new climbing knots?

[Tree Machine]

It seems like it should work just as well as any other DdRT system for footlocking the tail. Is that what you were trying to do?

Yep, ascend the rope. I have to compare it to the 1:1 ropework I use. Between the having to take two strides up and only gaining 1 stride of altitude, and the 'slop' in the system, AND the (very small) minor amount of creep, or roll in the friction hitch, all added together caused me to weep in considering how much more work and parts and motion you guys employ while thinking it's some sort of solution.

I often body thrust for short distances to get around limbs instead of banging into them while footlocking.

The ascender version of this would be to invert just before the ascender will hit the limb, cast your legs up over, like when you were a kid hangin on the monkey bars, and 'body bounce' even centimeters at a time if called for. In a 1:1 system, with zero-friction ascenders that advance and positively lock down and never, ever creep backwards, you have the confidence and especially, the technical ability. There is no 'slop' in the system, there is no 'tending' or 'tuning' or slack or slop or play. Advance the ascender 20 cm and you gain 20 cm altitude, not 10. Doubled rope or single rope, it plays out almost identically.

Using your legs on the tree or branches equals body thrusting when you're ascending DdRT right?

No comparing apples to oranges. Climbing the tree is a different world than ascending and descending a rope. Climbing around the tree really amounts to keeping a little tension on you all the. You're not really on rope, you're on tree. It's more about you and Mr Flipline. The lifeline is there as support and confidence maker, awaiting you go back into ascent/descent mode.

I get it, moss, that you were specifically referring to that intermingled world where rope work and tree climbing cross over and dance as one.

In descent of the rope (rappel (abseil) and belay, the technical aspect really comes into play as you entire existence focuses around a piece of 3/8 or 5/16 diameter cord that wears over time.

For me it's really the same as you, except I connect directly to the rope througth a 50 kN steel biner and a simple piece of aluminum to keep theat rope in exactly the place you would want it. That, and I'm up and down 1:1

Other than those couple of differences, we're doing the exact same job.

 

[OTG BOSTON]

Thanks

I tried footlocking up this system yesterday. It's not footlock friendly, in any way. I honestly thought body thrusting was a thing of the past. I'll give it a body thrust attempt today, just to have that direct experience.

Prototype stuff, for the most part, so I won't be able to share it for fear of someone trying some variation. The hardware I use has to offer the versatility of going DdRT, like you guys, DbRT (static-stationary doubled line)which is me 80% of the time and SRT, me the other 20%. To demystify further, ascenders are always used on the trip up.


Boston, why don't you reopen one of the old SRT threads and we can work off that foundation, rather than building an entirely new one. Very little has changed with regards to non-hardware based SRT. If you have a piece of hardware that can go on doubled static, doubled moving or single line, reopen that thread, too; that was just a few months ago. I could share design mods I'm offering to Black Diamand and Kong, but I honestly don't think anyone here gives a hoot.

2:1 DdRT, no matter how much slop in the system, no matter how difficult it makes it to go up, still reigns king. I've seen a moderate shift toward ascender use in the last few years, but the friction hitch family has been offered to Arbordom, personally, from the hand of God. It just doesn't matter if there are faster, easier methods. I've beaten this drum for years; no one cares.

I know it seems like you are single handedly carrying this torch.........

I have reviewed all of the SRT threads, there are some great pics from you on them. I also noticed that there is a lot of confusion and patient explaining from you.

It seems like there are infinate ways of setting this system up, and I am thinking it would be cool to see the different ways AS members go about this. It would also help eliminate some of the confusion.

I noticed you are pretty consistant about keeping the exact hardwear you use close to the vest.

As always, you have been very helpful, thanks.

 

[moss]

Yep, ascend the rope. I have to compare it to the 1:1 ropework I use. Between the having to take two strides up and only gaining 1 stride of altitude, and the 'slop' in the system, AND the (very small) minor amount of creep, or roll in the friction hitch, all added together caused me to weep in considering how much more work and parts and motion you guys employ while thinking it's some sort of solution.

Weep not! For the purposes of ascending DdRT with an "advanced" or closed hitch the solution shown in the photo is a good one. It doesn't compare to 1:1 systems and isn't meant to. It just makes life easier for closed hitch DdRT climbers in certain situations. I don't think anyone would argue against using 1:1 (over 2:1) for ascent from point A on the ground to point B high in the tree.
-moss

 

[woodchux]

I could share design mods I'm offering to Black Diamand and Kong, but I honestly don't think anyone here gives a hoot.

I'm intrested.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

SRT = distance x effort =DdRT = distance x 2 x effort/2 + friction of redirect. Best choice is SRT, unless that is not in your efficient power band; then DdRT to be in that efficient powerband; but at a cost. Exactly the same as anything else!

i like TM's idea of getting over the lip; adding throw legs over; throw them down hard on the other side and flow with the movement. Don't throw them down and then move, do it all at once. Don't let bod be loose, this wastes the leg throw, stay stiff. This is like gymnastics, waste nothing; compound motions by placing them together.

Also, in gymnastics we roll head shoulders forward hard to flip. Hip is pivot, head/shoulders farthest from pivot. The inertia will help carry you, stay stiff and move with it; not after it. Also, as you pivot over you have this inertia, but you are physically moving these body portions forward. This is how we'd rotate around the high bar doing giants. Inertia would carry you almost over, then you'd place head shoulders over to the other side to help it. Just like in a flip; if moving backwards; look at toes, chin to chest; moving forward look away from bod, chin away from chest. Get inertia of that, body placemeant of weight and throw rest of body with it at same time; all these things matter in the efficiency. Work this timing; preserve energy for other things.

Next; think of pivot point on branch; change it to your favor as soon as possible. You can leverage from either end of pivot, but NOTHING is such a change; as a pivotal change. A pivotal change is a 2:1 change; in 1 move you can increase loading on your side; while decreasing loading on the opposing side! You can take a 100# on help side and move it 5' out, or move 100' on load side in 5' to adjust ratio on of effort to loading on lever; but might only have to move pivot 1.5' (depending on situation; but always less than other adjust-meants). Even the language
from olde reflects this understanding with the expression of "a pivotal change"; from times when people exerted there own force more, and understood these things more innately.

The education here about climbing, motion, life etc. is more intense like that for us. In these things we don't read about forces to know them, we don't just watch their flows thru devices or direct with hydraulics; but develop a body knowledge from being the device they flow thru and the brain that adjusts them. There is nothing like that education! It is best not to turn away or blur by these things, but admit to, lend to and embrace them.

i guess the sig says it all.....

 

[lync]

Make a system that works for you

There is no mystery, srt lets you cover more ground allowing you to use those big leg muscles to push your way up the tree. Draw back is ascenders are a one way tool (until someone invents a safe proven one that will let you decend also). doubled rope technique with friction hitch allows for up or down use, but with only 1/2 the progress, and short of foot locking the tail your arms and back even lifting half your weight won't last as long as your legs. Yoda might say find a way to climb trees without killing my self , I must!!
Use both methods! ascend tree srt, use tail of rope doubled rope tech. with hitch of choice to limb walk . Double crotched in allowing tail to pull you out to limb tip. Srt side still attached to high tie in allows pendulam effect and supports the bulk of you weight. Work and return to main trunk. srt to next scaffold, repeat.
Get to the top untie srt anchor doubled rope decend to scaffold branch, tail in there to double crotch if needed work the back of the tree on the way down. Corey

 

[lync]

additional

continued:

While decending back side, if the need arises to ascend simply use one ascender with foot stirrup to grasp falling tail of rope, step and progress sliding hitch up. Its not 1:1 srt but for a short pitch it beats body thrusting.
I avoid body thrusting at all costs, its not an efficent means of fighting gravity.
Corey

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i go with that; will SRT to my Running DBY, then switch over.

If TIP is farther than i need t go; tail of DBY is long to lanyard in at destination, and pull tail down to me and switch. If going to stay 10' below TIP, then place rab in end of rigging line, onto DBY for SRT as retrieval device for switch over to work/ have rigging line without bringing it up with you, then descend.

 

[Tree Machine]

There is no mystery, srt lets you cover more ground allowing you to use those big leg muscles to push your way up the tree.

I often see this, it's sort of a 2:1 DdRT vs 1:1 SRT view of things.


My preferred system is the third one where the rope is up and over the TIP, both ends of the rope are on the ground. Using dual, handled ascenders, you ascend 1:1 up the rope, same as and SRT 1:1, but you're on a doubled line, allowing you to use those big leg muscles to push your way up the tree. I don't think there's a faster, easier way to get up a rope than footlocking 1:1 up a doubled line. That's why I use it; no anchoring the rope, just apply the ascenders, the captive bar and go.

Applying friction, once up there, to the doubled, static, stationary line and then working the line while the rope's ends stay down on the ground, I'm finding, is the rarest of the three climbing methods. I use it because it offers the most in swiftness, security and versatility.

2:1 DdRT offers security, but at a price.

SRT offers swiftness, but it's hardware based and it's only swift of you are truly comfortable on a single line and are secure and certain in the control of the friction- not currently possible using friction hitches, which takes the familiarity out of the equation, thereby squashing the necessary feeling of security.
In SRT friction is 100% controlled right in front of you, so a piece of hardware is essential and in our Arbo world, manufacturers don't make much friction control hardware for 13 mm arbo rope. I'm sure many would be freaky in simply delving into the thinner, 11 mm single line when all their experience is on fatter dual line. I see the barriers to entry in the SRT world, but that's where methods often stop; approaching SRT, not finding it comfortable and secure, going back and trying to finesse the 2:1 DdRT system.

But the essentially unknown third bastard child of the Ropework Family, the one that's figured out how to use all the advantages of it's DdRT and SRT brothers, co-mingled on demand, and then taken beyond with extended versatility, techniques and facets of ropework not possible on either DdRT or SRT used alone.

My instinct is that the 1:1 dual rope should be a stepping stone to SRT, but it's not. It's DdRT, then a rather large step across a rather wide expanse to get to SRT. Hence, very few Arborists climb SRT. The in-between method just seems to be invisible. There has only been one thread in the 4 years that I've been here at arboristsite approaching this mystery method.

I know it seems like you are single handedly carrying this torch.........

Feeling more and more alone as time goes on, mystified in that, somewhat.

If I didn't think this would be beneficial to others, I would keep my mouth shut and not spend valuable daylight hours sharing it with you. And it's somewhat misplaced. I will step aside now as this thread is about CLIMBING KNOTS, and I'm derailing it.

Please accept my apology on that. You may now return to your regularly scheduled program, currently in progress.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Hair splitting point Tom lent me is that sitting static in DdRT is 1:1; your bod pulls down on 2 legs of line while support pulls up on 2 lines; 2:2 = 1:1.

But, in motion; DdRT is a 2:1. You adjsut 1 leg of line that pulls up on you 2x; so 2:1. SRT on single or double line(DRT) should always have at least 1 redundant; life saving connection at waist or above. Mostly that is a friction hitch over cam; friction hitch is more reliable straight and angled wise and is preferred over top of cam(s); so failing cam wouldn't knock it out. Just as Tom wrote about in his article when he first introduced it to our profession.

The friction hitches in SRT/DRT are for ascending only.

In my theories/ imageries: To descend the hitch must be loosened up/ weight off. In DdRT; when we slide hitch, we automatically shift our weight over to the static leg of line terminating at saddle(i've measured with scales on each leg to prove). It magically, automatically takes the load(static leg); just as if 1 leg of line is failing/stretching the other line on a load takes the load. Then the hitch slides. SRT/DRT has no separate , independent leg of line to take the load temporarily to allow slide. This is also why we can go to small redirect point in friction saver/ reapportioner systems in DdRT. Because a lot of the force jumps across to the air to the static leg, not cranking through the tight bight of the FS devices. Thus you can lower self on it; but shouldn't lower someone else on it or a load either; for with one leg on load and one as separate/ remote control, the force then must crank thru the tight bight at the redirect. Totally different mechainc by this s-light change.

 

[lync]

cont'

Doubled handles on a double rope have there own 2:1 system built right in, allowing you to pull down on one leg pulls you up 2:1 as one cam slips on the falling end and one cam holds fast on the other.
Comfort comes from use and familiarity.For our purposes a single rope srt has advantages due to the the doubled ropes difficulty of setting up a redundant system. A single rope with 2 cammed ascenders (hand and foot stirrup) both connected to the saddle,create a backup. A vt with a beaner above either one allows for additional backup with little or no additional friction. And the vt on a single line will allow you to decend(although with some difficulty) a short distance.
Petzl I'd made for 1/2 arborist rope works well and only takes a minute to switch back and forth from ascender to decender. Minor adjustments can be made while in the I'd decending mode by using a RADS system, just a non locking beaner in the handled ascender above the I'd allows fro a quick switch to 2:1 body thrust(i hate that word) . My top ascender has a small non locking beaner for just such an occasion that doubles as a storage point to get straps out of the way when not needed.
You can master any technique with commitment. Corey

 

[moray]

Imbalanced Load?

In my theories/ imageries: To descend the hitch must be loosened up/ weight off. In DdRT; when we slide hitch, we automatically shift our weight over to the static leg of line terminating at saddle(i've measured with scales on each leg to prove). It magically, automatically takes the load(static leg); just as if 1 leg of line is failing/stretching the other line on a load takes the load. Then the hitch slides.

This also may be hair splitting, TS: I disagree that we shift our weight over to the static leg of the line. When we slide the hitch, we DO remove some of the load from the split tail, while our arm/shoulder takes up that precise amount of the load. The static side of the line does not know the difference. Likewise, the moving side of the line, above the knot, also does not know the difference.

I am speaking of the situation when we are in steady descent. It is only in the very brief moment when we switch from stationary to moving that there is any imbalance in the two legs of the line. But perhaps this is what you meant?

 

[RhodyFresh]

best combo?

what do you all think is the best eye & eye prussik chord to use a distel on samson velocity? Right now I'm using this new bee-line stuff and the softness of it seems to make the distel really tight and annoying after a while.