not much of a face cut

[fmaglin]

The main problem I have with guys who say "I don't care if it looks dangerous, this is how I do it" is, what happens when you're doing something dangerous or careless that ends up affecting another guy's livelihood or even their life?

My brother was hooking for a tower side and he got wiped out by some tree-length pieces left in a jackstrawed mess by some jerk-off cutter who was lazy and in a hurry. My brother was doing his job and trying to pick apart the mess. About 30 sticks broke loose and he couldn't get out of there fast enough. He lived, but with catastrophic injuries he'll be dealing with for the rest of his life. He'll never log or do anything in the woods ever again. He can't even hunt or fish now. I'm pretty angry about that, especially since the cutter responsible took an attitude like it had nothing to do with him and the rigging crew should have known better (the choker setter ended up with a fractured skull.)

First off, I'm sorry to hear about your brother; however, I believe you are mis-interpreting my previous post. When I commented "That's the way I do it" I made no indication of putting any other person in jeopardy for my actions. Safety is always my main, number one concern, and I am very respectful of the people that I work around. The point I was trying to make is that everyone has their own technique. A way of working that is comfortable to them. Your technique may not be comfortable for me, as mine may not work for you, when in reality both methods will get the job done. When I'm asked why I did something a certain way, that's my reply. That's the way I do it. Not implying to be a smart azz, or reckless.

 

[Danger Cat]

You misunderstood my post about the "block-out" style Humboldt. I said the block-out style Humboldt came first and then the modified Humboldt (where the bottom cut is angled towards the ground) came along...it was easier to cut the block-out style with crosscuts, and then 'snipe' the front off...either top or bottom. The modified Humboldt was the standard when I went to work in the woods in '90, we just weren't cutting timber big enough to warrant a block-out style cut. Further directional control could be established by leaving a gap where the flat and angled cuts meet on the modern Humboldt...

Finesse does take time to acquire, regardless of the industry. It takes time to build skills and learn control. If we were to take you out of the woods and put you in a helicopter, you wouldn't be smooth or have much finesse right away. However, if you trained and worked with someone who was experienced and could show you the right moves, you'd get it eventually. Most new cutters are painful to watch...

The reason why I mentioned the e-bay deal is that I thought it was quite interesting that you were not willing to communicate with me when I was a customer with a problem, but you wanted to communicate when you though I was 'bagging' on your style. That's very telling of how you operate...
You never mentioned family problems or anything to me (if you had said something, anything- it wouldn't have been an issue.) And it did take two months to get the parts. What you finally told me was that you were busy with work and simply did not have time to ship the parts. I made it known to you immediately and was very easy-going about the situation. You created the acrimony and animosity. I was fixing up saws for log cutter buddies of mine that took a Superior contract down by Gold Beach and needed the extra saws. When I decided you weren't going to send the parts I simply bought new ones. No worries there. I'll gladly send your parts back though.

Your defensive reactions tell me everything I need to know...

For starters. I would like to say that I am very sorry to here about your brother. No one should have to have that happen to them. Especially because some a-hole did not do their job correctly, or professionally for that matter. There were some guys around here pulling that stuff but, thankfully, the economy has weeded most of them out. Segue way, I was pulled out of a strip and the first thing the next morning the new cutter was being packed out, never to cut logs again. The 'tricky stuff' was already finished but I am thinking maybe somebody did not understand what they were looking at. Back now. My policy is and has been for quite awhile to 'narc' myself off first. It is most critical to try and communicate with the riggin' crew directly about any and all seen potential hazards. < Sometimes they roll their eyes??? If you leave it, say it! < I write this without under tones, only sincerity.

Now to address the personality comments. If you would have said extremely sarcastic, buttface, snide, or anal, then yes. Defensive is just not it, though. The anal portion lends itself to the long and detailed (boring?) responses. The rest are self-evident.

Last time on this, for me anyway. I remember apologzing profusely in a blanket email to 6 or 8 customers for my tardyness with an explaination. Maybe it never showed in your box... And maybe that is why I do not remember anything "easy going" coming from your side. It took about two weeks for me to get the parts "in the mail". When the order actually showed I cannot be positive - behind at work < out of town < dealing with family matters.... For that, I will apologize again. The" it took two months" comment could be courtesy of the U.S.P.S. I had a few packages not arrive at there intended destinations. Then people get pissy (usually in a very short time span) and I send them their $ back + shipping, etc. etc. Somehow though the parts never get returned??? Or the times eBay changes the format and your orders do not show up in the right area, but yet they are still registering as posted by the ebay techs. Furthermore, I will make a special trip to the PO the same day if at all possible. Lastly, I did a little reasearch, as far as I could tell, a negative assessment was not left regarding the transaction in question. Since the oppurtunity to leave negitive feedback was not taken advantage of at the appropriate time, then in my humble opinion, to bring it up here was uncalled for and underhanded. I expect that kind of behavior from my 8 year old. In summation, I never found a request for a refund in my email or eBay email? I do not have e.s.p., addmitedly. My offer still stands on refunding your money for the eBay parts. The ball's in your court. I am now officially DONE with the eBay tirade.

It is not neccessarily about communicating with anyone in particular. It is about setting the record straight. You make blanket statements that are not necessarily accurate. Like I make 'dumb and foolish' moves, this , without being there to SEE the situation in person. To know how long I have been looking at, scheming, thinking about it, or what is NOT seen that was done to facilitate the maneuver. Just to let you know, it is not me that looks foolish when commentary like that is made. There is a misstatement in the first sentence of this quote where you mention the "'snipe' the front off...either top or bottom ". For clarifcation purposes, a 'snipe' is taken out of the stump and a 'scarf' is taken out of the butt of the tree. Again, these are done for timing issues you need for the individual tree.

Regarding the modified Humboldt being the standard when you went to work in the 90's, that was a regional 'thing', for your specific locale. There were still fallers using the original around here. Additionally, I did not think the miss understanding was in the reading, but rather, in the writing. It reads backward to me. I first came across the post talking about the modified Humboldt without the modified part being stated. If someone is going to get 'in depth' about cutting technique then they need to be acc-u -rat about it, just my opinion though. I use so called miss matched (gap) undercuts with the modified Humboldt, the farmer, the halfy - 1/2 farmer 1/2 modified Humboldt, and Humboldt (on occasion) style faces all the time. Most notably, when the gap is larger on one side to try and leverage the tree a certain way or compensate for ???. It can bite you in the butt when there are holding wood issues, however. (the last sentence is for any would be tree assassins)

Finesse, in my humble opinion, can be learned over time yes. Taught, no. You might be able to speed the process up a little. Mistakes have to be made first (sometimes repeatedly) by the faller or whoever. Finesse is an internal thing. It is up to the individual, period. I have seen guys that started out being able to tear up an anvil, and with time, can tear it up faster. Although, we might be measuring the same thing, just talking about it from different angles.


____________________________

If you are paying attention... There is still some learning to be had!

 

[tramp bushler]

For what it's worth; if you are going to cut a tree the way that it is displayed in the pic, and it has any side lean at all, and that is not where you want it to go:monkeywhere it is leaning) You will NOT be able to control it with a little scratch of an undercut like that. This is how they teach in the Forest Service, and other places...I had a friend from Germany that went to a "tree faller" school, who would "blaze" an undercut on a tree like that too, and could never understand the logic of how us Pacific Northwest Timber Fallers did it until he spent some time with the crews that I worked with for Columbia...then he understood, and could see how us poor dumb old boys did it If I were a guy wanting to REALLY learn how to fall timber, I would pay more attention to more guys like hotsaws101's videos (although, most of the techniques that he displays in his videos are fairly advanced and should ONLY be tried if a guy has some good timber falling mechanics and fundamentals), and shy away from all of the "procedural" "by the book" types. Just my two cents! I know..."I would never make it in their world, and they would never make it in mine"

..Their world sucks , so don,t worry about it ... You got to go to alot of college to learn how to do something that wrong and think it is right ...... The proof is in the $$$$$$ ... We fall the most expensive timber in the world and we don,t do alot of bore cuts , and we sure as #$%^ don,t senselessly pound wedges ..... Beating wedges on everything means you don,t know how to fall timber so it goes where it is supposed to go on it,s own , ... I set a wedge in the back cut on alot of trees ,but I don,t pound on the thing to try to horse a tree around very often .....With these stubby bars it is easy to see why the hard wood boys don,t use humbolt faces ........
. I believe in a procedural aproach to falling timber , as taught by D. Doug Dent , in his book Professional Timber Falling ..........But then he isn,t a college edjucate stupid @#$%^& !! Sorry about that boys but there are a million ways to do it wrong and beating wedges into a bore cut on a straight tree is just ignorant !!!!! Putting in a good part of the back cut first ,then pounding it up , is doable and I do it sometimes with smaller trees that I want to go hard against the lean ..... But it doesn,t take much more time , and often much less time with better results than conventionally falling the tree,(ie face first ,then back cut ,then wedge .) if there isn't enough room in the back cut for both the bar and the wedge ....

 

[Jacob J.]

..Their world sucks , so don,t worry about it ... You got to go to alot of college to learn how to do something that wrong and think it is right ...... The proof is in the $$$$$$ ... We fall the most expensive timber in the world and we don,t do alot of bore cuts , and we sure as #$%^ don,t senselessly pound wedges ..... Beating wedges on everything means you don,t know how to fall timber so it goes where it is supposed to go on it,s own , ... I set a wedge in the back cut on alot of trees ,but I don,t pound on the thing to try to horse a tree around very often .....With these stubby bars it is easy to see why the hard wood boys don,t use humbolt faces ........
. I believe in a procedural aproach to falling timber , as taught by D. Doug Dent , in his book Professional Timber Falling ..........But then he isn,t a college edjucate stupid @#$%^& !! Sorry about that boys but there are a million ways to do it wrong and beating wedges into a bore cut on a straight tree is just ignorant !!!!! Putting in a good part of the back cut first ,then pounding it up , is doable and I do it sometimes with smaller trees that I want to go hard against the lean ..... But it doesn,t take much more time , and often much less time with better results than conventionally falling the tree,(ie face first ,then back cut ,then wedge .) if there isn't enough room in the back cut for both the bar and the wedge ....

Actually...Doug Dent has a Master's Degree in Business Management is about one of the smartest men I've ever met. He's also a real good egg.

 

[hammerlogging]

Hold on now.

At what point was it determined that he was not photographed while demonstrating a too thin of a face?

Or, if it is as intended, why have a hinge wider than necessary if there is no side lean?

lastly, a question that I can ask with great certainty, is what is the difference between an open face hinge on a butt swollen (eastern hadwood)tree where the hinge length is approx. 80% dbh, and a humbolt hinge on a non tapered tree where the hinge length is 1/3 to 1/2 the deep--- wait, that creates a hinge that is 80% the dbh. ITS THE SAME!!!!

And now, for some math.... If my vertical cut is 6 inches tall, and my horizontal cut is 2 inches deep, but Gary's (just for fun, cause I know you love these discussions, again) humbolt has 4 inches deep vertical cut and a 4 inch deep inclined cut, who has cut more wood? Hmmmmm, 6+2=4+4.

And due to different growth styles, neither have removed merchantable material from the butt log. Wow, different trees, different technique, same results.

You can swing trees with an open face, and no east coast production faller wants to pound wedges any more than you.

Now, if you say well that ripping crap is slower, I suggest asking someone to file for you and try it with a sharp chain.

That box ain't locked, you're free to think outside it of you feel like it.

Jeez, it so simple.

 

[Burvol]

A lot of how deep you face a tree has to do with how much leverage you need... The hinge is the leverage. Weight fore or aft. A sheep's you know what can be used in straight ahead, no gimmick timber that is bar width or less, but bigger trees need a little more finese and attention in my opinion. On bigger timber on steep ground with a 32, I like to cut the face, go over and finish the face on the far side, start cutting up the far wood, and walk the saw around to the high side, when possible. All situations are different, and the wood has to be solid to do some of the tricks. Soft or rotton wood needs a true, fundemantal approach with no games or tricks in my opinion.

 

[tramp bushler]

. Whether Doug Dent went to college or not he has the smarts to know how to fall timber . Or to put it another way , college didn,t make him stupid ....I really like his book and learned alot from it .....
Hammer , what are you talking about ????? I know what you said , ,but I don,t see your point ..........That odd looking chicken face the wedge pounder had put in at the start of this thread was useless . At first glance I thot he had just knocked the bark off with an ax , like you would if there were fly rock in the bark ......

 

[hammerlogging]

Hammer , what are you talking about ????? I know what you said , ,but I don,t see your point ..........That odd looking chicken face the wedge pounder had put in at the start of this thread was useless . At first glance I thot he had just knocked the bark off with an ax , like you would if there were fly rock in the bark ......

I know I know it was a stupid shallow as heck face cut, I just wanted to point out some basic concepts to address the ongoing east coast felling bashing because a lot of this bashing is uninformed, or at least not considering all of the circumstances such as heavier crowns, harder (slower cutting) wood, butt swell, elements that lead to our widely adopted and HIGHLY recommended technique. Call any mill in Appalachia thats ever had a helicopter with west coast fallers log a unit and ask them how their fallers did. Or, ask my boss why we cut our own wood when we sub the logging to the birds. We cut the way we do for a damn good reason. Its not you, its the greater conversation I am addressing.

 

[056kid]

I know I know it was a stupid shallow as heck face cut, I just wanted to point out some basic concepts to address the ongoing east coast felling bashing because a lot of this bashing is uninformed, or at least not considering all of the circumstances such as heavier crowns, harder (slower cutting) wood, butt swell, elements that lead to our widely adopted and HIGHLY recommended technique. Call any mill in Appalachia thats ever had a helicopter with west coast fallers log a unit and ask them how their fallers did. Or, ask my boss why we cut our own wood when we sub the logging to the birds. We cut the way we do for a damn good reason. Its not you, its the greater conversation I am addressing.

Now,
I fully respect what you are saying, but I have to disagree on some of it.

Yes alot of trees swell at the butt, but if you are on a hill throwing timber anything besides up hill, humboldt just seems easier. hell when the trees are big and the hill is steep, you dont always have the option of a shallow tall face but thoes are the 3 or 4 to every 50 or so acres that really draw attension!.(Yes even in the east coast.)
The foresters would ask me if I was from the west coast when they would come to see if we where tearing #### up too much, I would ask why, they would say because "the way you cut your notch". I think more east coasters would adopt west coast teqniques if they where exposed, than west coasters finding uses for the (GOL) stuff...

And im tellin ya right now, the narrower the face angle, the faster the saw cuts.
I dont even carry wedges on me, no need for the extra tools when you dont need them, and i think the same way in terms of faces, if you can get the tree committed where you want it after it has tilted 25 or 30 degrees, whats the point of the other 55 degrees of void that has been removed just a waste of time & effort.

Then the subject of trees that dont really have much flair at all' Poplars come to mind with pines & really all the rest in places..

 

[forestryworks]

the narrower the face angle, the faster the saw cuts.

what are you gettin' at?

 

[hammerlogging]

Now,
I fully respect what you are saying, but I have to disagree on some of it.

Yes alot of trees swell at the butt, but if you are on a hill throwing timber anything besides up hill, humboldt just seems easier. hell when the trees are big and the hill is steep, you dont always have the option of a shallow tall face but thoes are the 3 or 4 to every 50 or so acres that really draw attension!.(Yes even in the east coast.)
The foresters would ask me if I was from the west coast when they would come to see if we where tearing #### up too much, I would ask why, they would say because "the way you cut your notch". I think more east coasters would adopt west coast teqniques if they where exposed, than west coasters finding uses for the (GOL) stuff...

And im tellin ya right now, the narrower the face angle, the faster the saw cuts.
I dont even carry wedges on me, no need for the extra tools when you dont need them, and i think the same way in terms of faces, if you can get the tree committed where you want it after it has tilted 25 or 30 degrees, whats the point of the other 55 degrees of void that has been removed just a waste of time & effort.

Then the subject of trees that dont really have much flair at all' Poplars come to mind with pines & really all the rest in places..

I hear ya dude I know what you're sayin, just pointing out some concepts to some naysayers.

I don't think you can get your hinge down to 1/2" to 3/4" max thickness backcutting though, without having to be under a falling tree and too little time for escape, except for poplars. Just depends. Yes, you can back cut lots of them, and you can bore a humbolt too, if desired.

Even today, i was cutting another SMZ (with hella fine timber too) and had to drop a couple clear across the steep drain and did the block face with the little slope (some sort of modified humbolt) and had extraordinary results not breaking logs by getting the butt to hit the ground first. Poplars.

Not a big deal, and I'm sure you understand both sides of the conversation.

 

[056kid]

Fo sho..

 

[056kid]

what are you gettin' at?

Im gettin at when you dont need to control a tree more than (x) degrees, dont waste time on some (x)+ 30 degree face...

Every tree that falls starts out completely controlled, as gravity takes over, the control lessens until near the end of the fall, the tree is controlling itself completely just before smacking the ground. So if a 1/3 deep 25 degree face can produce the same results as a 1/8 deep 85 degree face, what is the advantage of the latter setup? I have not run stop watch tests, but I would bet 50 dollars that the deeper narrower face will take less time to cut up(to the deck) than the shallow wide face.Because cutting straight across the grain produces faster cuts than ripping down the log.
And there is less wood to cut behind the deeper face(2/3) than the shallow face (7/8). less when holding wood is accounted for.

Som may argue that you are cutting the same no matter what..




but then you get a tree that has considerable side lean and everything changes...

 

[hammerlogging]

Im gettin at when you dont need to control a tree more than (x) degrees, dont waste time on some (x)+ 30 degree face...

Every tree that falls starts out completely controlled, as gravity takes over, the control lessens until near the end of the fall, the tree is controlling itself completely just before smacking the ground. So if a 1/3 deep 25 degree face can produce the same results as a 1/8 deep 85 degree face, what is the advantage of the latter setup? I have not run stop watch tests, but I would bet 50 dollars that the deeper narrower face will take less time to cut up(to the deck) than the shallow wide face.Because cutting straight across the grain produces faster cuts than ripping down the log.
And there is less wood to cut behind the deeper face(2/3) than the shallow face (7/8). less when holding wood is accounted for.

Som may argue that you are cutting the same no matter what..




but then you get a tree that has considerable side lean and everything changes...

Roger that. In fact, GOL emphasizes the open face so that the tree stays on the hinge longer but in fact when you're threading the needle I want it to pop off the hinge early so that it can "fold" through the canopy- let the trunk turn as lateral limbs brush through adjacent trees. If your hinge is too thick you'll slab the face of the butt log BAD for $. So face it how you want, fine, but you better still bore that money wood. Open face, better have a super thin hinge. Back cut, trees falling while your finishing the hinge increasing the hazard cause you're still under there cutting finishing the hinge. Bore cut any and all $ trees. (hardwood)

Its a lot easier to see your bore to make a perfect hinge on an open face though.

And, back to what I was originally saying, its not whats right or wrong, its different, for a purpose. Anthropocentric is the word I think, for what I'm suggesting is avoided.

I guess I'm talking about more than one subject here, faces and bores, and #### it anyhow. Have a good evening all.

 

[bullbuck]

Now,
I fully respect what you are saying, but I have to disagree on some of it.

Yes alot of trees swell at the butt, but if you are on a hill throwing timber anything besides up hill, humboldt just seems easier. hell when the trees are big and the hill is steep, you dont always have the option of a shallow tall face but thoes are the 3 or 4 to every 50 or so acres that really draw attension!.(Yes even in the east coast.)
The foresters would ask me if I was from the west coast when they would come to see if we where tearing #### up too much, I would ask why, they would say because "the way you cut your notch". I think more east coasters would adopt west coast teqniques if they where exposed, than west coasters finding uses for the (GOL) stuff...

And im tellin ya right now, the narrower the face angle, the faster the saw cuts.
I dont even carry wedges on me, no need for the extra tools when you dont need them, and i think the same way in terms of faces, if you can get the tree committed where you want it after it has tilted 25 or 30 degrees, whats the point of the other 55 degrees of void that has been removed just a waste of time & effort.

Then the subject of trees that dont really have much flair at all' Poplars come to mind with pines & really all the rest in places..

i agree "no wedges"but have you ever skidded your own strip 056?not trying to start a battle,just wondered how much you know about removal?

 

[clearance]

I dont even carry wedges on me, no need for the extra tools

What?

 

[056kid]

i agree "no wedges"but have you ever skidded your own strip 056?not trying to start a battle,just wondered how much you know about removal?

Yep.

For a while i cut, hooked, and drug to a "safe place" then the other dude would take it on..


If the skidder cant push pr pull it over, and I cant push it over with a tree, there are plenty of wedges in the skidder.

Good hickory saplings make good wedges & good hammers if things get hairy...

 

[bullbuck]

Yep.

For a while i cut, hooked, and drug to a "safe place" then the other dude would take it on..


If the skidder cant push pr pull it over, and I cant push it over with a tree, there are plenty of wedges in the skidder.

Good hickory saplings make good wedges & good hammers if things get hairy...

understood

 

[tramp bushler]

A wedge in each back pocket can hardly be considered burdensome ....You wouldn,t get away with that up here cutting in the wind ..

 

[056kid]

A wedge in each back pocket can hardly be considered burdensome ....You wouldn,t get away with that up here cutting in the wind ..

I bet!
cutting in the wind isent very fun
like, cut cut, wait wait wait, cut cut wait. . .

i have tried the back pocket thing and it dosent bother me, but they are usually not there when I reach for them, the right back pocket is for the saw wrench any way.