Welder, Welding questions for log splitter

[John D]

Hmmm, would a lincoln SP-135T be enough? I never gave the welder any thought. Its been enough for the stuff Ive done, not sure about the splitter now.

You wont be able to get adequete penetration with 135amps if your welding at or over 3/16",IMO.Second problem is the 20% duty cycle.You need a 230V machine at the minimum.That Lincoln is great or exhaust,sheet metsl work,autobody,etc.Not welding thick metal like splitters.

 

[SWI Don]

All the blue and red and gray and white. All great machines. My personal stable is Green (now yellow). My splitter was welded via a Linde (now ESAB) 250HF TIG welder. I TIGed (GTAW) everything under 1/2" and sticked (GMAW) every thing over. All of the critical welds were 7018/7014.

I now also have an Ltec (still green) Migmaster 250 that I have used on some of the newer additions.

Learning to stick weld first is the best think to do in my opinion. For one thing it is about the most versitile welder you can get aside from a TIG welder with are almost all great stick welders also. You can make crappy looking welds that hold well with stick vs nice looking mig welds that don't.

Mig welding is fast - that is why it exists - high deposition rates. I wouldn't even think about a 120v mig for log splitter fabrication. If mig is what you want then get a 250 amp class mig and a roll of .045 wire and start practicing on some heavy sections.

As far as a engine drive, I understand the SA200 is one of the finest dc welders out there but it has no AC generation. If you have ever wondered how come some of the power tools are rated AC/DC, that is why, so they can be run from the outlets on a DC only welder. I would personally take the advice of the others here and look at a newer 10-12Kw AC/DC welder that could be a backup generator also. That is my next welder. Sometimes you can buy a decent used welder generator for not much more than just the genset (new).

Don

 

[timberwolf]

It has been said, but though the mig is attractive in terms of ease of use and cost it is not in general the ticket for joining materials over 1/4 to 5/16 of an inch.

MIG welders over 200-250 amps can do it, but not the general <$500 hobby units. Forget 110 volt all together.

The trouble with MIG is it's too easy to put down a good looking bead that has near zero strength. At least with arc if you get a good looking bead down with curent set where it should be the weld has a high chance of being sound.

That 7018 AC rod does run nice, don't buy 40lb more than you need though, old welding rod is little good esp 7018.

One thing too is think twice befor buying an off shore ebay welder at 1/3 the price. I follow a couple welding forums and there are hundreds of threads on dead and defunked offshore units and major hastles trying to get them fixed, replaced or money back...

 

[Scootermsp]

Good advice

If your looking for a portable unit I will suggest the Lincoln Ranger 8 or 9, the 8 is a more basic welder generator and the 9 is more flexible for different welding processes(mig,stick,tig) AC tig really not recomended, the high freq. box is a must and is very expensive and they don't perform that well compared to a design specific tig. But it sounds like you are more interested in a stick unit. I'm not sure of you rcapabilities as a welder but I think a guy should be proficient in stick welding before mig welding, not that mig is harder but you gain a lot of necessary skills from stick welding that gives a broader understanding of mig welding, plus it's cheaper to learn on, less consumables (gas, wire + machine cost)
I think a 200-250 amp machine is a nice setup gives you lots of flexibility. I'm not familiar with the SA200 but Lincoln makes nice equipment. I had a Ranger9 Lincoln that was a great machine, I also had a LN25 wirefeeder with it that welded like a 3 phase unit, I just didn't use it enough to keep it. I think they can be picked up at a reasonable rate now.

I've got a Miller Syncrowave 200 TIG and love it. The best part is the ability to change the lead to a stick holder. If he wants to weld outside he will need to do it stick so the sheilding gas doesn't blow away. For beginners stick is the way to go. MIG will look like snot bubbles. I learned to weld Oxy-Acetylene before TIG. The guy who taught me could TIG 2 pieces of Aluminum foil together without burning through them. I wish I could do that. Check the specs but 6013 might be easier to work with (it's good for 60K PSI)

 

[KD57]

If you are not experienced in welding, why not have the end plate and hyd. mount plate prepared and welded by someone who knows what they are doing, then the rest of the welds you can do yourself.
The above mentioned plates really need to be solid, and that's not just slapping the plate on end of the beam and running a bead around it.

 

[tatra805]

2 cents already mentioned before

I am home "welding" since i was 6, dont have the pretention to guarantee any of my welds. Never had any schooling as such and going from the OT first post i would strongly recommend to postpone the project for a year and get some practice first

or..

find someone who can weld your splitters critical parts together while you are there. Take your welding hood and watch how he is welding. Maybe you'll have to pay him for his labour but that money should be worth it.

You will accelerate your learning a lot.

If you want to buy a welder i would advise you to find a small pro shop with the old guy behind the counter and have a long talk with him.
Most of the time you will find they appreciate a motivated novice much more than a regular shopper that has no clue.

I made a couple of good deals by going for second hand PRO machinery. The welding shop knows which customers are due to replace their equipment and it might actually help them getting a deal when they know they can take over the old equipment and have a customer for it.

give and take, win-win for both

Stay away from all these cheap welders. IF you are serious about it you will in short time destroy or in best case outgrow them and face a next investment. Add the amount to get a decent toy immediately. (resale value will also be better in case you find out it is not your type of game)

I do agree with the stick versus MIG argumentation in this situation.
MIG can be used and should be as good as stick but a home user will never be able to tell if his MIG welds actually are.

Destructive re-engineering is a nice thing but breaking things at splitter pressures is not. If you do it, do it right the first time.



You might want to post your question at eg the welding web dot com site.

 

[timberwolf]

For beginners stick is the way to go. MIG will look like snot bubbles.

Agree on everything else, but just from personal experience I found making nice looking MIG welds to be an easy learning curve compared to stick or TIG. Trouble though was making good looking MIG welds strong. Sure might be easier to do it with 6013 and that could be plenty strong, but if skills are such that 7018 is hard to run then welding with 6013 might be a bit sketchy too, a good sign a little more hood time is needed first.

what ever the welder, what ever the method likely the two most important factors are going to be:

Proper design, use good structural design to take load off welds and maximize the strength of critical welds.

Proper fit up so welds have full penetration and fusion to base metals.

Do a bunch of practice on scraps first, will pay off in the end when working with good material.

 

[r0858]

Welding Opinions

WelI I am a beginner, ther reason Id like to weld my own is id rather not pay someone 40-50 dollars an hour for something I can do myself. Building two heavy duty splitters, I was out of 1800 dollars in welding,, and that was paying someone on the side.. at that rate I really could have purchased a nice welder and did the work myself.. im not slow, ive done mechanical work for a living in the past..if i have to ill take a welding class.. it still beats paying someone.. im just unsure of what machine to buy and how much current I need.. absolutely I will be doing stick welding to start, and branching off from there[





QUOTE=Scootermsp;1392157]I've got a Miller Syncrowave 200 TIG and love it. The best part is the ability to change the lead to a stick holder. If he wants to weld outside he will need to do it stick so the sheilding gas doesn't blow away. For beginners stick is the way to go. MIG will look like snot bubbles. I learned to weld Oxy-Acetylene before TIG. The guy who taught me could TIG 2 pieces of Aluminum foil together without burning through them. I wish I could do that. Check the specs but 6013 might be easier to work with (it's good for 60K PSI)[/QUOTE]

 

[KD57]

Agree on everything else, but just from personal experience I found making nice looking MIG welds to be an easy learning curve compared to stick or TIG. Trouble though was making good looking MIG welds strong. Sure might be easier to do it with 6013 and that could be plenty strong, but if skills are such that 7018 is hard to run then welding with 6013 might be a bit sketchy too, a good sign a little more hood time is needed first.

what ever the welder, what ever the method likely the two most important factors are going to be:

Proper design, use good structural design to take load off welds and maximize the strength of critical welds.

Proper fit up so welds have full penetration and fusion to base metals.

Do a bunch of practice on scraps first, will pay off in the end when working with good material.

Good point. Don't try to learn to weld w/ a 7018. Start off learning w/ a tack rod, such as 6011, or even a 7014, which is good for flat welding. MIG is fast and easy, but harder for a beginner to know if he has the proper penetration. Learn stick first, then MIG will come naturally. My MIG setup is a 400 amp Miller, running .045 wire, and it gets the job done on the big stuff, for everything else I run an old Dial-Arc 250 amp, and also have a small MIG for gauge metal. Stay away from the cheap crackerboxes, unless you are only welding up the deck on your mower. Serious welding requires a serious machine. Invest in a good welder, and it will last for years.

 

[gink595]

Check the specs but 6013 might be easier to work with (it's good for 60K PSI)

6013 has no buisness being used in a splitter or any other type of real strutural need, it's a sheetmetal rod, low penetration. Leaves nice welds for apperance. I would either go with 6010/6011 or 7018 and try to rotate so you are always welding flat and leave position welding only if you have to.


For reference:

Use 6010 for DC, 6011 for AC or DC. 6013 can also be used for DC or AC but it has less penetration than 6010 and delivers a better appearing weld. Use 6013 on lighter sheet metal and use 7018 low-hydrogen rods, (low-hy), for almost any use. Use 7024 for higher depositions in flat or horizontal positions.

6010 welding rods penetrate deeply but have high spatter. They are good for all positions, all types of steel, and almost any conditions and use DC current. (For better penetration on thicker steel over 3/8," bevel the edges and create a gap of about 1/8" wide; use 6010 for tack up and a root pass and weld the remaining passes and the "cap pass" with 7018.) 6010 welding rods need to be stored in a dry location, at room temperature, and in a sealed container.
6011 welding rods have all the characteristics of 6010, are used in all positions with AC or DC current, and work well on all types of regular or mild steel.
6013 has all the characteristics of 6010 but can be used with AC or DC current; it has less penetration and delivers a better-looking weld. Use 6013 on light sheet metal up to 3/16."

Use 7018 low-hy, low penetration, on all positions, with AC or DC current. Use the highest amp setting as practical. Use a straightforward "drag" progression with a "short arc." The low moisture make-up of this welding rod reduces chemical reactions in the weld itself and makes for the highest quality x-ray perfect welds. (Note - this electrode must be kept dry. If it's exposed to humid air or gets damp it must be dried in a rod oven before use. See Welding Rods Storage chart.)

Use 7024 high deposition welding rods for flat and horizontal positions. It's "easy" to use because its thick flux automatically maintains the correct arc length, which allows you to "drag" the rod.

 

[John D]

gink,I was thinking the same thing, 6013 isnt going to penetrate,but sure looks great!

I find e6011 the best all around rod for mild steel welding where high strenth is not critical.For the hitches,splitters,and heavy duty stuff,its 7018 all the way.It isnt as easy to weld with,esp for beginners,and it requires more prep,and a better welder,but the penetration and strength are there.

 

[tatra805]

Dont want to go into an argue about the 6013 rod. It was intended as a sheet metal rod and works as such BUT also more than that.
Yes the 7018 has better properties.

6013 is my general purpose rod and for a beginner might help to get the handling much faster. 7018 can be a pain and needs much better skills and preparation but makes stronger welds.

For structural welding i do use both in combination for multi pass welds. Lot of discussion to be made about it and i think this is not the right place for it but i would not send a novice in the woods with a 7018 as first rod. Slack inclusion can be a bad as a weak MIG weld... etc

Regarding penetration, make sure your welder has the juice in it and you will penetrate equally with both rods, just using different settings for each.
I noticed that it makes a big difference in appreciation of these rods between a 220/380 based weldor (eg europe) and a 110/220 (eg US) based weldor.

 

[timberwolf]

6013 could be made to work, agree it's not the right rod for the job though. Just grind the bevels a bit more and mabe run 5 passes instead of 3. Would be nice for filling up the support webs on the blade ect.

Even 60,000 psi rod may well top the strength of the mild steel base metal anyways. So as long as the weld was done to provide full penetration, complete fusion and no inclusions the weld will be plenty strong no matter the rod selected. You may need a bigger fillet on a T joint to get the same strength, more grinding, chipping and passes but strength wise can't see why it could not be done with 6013 for example.

Now done right with 7018 and having the slag peal up and off like a snake skin after running a bead, yah thats the way to do it.

 

[Moss Man]

I have a Lincoln Ranger 8, it has never let me down. It has 8000 watts also, I use it for a generator when the power goes out.

 

[tatra805]

Timberwolf,

snakes, ...exactly!

My point being that i rather have a novice make a good 6013 weld than a bad 7018. not talking optics here. The flux behaviour of the 6013 makes it almost impossible to have inclusions (fast freeze) while with the 7018 itself is prone to have inclusions.

I'd rather stand behind a good 60000psi welded splitter than a bad 70000psi welded one.

Now just to tinker about, commercial units are tested? Saw a lot of welds cracking on a lot of equipment lately...
I know a lot of technical schools making parts for commercially sold machinery as practice lessons. How good are these welds?

 

[KD57]

Timberwolf,

Now just to tinker about, commercial units are tested? Saw a lot of welds cracking on a lot of equipment lately...
I know a lot of technical schools making parts for commercially sold machinery as practice lessons. How good are these welds?

Probably because most are MIG welded? And a bad MIG weld can look like a good one? Isn't most all equipment MIG welded these days? Stick has pretty much gone to field work only.

 

[gink595]

6013 or 6011?

I'd use 6010/6011 before I'd use 6013, 6011 is a farmer rod you can weld any kind of crap with it, rust, paint hyd. oil you name it. It has a high penetrtaion lots of splatter and the puddle freezes quickly, very good for position welding. Welds aren't very pleasing to the eye takes some practice to get very uniform welds.

Sure you could bevel and stack welds(It's fun with mig) but why waste the time and material if you can with something else. 7018 isn't that bad to weld with, it's a no-no with vert. down welds so you have to weld up, a little harder and takes practice, weave bead.


Here is my splitter with mig and beveled and muti-pass welds.

Here is a splice in the beam with a Complete Joint penetration weld, bevel one side fill it with weld and back gouge the back side out and fill with weld. The joint is then a sound weld.

 

[Metals406]

6013 has no buisness being used in a splitter or any other type of real strutural need, it's a sheetmetal rod, low penetration. Leaves nice welds for apperance. I would either go with 6010/6011 or 7018 and try to rotate so you are always welding flat and leave position welding only if you have to.


For reference:

Use 6010 for DC, 6011 for AC or DC. 6013 can also be used for DC or AC but it has less penetration than 6010 and delivers a better appearing weld. Use 6013 on lighter sheet metal and use 7018 low-hydrogen rods, (low-hy), for almost any use. Use 7024 for higher depositions in flat or horizontal positions.

6010 welding rods penetrate deeply but have high spatter. They are good for all positions, all types of steel, and almost any conditions and use DC current. (For better penetration on thicker steel over 3/8," bevel the edges and create a gap of about 1/8" wide; use 6010 for tack up and a root pass and weld the remaining passes and the "cap pass" with 7018.) 6010 welding rods need to be stored in a dry location, at room temperature, and in a sealed container.
6011 welding rods have all the characteristics of 6010, are used in all positions with AC or DC current, and work well on all types of regular or mild steel.
6013 has all the characteristics of 6010 but can be used with AC or DC current; it has less penetration and delivers a better-looking weld. Use 6013 on light sheet metal up to 3/16."

Use 7018 low-hy, low penetration, on all positions, with AC or DC current. Use the highest amp setting as practical. Use a straightforward "drag" progression with a "short arc." The low moisture make-up of this welding rod reduces chemical reactions in the weld itself and makes for the highest quality x-ray perfect welds. (Note - this electrode must be kept dry. If it's exposed to humid air or gets damp it must be dried in a rod oven before use. See Welding Rods Storage chart.)

Use 7024 high deposition welding rods for flat and horizontal positions. It's "easy" to use because its thick flux automatically maintains the correct arc length, which allows you to "drag" the rod.

Yup, if you go stick... Do a good 6011 root pass, and cover with 7018. 6011 looks like Fido's ass for bead appearance, but it's a good deep pen. rod.

I've done some really strong structural single pass, and multi-pass welds with my little Lincoln 140 amp machine. I use flux-core wire, and weld vertical-uphill to capitalize on the heat. Flux core wire has stick, fast-freeze characteristics.

When a welder is rated, it's for single pass. It's a general rule that 1 amp does .001" in thickness... Keeping in mind that's flat. If you do a PJP, or DB on your stock... you can make a really strong weld with a 140 amp machine. The trick on making a strong structural weld with a little machine--on thick material is: Joint preparation, vert-uphill, and a good pre-heat. Pre-heating is a welders best 'cheat' in welding.

 

[Metals406]

Gink, I'd have to look again, but I think a guy can get away with 20° or 25° downhill with 7018... And have it be a passable weld. Obviously for thinner stock... Staying ahead of the puddle so it doesn't run-out.

Also, I think we've all seen the 'farmer Johnny' welds that are 60+ years old, on a farm implement. The welds look like a chicken took a big dump on the steel--yet it's held for all those years?

Also, look under your truck at the DOT welds that 'pass'... Scary looking things! A lot of factors go into a strong weld, and most of it isn't something you can check after the fact visually.

I did some structural welds on a job, that were fixies. The 'Union' welder couldn't do a "Chinese Vert" to save his life. It was my job to go burn out his welds, and make a pretty cap. Would his ugly welds have been strong enough? Probably would have been fine... But the contractor needed to pass a 'visual' inspection.

 

[KD57]

You can get away w/ a 20 degree downhill on a 7018, but not much more, it's too hard to stay ahead of the puddle, and doesn't have much strength. Uphill is good tho. Downhill really isn't good for anything but maybe to put a nice cap on an otherwise cobby looking uphill. Works OK on thin stuff. That's why the 6011 is a good junk rod, you can really control the puddle, since it freezes so fast. And will weld anything, thats why it's the ultimate "farmers rod" lol. Welding flat, the 7024 or 7014 is a nice rod.