Stumper
One Man Band
Yup......pie!
A lot has changed for us both in the past year.
A lot has changed for us both in the past year.
Saddle Set UP
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Kneejerk Bombas
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I hate to jump back and forth on this disscusion but I did want to comment on Tom's assertion that any saddle will do.
Because there is no standard for saddles, can we agree that they should meet the requirement that each part of the climbing system meet's the 5400 pound minimum? If so, the Butterfly complicates things because the snaps have an 1800 pound breaking strength, I've heard, don't want to mention the source of that information, and don't know if it's right or wrong.
Because there is no standard for saddles, can we agree that they should meet the requirement that each part of the climbing system meet's the 5400 pound minimum? If so, the Butterfly complicates things because the snaps have an 1800 pound breaking strength, I've heard, don't want to mention the source of that information, and don't know if it's right or wrong.
Kneejerk Bombas
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I want to add that I climb on a Butterfly and think it's safe and the best saddle out there, hands down.
Tom Dunlap
Addicted to ArboristSite
Mike,
At the Z133 meeting in DC last week, Jim Pennefeather, from B'ham said that they tested the buckles on the B'fly and, I seem to remember but I didn't write the numbers down, they broke closer to around 4K#. Still below the 5k# of rope.
Untill we know exactly what standards saddles are tested to, all of these breaking strengths don't mean much. From what I've gleaned from UIAA and now EN testing, the saddles are tested in a "fit for use" scenario. The saddle is put onto a test dummy and dropped. Saddles are tested like their used not by testing each piece of the whole.
I've gotten some clarification on the B'fly and it looks really good. Until I get permission to share the information from its source, I have to respect the author's privacy. This topic may soon be put to rest.
An over riding consideration in all of this: there is little to no "testing" on the holding strength of climbing hitches. There are only three sets of tests that I know about. Considering all of the combinations and permutations of rope, cord and climber weight, I think that worrying about a buckle breaking at 4k# or even 1,800# is less of a concern.
Tom
At the Z133 meeting in DC last week, Jim Pennefeather, from B'ham said that they tested the buckles on the B'fly and, I seem to remember but I didn't write the numbers down, they broke closer to around 4K#. Still below the 5k# of rope.
Untill we know exactly what standards saddles are tested to, all of these breaking strengths don't mean much. From what I've gleaned from UIAA and now EN testing, the saddles are tested in a "fit for use" scenario. The saddle is put onto a test dummy and dropped. Saddles are tested like their used not by testing each piece of the whole.
I've gotten some clarification on the B'fly and it looks really good. Until I get permission to share the information from its source, I have to respect the author's privacy. This topic may soon be put to rest.
An over riding consideration in all of this: there is little to no "testing" on the holding strength of climbing hitches. There are only three sets of tests that I know about. Considering all of the combinations and permutations of rope, cord and climber weight, I think that worrying about a buckle breaking at 4k# or even 1,800# is less of a concern.
Tom
I think some of getting past gear check is how you "sell" your gear. My tres cord was Sta-set 8mm from Sailnet.com. Another guy had the same cord and when asked about it, he said it was from a sailing/marine supply store - cord banned. When I was asked, I said it is Sta-set made by NE Ropes when tied in a system has a brk. strength of 6000lbs. No problem.
Anyone who bans the bfly is a friggin moron. It is that simple. That or they need to publicly declare and denounce the EN, CE, and TUV cert systems.
With lawsuits being everywhere, everything gets over engineered to prevent their a$$ from getting sued. If European standards are lighter, maybe it is a result of effective tort reform and the lack of runaway slip and fall type lawsuits. This problem goes deep.
Know your equipment, know the ratings of all the components.
Anyone who bans the bfly is a friggin moron. It is that simple. That or they need to publicly declare and denounce the EN, CE, and TUV cert systems.
With lawsuits being everywhere, everything gets over engineered to prevent their a$$ from getting sued. If European standards are lighter, maybe it is a result of effective tort reform and the lack of runaway slip and fall type lawsuits. This problem goes deep.
Know your equipment, know the ratings of all the components.
Brian, glad to hear you got a new saddle. I would have never guess you'd been climbing on an old style saddle. I'd put money on you being able to that same tree in 1 day instead of two with the new saddle and little ambition.
I finally got to use my butterfly today. I running all around and had a crew out with a new climber. I showed and the climber asked how he was to get to the top of one the leads. He said he was going to try and reach over with a pole saw and make this 8 inch cut. I told him to worry about the side he was in and I would take care of it. So anyway I single lined to the top of that lead and tied in with my new RG and cut the tops and out and came down. I never realized that I was wearing a legstrap saddle. It was as everybit comfortable as my modified Buckingham and even more comfortable. I'm very satisfied with it.
I finally got to use my butterfly today. I running all around and had a crew out with a new climber. I showed and the climber asked how he was to get to the top of one the leads. He said he was going to try and reach over with a pole saw and make this 8 inch cut. I told him to worry about the side he was in and I would take care of it. So anyway I single lined to the top of that lead and tied in with my new RG and cut the tops and out and came down. I never realized that I was wearing a legstrap saddle. It was as everybit comfortable as my modified Buckingham and even more comfortable. I'm very satisfied with it.
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
My understanding of the load design of the saddles is that the waist will take X% and each keg will take Y%. Cannot remember exactly, but I think one was quoted as 60 for the waist belt, and 20% for each leg. If that is the formula then each leg assembly should resist up to at least 1000# of force.
How much of a reform?
i look as the line as a 'wearable' resource, and think that it and all the abuse it gets, it should be strongest link.
But if someone was ok'd on jobsite/competition to use an 1800# D-ring, could they then get 'bleeped' for not using a 5000# snap/karab to link to it?
How low can we go? Should any part of a system be able to take a 250# man (yeah , like i'm worried!) dropped 5'? ........With a safety factor?
Of course any give/abosrbtion in the line/TIP would buffer some of those numbers, but i don't think that should be factored in.
But if we here, were the concerned and informed to decide for everyone else, what test dummy (throw me back, i'm too small) from what height drop, with what safety factor are we drawing to?
Shoud the categories of breakdown be metals, non- frictioned synthetics, frictioned synthetics? Should every supporting feature be calculated in single line pull, or some calculated as shared supports ie. would a side D for lanyard that is used typically in conjuction with another side D, have to be as strong as a single karab that would be used to hold all of your weight?
i've heard a lot of that laughing myself Brian, sounds like it fades rather quickly? Is that seat board a 'hard' sit?
Been a few times working around others that the other climbers where already up, i'm still throwing lines in...... pre-setting the far end of rigs in, so all i have to do is butt tie and cut to remove a huge horizontal etc. cradled between the 2 lines. Few swings, whipping out rescue pulleys and slings to redirect high support and friction to right where i want, to rig something off a skinny branch that had hardly any real weight on it ( most force on high support), so branch just plumbobbs load under it, working around the tree like that in stations from the same high support. if the branch isn't quite over a good delivery area, stringing slings from opposite angle than high support that makes the line deliver to a sweet spot. They don't whisper and make faces quite as much the next day you show up, to be sure!
:alien:
i look as the line as a 'wearable' resource, and think that it and all the abuse it gets, it should be strongest link.
But if someone was ok'd on jobsite/competition to use an 1800# D-ring, could they then get 'bleeped' for not using a 5000# snap/karab to link to it?
How low can we go? Should any part of a system be able to take a 250# man (yeah , like i'm worried!) dropped 5'? ........With a safety factor?
Of course any give/abosrbtion in the line/TIP would buffer some of those numbers, but i don't think that should be factored in.
But if we here, were the concerned and informed to decide for everyone else, what test dummy (throw me back, i'm too small) from what height drop, with what safety factor are we drawing to?
Shoud the categories of breakdown be metals, non- frictioned synthetics, frictioned synthetics? Should every supporting feature be calculated in single line pull, or some calculated as shared supports ie. would a side D for lanyard that is used typically in conjuction with another side D, have to be as strong as a single karab that would be used to hold all of your weight?
i've heard a lot of that laughing myself Brian, sounds like it fades rather quickly? Is that seat board a 'hard' sit?
Been a few times working around others that the other climbers where already up, i'm still throwing lines in...... pre-setting the far end of rigs in, so all i have to do is butt tie and cut to remove a huge horizontal etc. cradled between the 2 lines. Few swings, whipping out rescue pulleys and slings to redirect high support and friction to right where i want, to rig something off a skinny branch that had hardly any real weight on it ( most force on high support), so branch just plumbobbs load under it, working around the tree like that in stations from the same high support. if the branch isn't quite over a good delivery area, stringing slings from opposite angle than high support that makes the line deliver to a sweet spot. They don't whisper and make faces quite as much the next day you show up, to be sure!
:alien:
Froggy
ArboristSite Operative
Saddle
Well I have to say ignoring all the rules. If a climber is comfortable with his or her know how and knows what they feel is comfortable in a tree. Then they should use their own experiance combined with their know how on choosing gear. Along with all the up to date research and information out there. It all boils down to what a climber feels safe with in a tree. As I've been told many times it's your a$$ up there. So you have to feel the safest and most comfortable you can possibly with out putting your life in the hands of others oppenions. So use what you know combined with what you can learn to choose your gear.
Well I have to say ignoring all the rules. If a climber is comfortable with his or her know how and knows what they feel is comfortable in a tree. Then they should use their own experiance combined with their know how on choosing gear. Along with all the up to date research and information out there. It all boils down to what a climber feels safe with in a tree. As I've been told many times it's your a$$ up there. So you have to feel the safest and most comfortable you can possibly with out putting your life in the hands of others oppenions. So use what you know combined with what you can learn to choose your gear.
Tim Gardner
ArboristSite Guru
Brian, congratulations on the new saddle purchase. After climbing with the butt strap and leg strap saddles I will stay with the leg strap. The freedom of movement is the biggest reason but I will not miss the hip squeeze or the butt strap creeping up.
The accident my brother had while climbing is enough to illustrate the need for a saddle to hold more than just the climber’s weight. One of the logs they were roping out fell in the wrong direction and a small stub managed to get caught on his saddle. It held until the log was secured and the saddle was then cut away. If the saddle had not been over built it would have given way and he most likely would have died on the job site. I am sure the strength built into a saddle is not there for every day use. It is there for the one time when things go wrong.
The accident my brother had while climbing is enough to illustrate the need for a saddle to hold more than just the climber’s weight. One of the logs they were roping out fell in the wrong direction and a small stub managed to get caught on his saddle. It held until the log was secured and the saddle was then cut away. If the saddle had not been over built it would have given way and he most likely would have died on the job site. I am sure the strength built into a saddle is not there for every day use. It is there for the one time when things go wrong.
Last edited:
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
I'm talking about the legstapdesign since that is what the b'fly is, and assuming the minamal requirment of 5000# I'm sure the design is derivated from logging/lineman belts which have their own standard.
In taking the 5000# standard, then a side D would need a minimum of 2500# since it is an attachment point. BTW I've been told that ANSI reqiures not using side D's as single points of attachment. That is, you should not take a wrap and clip you flip line off to itself and then just one D.
FWIW
NickfromWI
Addicted to ArboristSite
Two things
First, regarding what John Paul just said about not using a single D-ring for a tie-in-point. I've read and had it advised to me when taking down big chunks of a spar that you are flip-lined in to, one SHOULD have both end's of the flip line connected to the same ring. That way, if the spar splits, the climber will not get sucked/slammed into the tree.
Food for thought.
Finally, regarding how strong things need to be to hold a person. Ever since I first started climbing, I always thought a 10:1 safety factor was smart. That means that if I weigh 165, I could concievably climb on a rope rated at 1,650lbs. For my footlock prussiks (which are NOT doubled-over because there is an eye on each end) I feel good on a rope that is at least 3,000lbs. (Which is well above 10:1, for you math-nuts)
I guess that's it.
love
nick
First, regarding what John Paul just said about not using a single D-ring for a tie-in-point. I've read and had it advised to me when taking down big chunks of a spar that you are flip-lined in to, one SHOULD have both end's of the flip line connected to the same ring. That way, if the spar splits, the climber will not get sucked/slammed into the tree.
Food for thought.
Finally, regarding how strong things need to be to hold a person. Ever since I first started climbing, I always thought a 10:1 safety factor was smart. That means that if I weigh 165, I could concievably climb on a rope rated at 1,650lbs. For my footlock prussiks (which are NOT doubled-over because there is an eye on each end) I feel good on a rope that is at least 3,000lbs. (Which is well above 10:1, for you math-nuts)
I guess that's it.
love
nick
Stumper
One Man Band
Backing up to something that Burnham posted 2 weeks ago. He said that no D on the market meets the 5000 lb standard. The D's on my Weaver are clearly stamped 5000 lb and the date of manufacture!
I agree with everyone that the standard is High, Arbitrary and -sometimes -vague. If the saddle as a unit meets a reasonable standard there should never be a problem.
I agree with everyone that the standard is High, Arbitrary and -sometimes -vague. If the saddle as a unit meets a reasonable standard there should never be a problem.
Tim Walsh
ArboristSite Member
I think that JPS was referring to not tying in to a single side D ring, as the saddles were not meant to take a shock load on that point (neither is your body).
Nick, the standard says:
"9.4.4 When large cuts are being made in single spar trees, both ends of the work-positioning lanyard should be attached to a single point on the arborist saddle to prevent injury to the arborist should the spar split. The same technique should be used when making large cuts on large horizontal limbs which might also split. Hip or side dee rings of the arborist saddle should not be used for this purpose."
I take this to mean that one should attach both ends of the lanyard to a central point (D-ring or other point that you would normally tie into) on the saddle, not just a single point. That is to say, this is what I do.
Thanks,
TMW
Nick, the standard says:
"9.4.4 When large cuts are being made in single spar trees, both ends of the work-positioning lanyard should be attached to a single point on the arborist saddle to prevent injury to the arborist should the spar split. The same technique should be used when making large cuts on large horizontal limbs which might also split. Hip or side dee rings of the arborist saddle should not be used for this purpose."
I take this to mean that one should attach both ends of the lanyard to a central point (D-ring or other point that you would normally tie into) on the saddle, not just a single point. That is to say, this is what I do.
Thanks,
TMW
Burnham
ArboristSite Operative
Sounds like I need to check my D rings for markings...or lack thereof. Ya thunk ya knew sumpin', then...Thanks, Stumper; time for a trip to the gear locker. Anyone else got input on how the individual components of their harnesses are marked?
Kneejerk Bombas
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Not only is it always safer to attach in the center, it's a lot easier. Who wants their weight suspended from the sides, unless all your weight is on a different line and you only use the lanyard for positioning, and even then, it's still nicer to be attached in the center.
I said it for years, but nobody listens to me, same thing with saw handles, you all just think I'm nuts, until you figure it out, then it's: oh yeah, it is better.
I said it for years, but nobody listens to me, same thing with saw handles, you all just think I'm nuts, until you figure it out, then it's: oh yeah, it is better.
Rob Murphy
ArboristSite Operative
Rocky Can you post the pic .....I can't find my 2002 cattledog...now did I lend it to someone???Does sherril do an online version?With the cartoons I mean.
Be him ever so humble their's no bloke like Mike
Rob Murphy
ArboristSite Operative
Early on in my climbing i had the same thing happen to me ! I was tied in with my climber and attached to a large leaning spar with my wire core lanyard. I put the face cut in and then started the back cut. Shortly into the back cut the limb started to split....I remember letting go of the saw and trying to relase the lanyard clip...the limb hung there as I fiddled with the clip.Crack ...the limb let go ..and I hung there and and still cliped in to the spar. There was simply not enough time .I was a major lesson for me..
The facecut is like a pressure relief, allowing tremendous leveraged force to flow in that direction. It's shape reminsicient of a tire chock built to hold force back. Without facecutting is allowing that force to build up back pressure and split, barber chairing etc. Just as directly in line to the rear is the most leveraged pulling restriction, the farthest outward point of tree circumfrence in line with the fall, is the most leveraged pushing restriction (face). Both are most leveraged positions of passive force restriction, showing the power of each these twins here, in the example of the face cut on the one side.
On suspect toppings (split, dead, weak species etc.)sometimes i put a sling around 2 x, and get it basketed around tightly on a karab in long axis position, then leverage the length of the karab to stand out perpendicular to spar, so sling (perhaps series of loop runners) tightens even more. sometimes i lock it around a stob to stay in position, or even hook to belt for support too. Lean back to maintain sling set in tightened position on spar. shouldn't split that stuff on the scale i play at, and if it did, i think id, be alright,a s it let go of karab.
When rigging out on cracked spar, block/top and catch, have found that the choking action of the pulley's attatchment to the spar helps keep the cylindrical solid shape, aiding in preventing cracking.
Trucker's 2" webbing and ratchet is about 10k, is pretty good too. Especially when final tightening is with empty drum; point of most mechanical advantage/ leverage. Same as using come-a-long to tighten, maintain cylindrical shape, empty spool is most leverage; but come along needs a couple wraps so main pull goes to friction on drum and not mechanical stop on end of cable in to drum(weakest point), with the most pulling leverage the device could muster(empty spool).
One emergency job i did that at night with 2 binders, then put a line on worrisome limb over house, close to it's center of balance; gave direct overhead support ran line across top of the tree over column of direct support through trunk, tied to limb on the other side with tight line. Then cut that 2nd limb off to hang on the safe side, to support the limb over the house, even dampen motion nicely. So i could do it more safely in the light, for it was huge, wet, with more rain in the hour. Also, so i could disarm the one next door quickly!
On suspect toppings (split, dead, weak species etc.)sometimes i put a sling around 2 x, and get it basketed around tightly on a karab in long axis position, then leverage the length of the karab to stand out perpendicular to spar, so sling (perhaps series of loop runners) tightens even more. sometimes i lock it around a stob to stay in position, or even hook to belt for support too. Lean back to maintain sling set in tightened position on spar. shouldn't split that stuff on the scale i play at, and if it did, i think id, be alright,a s it let go of karab.
When rigging out on cracked spar, block/top and catch, have found that the choking action of the pulley's attatchment to the spar helps keep the cylindrical solid shape, aiding in preventing cracking.
Trucker's 2" webbing and ratchet is about 10k, is pretty good too. Especially when final tightening is with empty drum; point of most mechanical advantage/ leverage. Same as using come-a-long to tighten, maintain cylindrical shape, empty spool is most leverage; but come along needs a couple wraps so main pull goes to friction on drum and not mechanical stop on end of cable in to drum(weakest point), with the most pulling leverage the device could muster(empty spool).
One emergency job i did that at night with 2 binders, then put a line on worrisome limb over house, close to it's center of balance; gave direct overhead support ran line across top of the tree over column of direct support through trunk, tied to limb on the other side with tight line. Then cut that 2nd limb off to hang on the safe side, to support the limb over the house, even dampen motion nicely. So i could do it more safely in the light, for it was huge, wet, with more rain in the hour. Also, so i could disarm the one next door quickly!
