a skid with a sides to measure out a cord. He has cut all of the pieces to within a couple of inches of 16". Would splitting the rounds generate a better yield for him prior to stacking them in a cord measure or does it not really make that much of a difference? I would think a better measure of the cord would be acheived by stacking split pieces. I have offered the use of my splitter ( his gas) so that he can split the wood. It is mostly Locust and Cherry. We have the sheisters around here too when it comes to selling a "cord" that does not measure up. Make sure they have a firewood license!

If the wood is split it will take less wood to fill up your skid.

If you pick up the wood in rounds you will end up with more wood.

To illustrate, think of this example (offered up by another AS member). Pick a round that just fits into a five gallon pail. Now split that round and try to fit it back into that same five gallon pail. All of the wood will not fit.

 

[KsWoodsMan]

OK Im I being unreasonable? I ordered 3 cords of wood. I paid for three cords cash. After I stacked it I only had 2 and 1/4 cords and i stacked it loose to allow for more air flow. I called up the supplier and I am still in the middle of trying to get it straightened out. I paid 175 a cord I expect to get at least closer to three cords then to two....

I dont think you are being unreasonable at all. You stacked it and found a big desrepancy. You were shorted 1/4 of your delivery and questioned it immediately. Not 1% or 2% but 25% of your order was missing. General practice among honest businesmen is to stay within the confines of the law.

I have seen 'ricks' that were 3ft 1/2 by 6 1/2 ft of 10-16" 1/2 cord of firewood. Some people just dont know otherwise. Other people just take advantage of those that dont know.

Andy99 perhaps your dealer and this guy are related ? http://wichita.craigslist.org/for/732740118.html .
Here, a rick is accepted as 4'x8'x16". By my estimate he is giving away a full 1/3 cord in his price for less than the cost of 2 ricks OR he is not delivering what he is advertising. Or leaving an 18" airspace between his stacks so it includes more airspace than wood.


YMMV, An honest dollar earned goes a lot further than a dishonest dollar.

 

[KsWoodsMan]

Now I found my state of confusion

Opening post:

I just had what was supposed to be 2 cords of wood delivered - not "face cords", but 2 full cords. I fully understand that the technical definition of a cord is 4' x 4' x 8', regardless of the cut length. This would all work out easy if logs were cut to 24", but obviously they're not, and typical length seems to vary anywhere from 12" to 20".

What I'm being told is that in practice, what you get when you order a cord is two 4' x 8' rows, regardless of the cut length. I nicely, but firmly disagreed, indicating that a stacked cord needs to measure 4' x 4' x 8' regardless of log length. Fortunately we settled on a more agreeable cost, but it was a somewhat contentious conversation.

Who is right?

Later in the thread but very early on:

I just ordered 3 cords of wood and had it dumped on Wed Night. I stacked some wed night and some Thursday night after work and finished the stacking today. After measuring it I have less then 299 cubic feet.:jawdrop: Now I have to deal with getting this straightened out. Its very frustrating since I paid the guy cash. I'm in NY. I'M hoping the wood supplier is going to do the right thing.

The amounts seemed to be growing and the story changed along the way.

Dont pay full attention to me the ringing in my head hasnt gone away yet.

 

[DPDISXR4Ti]

The amounts seemed to be growing and the story changed along the way.

Indeed you are confused. These are two entirely separate, entirely unrelated events.

 

[KsWoodsMan]

Indeed you are confused.

Indeed ! Time to go cut more wood so I can't hear anymore ringing.

 

[toddstreeservic]

If the wood is split it will take less wood to fill up your skid.

If you pick up the wood in rounds you will end up with more wood.

To illustrate, think of this example (offered up by another AS member). Pick a round that just fits into a five gallon pail. Now split that round and try to fit it back into that same five gallon pail. All of the wood will not fit.

I disagree. Which can you fit more of in a glass jar marbles or golf balls?

 

[KsWoodsMan]

I disagree. Which can you fit more of in a glass jar marbles or golf balls?

Those are all self stacking and completetly uniform in size and shape. Cut them up and then see how well it work out.

Which weighs more a 4ft Dia log 8 feet long or a cord of wood from that same log?

Good info
http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/calculators/calc.pl?calculator=log_weight
http://www.csgnetwork.com/logweight.html

Acording to links posted in the sticky at the top of the forum there could be more then 1,000 pounds difference in most species.

 

[Wood Doctor]

I disagree. Which can you fit more of in a glass jar marbles or golf balls?

Answer: marbles because the voids are smaller. The secret is to back the marbles with the golf balls. Then you maximize everything by minimizing the voids.

When I haul logs to the splitter, I load the large logs into the truck first that produce 6 or more firewood logs when split and then pack the 2-bangers around them in the voids that the big ones leave behind.

It takes a little time, but when I'm through, the sardines are ready to be hauled. It's amazing what a 1/2-ton pickup can carry away from a worksite when you pack it tight.

 

[Hugenpoet]

So is a cord 160 cu/ft in the UK???

If not, then just

If it were the price would most probably be $600. per cord.

 

[KsWoodsMan]

OK lets compare apples to apples here. Not golfballs and marbles to cordwood.

Cut a solid chunk of wood to the size and shape of the inside of the glass jar. This will fill the jar.
Turn that same solid chunk into sawdust as fine or course as you like.
Begin filling the jar with the dust till it is full. Pack it tight and fill some more. Keep packing it in cause you will have more sawdust to put in there then you have space left in the jar.

Cut and split a cord of wood grows as it gets split more and more times.

Just for analogies sake dig a hole, save all the dirt from the hole on a tarp, cardboard or plywood. Now refill the hole and ask your self why you are having to pack it get it back in.

Here is another one , Cut down big tree and load Pickup with only the brush from this tree. Pile it as high as you like. Let it hang off the back and sides till you cant see with the side mirrors. Put some more on till you cant throw more on.
Go weigh that load.
Load the same PU with logs to the same height and width.
Chances are you wont make it to the scalehouse. It weighs more than sticks
There is more wood in a cubic foot or cubic truck bed of logs then there is in the same volume of sticks and branches. Period

 

[Hugenpoet]

OK lets compare apples to apples here. Not golfballs and marbles to cordwood.

Cut a solid chunk of wood to the size and shape of the inside of the glass jar. This will fill the jar.
Turn that same solid chunk into sawdust as fine or course as you like.
Begin filling the jar with the dust till it is full. Pack it tight and fill some more. Keep packing it in cause you will have more sawdust to put in there then you have space left in the jar.

Cut and split a cord of wood grows as it gets split more and more times.

Just for analogies sake dig a hole, save all the dirt from the hole on a tarp, cardboard or plywood. Now refill the hole and ask your self why you are having to pack it get it back in.

Here is another one , Cut down big tree and load Pickup with only the brush from this tree. Pile it as high as you like. Let it hang off the back and sides till you cant see with the side mirrors. Put some more on till you cant throw more on.
Go weigh that load.
Load the same PU with logs to the same height and width.
Chances are you wont make it to the scalehouse. It weighs more than sticks
There is more wood in a cubic foot or cubic truck bed of logs then there is in the same volume of sticks and branches. Period

Well of course there is. There is always more air present when there is room for more air.

 

[KsWoodsMan]

Well of course there is. There is always more air present when there is room for more air.

Which weighs more a log that is 4' dia end to end and 8 feet long or a stack of wood that is cut and split that is 4' X 4' X 8' ?

I even provided the links above to answer this one.
Using Ash as an example:
A cord of green Ash firewood weighs 4300 pounds.
A green Ash log 4 ft dia. X 8ft long weighs in at 5831 pounds.

That is 1531 pounds difference between a log and a similarly sized stack of the same wood. 1531 pounds in favor of the log not the stack. If the log was cut, split and stacked it would be more than a cord of firewood. The more times it gets split the bigger the stack will grow. You can split it till it is the size of kindling and it will still take up more space than the original log.

By definition a cord is a stack of wood so we would have to put in some extra pieces of wood complete the stack. Lets use (4) 9" dia logs 8 feet long. We now have 6400 pounds of wood in our cord of wood. There are still some gaps that we could fill but .... won't. We have met the legal definition of a cord as a stack of tightly packed wood, all pieces laying parallel and the pieces are touching, that measures 128 cubic feet. 128 cubic feet of wood, bark and airspace.

Hmmmm 6400 pounds of wood in an unsplit cord of 5 logs compared to 4300 pounds of split ready to use firewood. The difference there is close to 1/2 cord of split and ready to use firewood. It's a trade off. If your time means nothing split it as small as you can get by with. If it does have some value stop splitting at a reasonable size.

The last step in the equation is the customer , if they are getting shortchanged they won't be happy. If the do come back it is either to bring the law or out of desperation. Cut and split it to a size they are happy with and fulfill your end of the bargain by selling them enough wood to be what you say it is and a few extra pieces to fill out the stack, just so you can sleep well at night.

 

[Wood Doctor]

KsWoodsMan said, "There is more wood in a cubic foot or cubic truck bed of logs then there is in the same volume of sticks and branches. Period."
---------------------
True. But you have to fill the voids created by the big billets with the smaller logs that only need to be split once or not at all. Please see my post above. You pick up at least 15% additional firewood by filling those voids.

Also, please allow me to criticize your avatar at the risk of being censored forever by this forum and by you. You are very bright and I would like to continue reading what you have to say here. Your avatar of a "Mad Magazine" idiot icon, Alfred E. Newman, is not in keeping with the intelligence that you demonstrate in your posts. Please change it. Just a tip, and go ahead and nail me if you so desire.

 

[KsWoodsMan]

A question was raised along the way when

Not to further complicate this thread but here goes. I am interested in buying rounds that have been cut and stacked by a homeowner. I told him that in order to be fair for both of us I would set up a skid with a sides to measure out a cord. He has cut all of the pieces to within a couple of inches of 16". Would splitting the rounds generate a better yield for him prior to stacking them in a cord measure or does it not really make that much of a difference? I would think a better measure of the cord would be acheived by stacking split pieces. I have offered the use of my splitter ( his gas) so that he can split the wood. It is mostly Locust and Cherry. We have the sheisters around here too when it comes to selling a "cord" that does not measure up. Make sure they have a firewood license!

What I got from his post was the question

Would splitting the rounds generate a better yield for him prior to stacking them in a cord measure or does it not really make that much of a difference?

From experience, the stack will get bigger the more it is split.

Did I read that wrong somewhere ? He asked about stacked rounds versus stacked splits. Which would make me think that the homeowner was going to be stacking it, filling the voids with smaller ( round ) wood. At the least, not going out of his way to maximise the amount of airspace in the stack.

You are saying that by filling the voids between large rounds with smaller chunks you do get more on your truck. I agree, completely. No arguements.

But do you get as much wood in your truck loaded to the same height and width if it is split and well stacked as you do when loading your well stacked rounds?

Just thinking about this with the bucket analogy and from experience I say ( resoundingly ) No.
You dont get as much wood on a truck or in a skid if it is split as you do when loading well stacked rounds of assorted sizes. Anyone can overload a 1/2 ton with assorted dia. rounds a lot easier than they can if the wood is split and stacked.

Above, I explained that a 5800 pound log takes up less space than 5800 pounds of processed firewood. Both are a cord of wood as loosely defined by being 4X4X8 feet. But cut and processed there is more than a cord of firewood in the log. While there is only a cord of firewood in the 4300 pound stack of processed firewood.

His wood cutter would infact make more money per skid if it is split but at the expense of the time and effort running the buyers splitter. Depending on the value of their time it is a good deal for either one of them. One guy makes more money by splitting the wood. The other doesn't have to spend his time splitting it.

I think we are both argueing the same side but from different viewpoints. Your view seems to be that you can get more by filling the voids between rounds with smaller rounds. Which is correct, BTW. While I am saying that by splitting the wood he is creating more gaps giving him less wood. Which, Is also correct.

I know who Alfred is. I'm sure any man over the age of 30 does too. I'm dragging 40 now, instead of pushing it. I'm not here to brag about the size of my saw, shinyness of my truck, how much it will carry or the # of cords I process a year. And don't really care if I get taken seriously or not. I add my opinion to a discussion since that is all it is, just my opinion. Some are based on fact and others on experience. I make-do just fine with what I have. I have enough wood at the end of a days work to suit me. Firewood isn't my main staple. I cut wood because I like the sound of the saw and the mind cleansing experience. All I am worried about, as I crack open the throttle, is getting a clean cut through the wood and making sure it isnt going to fall on anything important. Once it is cut, loaded, home, axe split and stacked I use it to heat with. It gives me satisfaction knowing that with our effort (my boys and myself) that we are going to be warm this winter. We have no worries about the grid going down. If we sell some even, better as it helps put some cash in their pocket around Christmas. It is all good.

Critisism for the avitar: noted.
Offence taken for critisism: none. Alfred's face is a bit easier on the eyes.

 

[Slvrmple72]

KsWoodsman, I like the way you think. Your posts have been very helpful. I have offered this proposition to the homeowner who has the rounds of wood I am interested in: The use of my splitter and myself to process the rounds into split firewood for a better yield (more cords) that I can buy from him at a rate per cord reflecting my time, effort, and equipment use. I get firewood to use and or sell and he gets more money for the more cords that will be split from the rounds of Cherry and Locust. This fella really impressed me with his methodical approach. The Cherry tree on his property became uprooted and he used a pressure washer to clean the exposed roots prior to cutting them up with his saw. He had cut up all but a few feet of trunk that he used to prop up the roots.
I enjoy getting lost in the work as well. The wife exercises, I split firewood or go climb a tree.

 

[KsWoodsMan]

I hope I havent came off as angry in any of my posts. After re-reading some of the conversation It did seem ... extremely directed. Which wasn't my intention. All of it was typed while smiling, remembering that this is a place to share experiences and a place to ask and answer questions to the best of our abilities.

If I gave offense to anyone, I also give my apologies.

Slvrmple72 : I'll have to remember the pressure washer on the roots thing. That sounds a lot faster then letting Mother Nature wash them clean. I was asked if I could remove a couple of stumps from blowdowns in the back of a nice home. I can see filling a 55 gal. drum in the back of the PU, using a barrel dolly to tip it with a garden hose attatched. This setup feeding a pressure washer to wash the dirt from the roots. I didnt want to sacrice any bar or chains I own to a couple of cottonwood stumps.

From the sounds of things, it benefits you both to have it split and ready to sell once it is on the skid. Like I said before , the end customer is the final step in the equation. How small do they want it split. Some will want it all uniformly sized others will want the size varied so they have some kindeling and some bigger stuff for all night burns. It has to fit inside the firebox or they won't buy it.

 

[KsWoodsMan]

When I haul logs to the splitter, I load the large logs into the truck first that produce 6 or more firewood logs when split and then pack the 2-bangers around them in the voids that the big ones leave behind.

It takes a little time, but when I'm through, the sardines are ready to be hauled. It's amazing what a 1/2-ton pickup can carry away from a worksite when you pack it tight.

I was thinking about that. If the deck on my pu was a little lower It wouldnt be a problem. The first 1,000 pounds is only enough to smooth out the ride. It doesnt really lower the truck bed any though. So I will fill out from the front of the bed back to about cab heighth with hand thrown stuff then stack it tight and strap it if needed. from there I put on 200# rounds between the wheel wells and get 6 or 8 of these on with some smaller stuff in the holes and to keep it from shifting. By this time I still have room for some big stuff and the bed is getting low enough that I can get them on the truck myself. By rolling them ontop of another one that I have been using as a step. 2 more rows go on without difficulty. The top and holes get filled out to even up the load. I have rolled across the scales at the CO-OP (local grain elevator) weighing 10,800 pounds with an average load, just on the truck. Tare weight is 4760 pounds empty, carrying a few tools and saws. Once it is processed into firewood I have nearly a cord and a third stacked and drying. Red Oak and Hedge gets heavier quicker than Hackberry so I go a little easier on the stacking. No point in breaking anything or getting hurt for some firewood.

We use the same idea of minimizing airspace in the load but I just cant see putting on the biggest stuff first. Gravity is working against me getting that much on there that high.

If I ever get close to Omaha I'll bring some cold ones.

 

[DPDISXR4Ti]

Very much back to the subject title, here's an excellent link for explaining what a cord is....

http://www.woodheat.org/firewood/cord.htm

Even a knuckle-dragging neanderthal (or a monkey) should be able to understand this.

 

[panhead9]

A cord of wood 128 cubic Ft. stacked tight. Done deal