Rftreeman
Addicted to ArboristSite
and I bet he wasn't even holding his mouth right either...
What is wrong with this cut?
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Treewound
ArboristSite Member
The cut looks OK to me, however a THIN coating of tree wound dressing should have been applied immediately after the pruning was done. Tree Wound Dressings have been PROVEN to help control the spread of harmful pathogens, such as the pathogens that spread Oak Wilt Disease and several other diseases. Tree Wound Dressings have also been proven to reduce dieback, which in turn will lead to better closure. All this being said, the benefits are greatly reduced the longer the wound is exposed.
ch woodchuck
ArboristSite Operative
The initial question ''Whats wrong with this cut''May or may not have been answered.Seems there's more there than meets the eye.Look closely at pic 006.Notice the separation of bark/phloem from the cambium?No idea what happened there...Appears the separation may be all the way back to the main stem. The major flow seems to be coming from the main stem flowing down the trunk,and a smaller flow running between the separation and not from the face of the cut.Anyone else see what I see?
cheers
cheers
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Please show me some supporting info on tree wound dressing proving its effectiveness, I may be misguided but as I understood it they have proven that dressing the wound is of no benefit at all and may even be harmful to the tree.
Sponsor or not I dont think you should be using help requests to push your products.
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I call BS.
KenJax Tree
Terraphobic
Good call:msp_thumbup:
ch woodchuck
ArboristSite Operative
http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/3000/pdf/HYG_3311_09.pdf
Second paragraph..callus formation.Gotta blow it up abit.Even with cheaters I can't see it..
Second paragraph..callus formation.Gotta blow it up abit.Even with cheaters I can't see it..
Treewound
ArboristSite Member
There is a tremendous amount of data demonstrating that Tree Wound Dressings are effective at controlling the spread of plant pathogens, especially Oak Wilt Disease. Probably the best known on Oak Wilt is:
"Studies on Pruning Cuts and Wound Dressings for Oak Wilt Control" written by Kim Camill, David Appel, and Todd Watson, published in Arboriculture & Urban Forestry, 2007,33(2): 132-139
The USDA Forest Service publication "How To Identify, Prevent and Control Oak Wilt" NA-FR-01-11
"How to Prune Trees" USDA forest service publication:HOW to Prune Trees
These are just a few, I would be glad to direct you to several other studies with the same recomendations. Additionally, nearly all extension services in areas prone to Oak Wilt highly recomend the application of Tree Wound Dressings at certain times of the year, some areas even amke it mandatory.
Tree Wound dressings have also been shown to be effective at controlling the spread of other pathogens that cause tree diseases such as Dutch Elm, Silver Leaf, several "stone fruit" diseases and diseases of apple trees, as well as pitch canker in cherry trees.
Our own test is available on our web site: waltereclark.com, which demonstrates the reduction in dieback.
I would also suggest to those who base their conclusions on Shigo's well known studies (Wound dressings on red maple and American elm:effectiveness after five years and wound dressings:results of studies over 13 years, both published in the Journal of Arboriculture) why he did not report on all of the subject trees? In one study, they wounded 375 trees, but only studied 275 or 74%, in the other, they wounded 110 but only studied 75 or 60%.
If we had picked which trees to study in our test, we could have made the results look dramatically different!
Kind of makes me wonder if they were looking to prove an preconceived notion.
"Studies on Pruning Cuts and Wound Dressings for Oak Wilt Control" written by Kim Camill, David Appel, and Todd Watson, published in Arboriculture & Urban Forestry, 2007,33(2): 132-139
The USDA Forest Service publication "How To Identify, Prevent and Control Oak Wilt" NA-FR-01-11
"How to Prune Trees" USDA forest service publication:HOW to Prune Trees
These are just a few, I would be glad to direct you to several other studies with the same recomendations. Additionally, nearly all extension services in areas prone to Oak Wilt highly recomend the application of Tree Wound Dressings at certain times of the year, some areas even amke it mandatory.
Tree Wound dressings have also been shown to be effective at controlling the spread of other pathogens that cause tree diseases such as Dutch Elm, Silver Leaf, several "stone fruit" diseases and diseases of apple trees, as well as pitch canker in cherry trees.
Our own test is available on our web site: waltereclark.com, which demonstrates the reduction in dieback.
I would also suggest to those who base their conclusions on Shigo's well known studies (Wound dressings on red maple and American elm:effectiveness after five years and wound dressings:results of studies over 13 years, both published in the Journal of Arboriculture) why he did not report on all of the subject trees? In one study, they wounded 375 trees, but only studied 275 or 74%, in the other, they wounded 110 but only studied 75 or 60%.
If we had picked which trees to study in our test, we could have made the results look dramatically different!
Kind of makes me wonder if they were looking to prove an preconceived notion.
here is a quote from one of the articles you mentioned
In most other instances, wound dressings are unnecessary, and may even be detrimental. Wound dressings will not stop decay or cure infectious diseases. They may actually interfere with the protective benefits of tree gums and resins, and prevent wound surfaces from closing as quickly as they might under natural conditions.
clearly what happened with that cut was, the climber was not wearing the proper ppe and the tree felt disrespected :msp_rolleyes:
Treewound
ArboristSite Member
Dear Tree Pig,
your quote is from page 12 of the How to Prune publication and your quote is accurate, HOWEVER, let's include the paragraph imediately before the paragraph that you cite and the ENTIRE paragraph that you cite!
" When oaks or elms are wounded during a critical time of the year (usually spring for oaks or throughout the growing season for elms)--either from storms, other unforeseen mechanical wounds, or from necessary branch removals -- SOME TYPE OF WOUND DRESSING SHOULD BE APPLIED TO THE WOUND. DO THIS IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE WOUND IS CREATED."
Followed by the portion of the paragraph that you quoted, You ALSO NEGLECTED TO INCLUDE THE LAST SENTENCE - " The only benefit of wound dressings is to prevent introduction of pathogens in the specific cases of Dutch elm disease and Oak wilt"
Clearly I disagree with the limitation of need to Dutch elm and Oak wilt. As I pointed out, there are many tree diseases that are spread in the same fashion as Oak wilt and Dutch elm, that is by airborn spread of pathogens and by insects feeding on the sap. It is therefore a fairly safe assumtion that Tree Wound Dressings would be benificial at controling the spread of these diseases as well. I can also provide you with reports with the same conclusion.
your quote is from page 12 of the How to Prune publication and your quote is accurate, HOWEVER, let's include the paragraph imediately before the paragraph that you cite and the ENTIRE paragraph that you cite!
" When oaks or elms are wounded during a critical time of the year (usually spring for oaks or throughout the growing season for elms)--either from storms, other unforeseen mechanical wounds, or from necessary branch removals -- SOME TYPE OF WOUND DRESSING SHOULD BE APPLIED TO THE WOUND. DO THIS IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE WOUND IS CREATED."
Followed by the portion of the paragraph that you quoted, You ALSO NEGLECTED TO INCLUDE THE LAST SENTENCE - " The only benefit of wound dressings is to prevent introduction of pathogens in the specific cases of Dutch elm disease and Oak wilt"
Clearly I disagree with the limitation of need to Dutch elm and Oak wilt. As I pointed out, there are many tree diseases that are spread in the same fashion as Oak wilt and Dutch elm, that is by airborn spread of pathogens and by insects feeding on the sap. It is therefore a fairly safe assumtion that Tree Wound Dressings would be benificial at controling the spread of these diseases as well. I can also provide you with reports with the same conclusion.
stihl023/5
Addicted to ArboristSite
Too close:msp_scared:
ch woodchuck
ArboristSite Operative
opcorn:I didnt neglect it, I just left it out because your whole argument is weak on face value when they are essentially saying ITS ONLY BENEFICIAL IN A CASE OF DUTCH ELM OR OAK WILT.
I can show you several other papers written from colleges that say its doesnt work and may even cause more damage but did not want to flame you too much since you are a sponsor. I was hoping you would be able to produce some legitimate evidence that its good, but obviously you cant.
ONE ARTICLE
SHIGOS THOUGHTS ON DRESSING
MORE SHIGO
TEXAS STUDY used by ISA (does support use ONLY in the area susceptible to oak wilt... BUT say numbers supporting it are minimal)
SHIGO said it was a bunch of crap years ago and there has been NOTHING to date that says anything different...
oh and
Of course you disagree, like every other snake oil salesman your trying to line your pockets.
also I still think its lame of you to push your stuff in the help forums but maybe its just me.
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Treewound
ArboristSite Member
Your accusations about being a "snake oil salesman" are totaly unfounded. There are several manufactures of Tree Wound Dressings on the market today and You will see that allthough our companies product was used and named in several of the studies I did not mention it by name for that very reason.
You can hide your head in the sand and ignor the vast and growing evidence that Tree Wound Dressings, when used properly, are very effective at controlling the spread of many tree diseases.
You point out a couple of portions from two of Shigo's studies, but READ the entire study. Shigo's 1983 study (Wound Dressings: Results of Studies over 13 years) actually showed, by a small amount, that the wounds treated with our tree wound dressing had a LOWER occurance of decay causing fungi than untreated wounds and smaller area of dieback than untreated wounds. In his 1977 study (Wound Dressings on Red Maple and American Elm: Effectiveness after five years) it shows in Table 1 that the wounds that were treated with asphalt Tree Wound Dressing had a vertical extension of discolored and decayed wood than the untreated (control) wounds. Shigo states that "there is no significant difference" between treated and un-treated wounds. You may or may no know that the term "significant" is different in scientific terms than you or I may use in daily terms. In the ISA report (Studies on Pruning Cuts and Wound Dressings for Oak Wilt Control) the study shows that of the tree that were treated with (here we go!) Treekote Tree Wound Dressing of the 10 trees treated with Treekote and then deliberately exposed to Oak Wilt only one became infected and there is a footnote that the wound dressing on that tree had not dried and "slipped off" during during spore incoculation. That is 90% effectiveness overall and if you take out the compromised tree that is 100% vs. 30% for untreated yet this is later described as Nota significan difference. In my humble opionion, if I had a choice of a treatment that in at least 90% of the cases and in reality 100% of the cases would prevent an illness vs. doing nothing and having a 30% chance of preventing my illness I would consider it to be a "significant" difference!
A couple of other notes about Shigo's studies that have been mentioned. Shigo was studying (in these studies) primarily decay , not disease control. He also, without explanation only repoted on 75% of the subject trees in one study and 60% of the trees in the other - Why ? Did the results of these trees not support his hypothesis? I do not know the reason,but I do find it puzzleing.
If you would be interested, I would be more than happy to send you many other reports that demonstrate the value of applying Tree Wound Dressing to help control the spread of many tree diseases and reduceing dieback.
You can hide your head in the sand and ignor the vast and growing evidence that Tree Wound Dressings, when used properly, are very effective at controlling the spread of many tree diseases.
You point out a couple of portions from two of Shigo's studies, but READ the entire study. Shigo's 1983 study (Wound Dressings: Results of Studies over 13 years) actually showed, by a small amount, that the wounds treated with our tree wound dressing had a LOWER occurance of decay causing fungi than untreated wounds and smaller area of dieback than untreated wounds. In his 1977 study (Wound Dressings on Red Maple and American Elm: Effectiveness after five years) it shows in Table 1 that the wounds that were treated with asphalt Tree Wound Dressing had a vertical extension of discolored and decayed wood than the untreated (control) wounds. Shigo states that "there is no significant difference" between treated and un-treated wounds. You may or may no know that the term "significant" is different in scientific terms than you or I may use in daily terms. In the ISA report (Studies on Pruning Cuts and Wound Dressings for Oak Wilt Control) the study shows that of the tree that were treated with (here we go!) Treekote Tree Wound Dressing of the 10 trees treated with Treekote and then deliberately exposed to Oak Wilt only one became infected and there is a footnote that the wound dressing on that tree had not dried and "slipped off" during during spore incoculation. That is 90% effectiveness overall and if you take out the compromised tree that is 100% vs. 30% for untreated yet this is later described as Nota significan difference. In my humble opionion, if I had a choice of a treatment that in at least 90% of the cases and in reality 100% of the cases would prevent an illness vs. doing nothing and having a 30% chance of preventing my illness I would consider it to be a "significant" difference!
A couple of other notes about Shigo's studies that have been mentioned. Shigo was studying (in these studies) primarily decay , not disease control. He also, without explanation only repoted on 75% of the subject trees in one study and 60% of the trees in the other - Why ? Did the results of these trees not support his hypothesis? I do not know the reason,but I do find it puzzleing.
If you would be interested, I would be more than happy to send you many other reports that demonstrate the value of applying Tree Wound Dressing to help control the spread of many tree diseases and reduceing dieback.
Treewound
ArboristSite Member
If you are interested in looking at additional studies and guides that support the use of Tree Wound Dressings we have supplied a list of some of the publications in response to an inquiry in the Homeowner Helper Forum, (October Glory Maple Question).
If any interested parties would like a list or even printed copies you can email us at :[email protected]
I would also like to point out that we have never claimed that our products "promote healing" or "cure diseases", they do not. Additionally, we have in our own studies created the "pockets" eluded to in some reports that serve as "courts for infection" and do not dispute this. However, when applied correctly, in a thin coating, with care to get coverage on the edges, this will not happen. By the time the tree begins to form the callus the thin layer will simply flake off. In some cases the thin coating has weathered almost completely away, which is fine. The protection from potential contamination is not beneficial after the tree has compartmentalized the wounded or pruned area from within. This is also the case with the reduction in dieback.
If any interested parties would like a list or even printed copies you can email us at :[email protected]
I would also like to point out that we have never claimed that our products "promote healing" or "cure diseases", they do not. Additionally, we have in our own studies created the "pockets" eluded to in some reports that serve as "courts for infection" and do not dispute this. However, when applied correctly, in a thin coating, with care to get coverage on the edges, this will not happen. By the time the tree begins to form the callus the thin layer will simply flake off. In some cases the thin coating has weathered almost completely away, which is fine. The protection from potential contamination is not beneficial after the tree has compartmentalized the wounded or pruned area from within. This is also the case with the reduction in dieback.
Blah Blah Blah... I am not sticking my head in the sand I am asking for proof... you claim you have it so instead of talking about it SHOW IT. By the way from what I know (though minimal) Shigo's clear and only opinion on the issue was that best prevention was through proper cuts. Some evidence is out there that it MAY help inhibit Oak Wilt but general consensus (by those promoting its use, other then YOU) is still that its only a suggested treatment in areas were OAK WILT is a concern...
Either show us otherwise or stop flapping your gums
Either show us otherwise or stop flapping your gums
Treewound
ArboristSite Member
Look at the prior post ! I have shown you and all others where they can find supporting documentation! I will even send you printed copies if you wish!
Tree Wound Dressings have been Proven beyond question to be effective at controlling the spread of Oak Wilt and many other diseases.
If you would like us to print and send you copies you can post your address or send it to us at :[email protected], then we can continue this discussion!
Tree Wound Dressings have been Proven beyond question to be effective at controlling the spread of Oak Wilt and many other diseases.
If you would like us to print and send you copies you can post your address or send it to us at :[email protected], then we can continue this discussion!
Maybe I missed something but the only thing you have shown is minimal evidence that has been out there for a few years that MAYBE it helps on Oak Wilt
Treewound
ArboristSite Member
Please take a look at some of these studies. A couple of them show 100% protection against the spread of oak wilt!
You are correct that some recomendations limit there recomendation to certain times of the year. The point that we take is that Tree Wound Dressing do reduce dieback, do control the spread of many tree diseases, and IF USED properly, the problem that have been associated with their use will not occur.
Again, If you would like us to send you copies we would be glad to do this.
You are correct that some recomendations limit there recomendation to certain times of the year. The point that we take is that Tree Wound Dressing do reduce dieback, do control the spread of many tree diseases, and IF USED properly, the problem that have been associated with their use will not occur.
Again, If you would like us to send you copies we would be glad to do this.
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