Melting Snow

[Medman]

Hello,
Its been a long time since I posted on here.
I have been watching the snow melt where I placed my tubing from my OWB to my house. Every year it has gotten worse.
Would it be worth the time and $$$ to dig up and insulate with 2" foam?

View attachment 226389

 

[STANG302]

Have you ever check your temp drop from your boiler to the house? The less amount of temp drop the more effiecient your system will be! I'd insullate as much as you can afford.

 

[memory]

Was this pipe wrapped in black drain pipe with insulation in it? How deep is it buried? What color is the water pipe?

To be honest, I would not be worried about that right now. If it keeps getting worse, you may want to do something about it. We currently have the same problem except it is alot worse. The pipe going to the house is losing a lot of heat. Across the black top driveway, it is probably ten foot wide where the snow has melted. The pipe is insulated but we bought the cheaper stuff not knowing any better and now we are paying for it. Something happened to the outer black tile pipe because every time it rains, water comes inside the basement through that pipe and it is hot. It doesn't even have to rain alot.

 

[Medman]

Was this pipe wrapped in black drain pipe with insulation in it? How deep is it buried? What color is the water pipe?

To be honest, I would not be worried about that right now. If it keeps getting worse, you may want to do something about it. We currently have the same problem except it is alot worse. The pipe going to the house is losing a lot of heat. Across the black top driveway, it is probably ten foot wide where the snow has melted. The pipe is insulated but we bought the cheaper stuff not knowing any better and now we are paying for it. Something happened to the outer black tile pipe because every time it rains, water comes inside the basement through that pipe and it is hot. It doesn't even have to rain alot.

Thank you both for your replys. I am around 3ft deep and I too have the cheaper stuff. 6" drain tile stuff with 1" red and blue pex with about 3-4 wraps of insulation. This year it is 100% worse, however no water in the basement.....thank god.
I have approx 30-40degree temp drop from OWB to furnace "Not exact". My OWB is about 150ft from the house.
Thanks

 

[ray benson]

Probably be able to grow a row of potatoes all winter long.

 

[THE PLUMMER]

WOW!!! unfortunately I see this way too often. people get caught up in the sales pitch of what appears to be a very simple product. The sad thing is the people selling it and making it are down right crooked selling a product that does not meet its claims. This can add up to a 30% loss of energy and bigger effect on total efficiency. Measuring delta T on your pipes without other known data can be very misleading. If you know the size of your pipe, the head loss, GPM or velocity of the water then you might be able to make somewhat accurate and usable figures. I've read many times that someone has Pump X and it flows upto 20 GPM but at what headloss? A 20 gpm pump can and does pump only 4 gpm in an application of high head. ( not elevation change but piping losses) An acceptable velocity standard figure when the pump & pipe are sized correctly is 3-4 feet per second for any water boiler. This is a much more important figure to know when calculating delta T from headers. If you have more than 5 degrees DT in 50' of pipe when the velocity is 3.3fps then there is a problem. I have seen a 0012 pump with 10' head that flows 24 gpm and a 0010 pump at 4 gpm at 10' head. Obviously the 12 is gonna show a far less temp drop but only because the water velocity is triple the speed and has less time to cool down in the same 1" pipe. High water velocity is not good in a boiler system, it can cause all kinds of problems, breaks, bangs, premature failure from errosion of pipes and heat exchangers. 1" pex can supply 54,000 btu/h with a delta T of 20 degrees from supply to return at the boiler. So you could be sending 50kbtu to the ground alone with a DT of 30-40 degrees in just the supply run. So on a 200 kbtu output unit , it lost 25%. So on a 50% efficient OWB half the wood could be heating the ground.

 

[Medman]

WOW!!! unfortunately I see this way too often. people get caught up in the sales pitch of what appears to be a very simple product. The sad thing is the people selling it and making it are down right crooked selling a product that does not meet its claims. This can add up to a 30% loss of energy and bigger effect on total efficiency. Measuring delta T on your pipes without other known data can be very misleading. If you know the size of your pipe, the head loss, GPM or velocity of the water then you might be able to make somewhat accurate and usable figures. I've read many times that someone has Pump X and it flows upto 20 GPM but at what headloss? A 20 gpm pump can and does pump only 4 gpm in an application of high head. ( not elevation change but piping losses) An acceptable velocity standard figure when the pump & pipe are sized correctly is 3-4 feet per second for any water boiler. This is a much more important figure to know when calculating delta T from headers. If you have more than 5 degrees DT in 50' of pipe when the velocity is 3.3fps then there is a problem. I have seen a 0012 pump with 10' head that flows 24 gpm and a 0010 pump at 4 gpm at 10' head. Obviously the 12 is gonna show a far less temp drop but only because the water velocity is triple the speed and has less time to cool down in the same 1" pipe. High water velocity is not good in a boiler system, it can cause all kinds of problems, breaks, bangs, premature failure from errosion of pipes and heat exchangers. 1" pex can supply 54,000 btu/h with a delta T of 20 degrees from supply to return at the boiler. So you could be sending 50kbtu to the ground alone with a DT of 30-40 degrees in just the supply run. So on a 200 kbtu output unit , it lost 25%. So on a 50% efficient OWB half the wood could be heating the ground.

wow. well put I never thought of it that way. Thank you

 

[mtfallsmikey]

Is the piping the pre-insulated stuff from CB, or Uponor? It should not do that, unless you have a high head/restriction like Plummer said, and it is buiried in the ground at 2-3' deep.

 

[greendohn]

So is it a pump problem? Or is it an insulation problem??

WOW!!! unfortunately I see this way too often. people get caught up in the sales pitch of what appears to be a very simple product. The sad thing is the people selling it and making it are down right crooked selling a product that does not meet its claims. This can add up to a 30% loss of energy and bigger effect on total efficiency. Measuring delta T on your pipes without other known data can be very misleading. If you know the size of your pipe, the head loss, GPM or velocity of the water then you might be able to make somewhat accurate and usable figures. I've read many times that someone has Pump X and it flows upto 20 GPM but at what headloss? A 20 gpm pump can and does pump only 4 gpm in an application of high head. ( not elevation change but piping losses) An acceptable velocity standard figure when the pump & pipe are sized correctly is 3-4 feet per second for any water boiler. This is a much more important figure to know when calculating delta T from headers. If you have more than 5 degrees DT in 50' of pipe when the velocity is 3.3fps then there is a problem. I have seen a 0012 pump with 10' head that flows 24 gpm and a 0010 pump at 4 gpm at 10' head. Obviously the 12 is gonna show a far less temp drop but only because the water velocity is triple the speed and has less time to cool down in the same 1" pipe. High water velocity is not good in a boiler system, it can cause all kinds of problems, breaks, bangs, premature failure from errosion of pipes and heat exchangers. 1" pex can supply 54,000 btu/h with a delta T of 20 degrees from supply to return at the boiler. So you could be sending 50kbtu to the ground alone with a DT of 30-40 degrees in just the supply run. So on a 200 kbtu output unit , it lost 25%. So on a 50% efficient OWB half the wood could be heating the ground.

MEDMAN
Sounds like you should look into pump velocity?!?! I used the insulated PVC pipe to run my pex(from the stealership), buried only 24" deep and about 90 feet from the house. I have NEVER had any indications of heating the ground. No snow melt. No sign of heat loss. Good luck.

 

[mtfallsmikey]

WOW!!! unfortunately I see this way too often. people get caught up in the sales pitch of what appears to be a very simple product. The sad thing is the people selling it and making it are down right crooked selling a product that does not meet its claims. This can add up to a 30% loss of energy and bigger effect on total efficiency. Measuring delta T on your pipes without other known data can be very misleading. If you know the size of your pipe, the head loss, GPM or velocity of the water then you might be able to make somewhat accurate and usable figures. I've read many times that someone has Pump X and it flows upto 20 GPM but at what headloss? A 20 gpm pump can and does pump only 4 gpm in an application of high head. ( not elevation change but piping losses) An acceptable velocity standard figure when the pump & pipe are sized correctly is 3-4 feet per second for any water boiler. This is a much more important figure to know when calculating delta T from headers. If you have more than 5 degrees DT in 50' of pipe when the velocity is 3.3fps then there is a problem. I have seen a 0012 pump with 10' head that flows 24 gpm and a 0010 pump at 4 gpm at 10' head. Obviously the 12 is gonna show a far less temp drop but only because the water velocity is triple the speed and has less time to cool down in the same 1" pipe. High water velocity is not good in a boiler system, it can cause all kinds of problems, breaks, bangs, premature failure from errosion of pipes and heat exchangers. 1" pex can supply 54,000 btu/h with a delta T of 20 degrees from supply to return at the boiler. So you could be sending 50kbtu to the ground alone with a DT of 30-40 degrees in just the supply run. So on a 200 kbtu output unit , it lost 25%. So on a 50% efficient OWB half the wood could be heating the ground.

I've been dispensing similar advice for years, it all comes down to hacks who sell OWB's/systems who don't know what their doing...when one asks you how many s.f. you are going to heat, run like hell.

 

[tawilson]

Medman,
When you buried your pipe did you use sand around your pipe to protect it from rocks and such?

 

[THE PLUMMER]

quote" is it a pump problem or insulation problem?"


Its a pipe insulation problem not a pump problem.

 

[Medman]

Medman,
When you buried your pipe did you use sand around your pipe to protect it from rocks and such?

yes not alot though

 

[tawilson]

I'm just wondering is something poked a hole in your outer pipe letting the water in. I used the pipe in a black tile and could only go down a couple of feet because of bedrock and I haven't had any snow melt issues. I even took my infrared thermometer out and there wasn't any temperature difference where I ran the pipe. It doesn't matter what you use, if it let's ground water in you lost your insulation.

 

[J1m]

So, the answer to your question - which you probably already knew before posting this - is YES, it's worth digging up your lines and fixing the problem.

Not to add insult to injury, but me personally? I wouldn't be able to sleep at night until this was fixed knowing what we paid for our OWB set up.

**Edited to add** Just for reference, and I understand that there are variances between aquastats, but when my OWB reads 180* then runs 110' to where it enters my basement, the aquastat inside actually reads 182* or 183*. So, even with a few degrees given for error, I'm losing approximately zero. As I said, 30* would keep me up at night.

 

[Arbonaut]

Hello,
Its been a long time since I posted on here.
I have been watching the snow melt where I placed my tubing from my OWB to my house. Every year it has gotten worse.
Would it be worth the time and $$$ to dig up and insulate with 2" foam?

View attachment 226389

My line is 44" deep and it still melted snow.

What I did was put a 2" 250 psi Extruded Polystyrene sheet 30" wide on top of 2" of compacted sand then I poured a 60' long concrete sidewalk 5" thick from the house to the unit. this with the 9" backfill on both sides of the sidewalk sava me mucho arbo. (lots of wood.) The topsoil on both sides of that sidewalk can give you some ultra-early vegetable (radish, lettuce) or flower beds or just some year round strips of green lawn.

 

[jrider]

Thank you both for your replys. I am around 3ft deep and I too have the cheaper stuff. 6" drain tile stuff with 1" red and blue pex with about 3-4 wraps of insulation. This year it is 100% worse, however no water in the basement.....thank god.
I have approx 30-40degree temp drop from OWB to furnace "Not exact". My OWB is about 150ft from the house.
Thanks

30-40 degree drop from OWB to house is insane! I am losing about 1-2 degrees. Granted my run is only about 40 feet but even if it were 150 feet, my loss would be somewhere between 4-8 degrees. You need to get that taken care of asap, that is unless you like burning a helluva lot more wood than you should have to.

 

[beerman6]

I built a insulated waterproof box from my OWB to the house,ABOVE ground.This is my 1st year with it this way and the frost stays on it until the sun comes out. I was sick of seeing the snow melt.

My OWB is only 25' from the house so the box can be carried to the barn come spring time and then I'll hoist it up into and strap it to the rafters for storage.

so far I am very happy with it.(now I need to figure out how to seal the holes in the siding )

 

[Medman]

thank you all for telling me what I new. I just needed to hear it from other people to make me dig it up.

thank you all,
Tim

 

[justchecknjr]

path way

at least you have a clear path to the owb!. sounds like you should dig it up and call someone in the area that sprays 2lb closed cell (not open or 1/2lb) spray foam. 2 1/2 -3 in should do it. that way it will be in direct contact with the pipe.