what s wrong with this 280?

[dadouthat]

As I mentioned in an earlier thread, a pretty new (15 or so tanks) MS 280 is giving me and the dealer fits.

First, thanks to Lakeside for earlier comments and suggestions, but the saw just isn't working right despite the dealer's efforts to fix it. It exhibits the same problems now that it did initially. Idles fine before a cut. Pull the trigger and it accelerates quickly and smoothly and with normal time to stop chain rotation upon deccelaration. Basically, normal behavior before cut. Make a couple of cuts and everything changes. After that, when I pull the trigger to start the next cut (not yet into the wood), it either dies or drops in rpm. In subsequent cut, chain rotation continues for way too long as the saw drops to idle.

Shop has been very nice (and so have I but patience is running out). First trip, checked crankcase for leak and adjusted carb, second visit (I am 60 miles from shop), replaced carb and pressure checked crankcase again, also tank venting. Third visit, rechecked pressure check of crankcase and vacuum tested fuel system. Decided that it might be electronic ignition module. Replaced that. Did a couple of test cuts, said that it seems to be okay but let them know after using it a while. Net result, it still ain't running right and has exactly the same behavior now as it did before the 3 trips to the shop.

All the obvious and not very obvious possibilities have been checked.

Besides magic, what else could be going on? At what point does the dealer give up and send the damned thing back to Stihl? At what point should the customer's mood change?

 

[ropensaddle]

Mine already changed years ago and is why I use husky!
Thats a tough one I would ask for a different saw, or for
them to repair and cut long enough for symptoms to show,
shop should want to get you happy. Thats the only way
they will know they have repaired it is to use a tank and
see what happens.

 

[ropensaddle]

p.s. sometimes electronic parts are bad even new
and a module out of a runner would make that known
I am assuming plug has been changed and have seen them
bad out of box as well! So all I am saying is they could
have changed the right part with a defective and that
happens and is a troubleshooting nightmare!!!!I noticed
Alaska is elevation between you and the shop extremely
different?Kill switch can cause weird symptoms!

 

[Timberhauler]

As I mentioned in an earlier thread, a pretty new (15 or so tanks) MS 280 is giving me and the dealer fits.

First, thanks to Lakeside for earlier comments and suggestions, but the saw just isn't working right despite the dealer's efforts to fix it. It exhibits the same problems now that it did initially. Idles fine before a cut. Pull the trigger and it accelerates quickly and smoothly and with normal time to stop chain rotation upon deccelaration. Basically, normal behavior before cut. Make a couple of cuts and everything changes. After that, when I pull the trigger to start the next cut (not yet into the wood), it either dies or drops in rpm. In subsequent cut, chain rotation continues for way too long as the saw drops to idle.

Shop has been very nice (and so have I but patience is running out). First trip, checked crankcase for leak and adjusted carb, second visit (I am 60 miles from shop), replaced carb and pressure checked crankcase again, also tank venting. Third visit, rechecked pressure check of crankcase and vacuum tested fuel system. Decided that it might be electronic ignition module. Replaced that. Did a couple of test cuts, said that it seems to be okay but let them know after using it a while. Net result, it still ain't running right and has exactly the same behavior now as it did before the 3 trips to the shop.

All the obvious and not very obvious possibilities have been checked.

Besides magic, what else could be going on? At what point does the dealer give up and send the damned thing back to Stihl? At what point should the customer's mood change?

If I would have had to take the saw back more than once,then someone would be shelling out a new one....I once had a 046,one of the first ones that hit my dealer's floor when they came out that gave us an absolute fit..It turned out to be a hairline crack somewhere in the ignition..This was after four different trips back to the dealer,and a whole bunch of downtime.I then decided that enough was enough,I bought a 066 not much later and it was running far too lean...I took it back twice,it would run fine until it got warmed up,then it wouldn't idle,and ran off the chart....The third time I had to take it back,I made them give me a new saw...A new saw should be just that,I know there are bugs here and there,but anymore than one return trip in my opinion is rediculous for a new saw.

 

[Lakeside53]

The dealer obviously isn't testing it in the wood like you are. Do they even have a test log? If they don't how can they even duplicate your problem?

Take it back.. give them one last chance.. and tell them (nicely) you want another saw if it's not fixed. Have them ship it to Stihl if requried.. Stihl Corp will take it back... and you shouldn't even have to get noisy...

 

[dadouthat]

Thanks to all for advice. The dealer does have a test log, he does do a cut or two, says that he's not sure the problem is solved, and gives the damned thing back to me for yet another trial run at home. He does recognize that it is a repeatable pattern and it does the same thing for him that is does for him. He commented after visit #2 and the new carb, following his test cuts and the resulting drop in rpm when squeezing the trigger that "it shouldn't do that". But it was near the end of the day and he has been nice enough to work on it while I waited so I took it home and hoped for a miracle.

After the first visit, he told me that the rings probably just weren't seated yet and it would work fine after a few more tanks had gone thru it. This seemed unlikely then and still does (he did concede that happens maybe once every 20 saws) and more tanks aren't helping! He is a nice guy but at this point I would prefer a grump that could fix it. I'll give it another trip to town and another try and then ask for a new saw.

Just a couple of quick replies to suggestions: (1) very small difference in elevation, and (2) could be two successive bad components (have had that happen with HP printer cartridges) and that is a diagnostic nightmare. At this point I am almost as interested in knowing the cause of the problem as I am in getting a saw that runs well!

 

[ropensaddle]

Thanks to all for advice. The dealer does have a test log, he does do a cut or two, says that he's not sure the problem is solved, and gives the damned thing back to me for yet another trial run at home. He does recognize that it is a repeatable pattern and it does the same thing for him that is does for him. He commented after visit #2 and the new carb, following his test cuts and the resulting drop in rpm when squeezing the trigger that "it shouldn't do that". But it was near the end of the day and he has been nice enough to work on it while I waited so I took it home and hoped for a miracle.

After the first visit, he told me that the rings probably just weren't seated yet and it would work fine after a few more tanks had gone thru it. This seemed unlikely then and still does (he did concede that happens maybe once every 20 saws) and more tanks aren't helping! He is a nice guy but at this point I would prefer a grump that could fix it. I'll give it another trip to town and another try and then ask for a new saw.

Just a couple of quick replies to suggestions: (1) very small difference in elevation, and (2) could be two successive bad components (have had that happen with HP printer cartridges) and that is a diagnostic nightmare. At this point I am almost as interested in knowing the cause of the problem as I am in getting a saw that runs well!

I wish you the best and the shop guy nice is better than a grump that can't fix it lol. At least if he is nice he will go to bat with stihl for you and get you a new saw!!!!!

 

[Peacock]

My 280 is pretty new and exhibited the exact same behavior. I opened up the L screw a bit and readjusted idle. It still does it, but just barely. I will wait a few more tanks and try again then.

 

[Fish]

Not to imply anything, but you know for certain that he replaced these parts? You know he properly tested the saw for leaks?
Did he make sure the tank was venting properly?
It sounds like a fuel related issue.

 

[dadouthat]

Peacock,

How many tanks do you have thru your saw? I'm pretty sure that it has actually gotten worse as I get more tanks thru it. I suppose that I could get used to the drop in rpm before accelerating if it didn't die completely so often when I hit the throttle.

Has your dealer had any suggestions about the source of the problem?

 

[Wood Hick]

This is a long shot, but happened to me once. Are you sure of your fuel mix? I mean, did you buy a different oil, get gas at a new place? Are you using Stihl oil? Did you use a fuel container that could have been contaminated? I would suggest new fuel container, gas from a place you trust, and premium mix oil. Try your "new" fuel in another saw. See if it bogs down a different one. I agree with others it sounds like a fuel problem, and there is some poor gas out there for sale.

 

[Peacock]

I've run 15-25 tanks through it so far. Had it about a month. The problem showed up at about 3-4 tanks and got worse. I adjusted the carb myself on a Sunday and called the dealer the next day to confirm. We planned on rechecking it if things got worse.

Mine would only 'bog' after sustained cutting when initially hitting the throttle. Then it would take 3-5 seconds to return to idle and stop turning the chain. I had wondered about crank seals myself because when the saw is idling normally and you push down on the bar against wood if will idle up or down very slightly. It still does that, but so does my 441.

 

[SawTroll]

....
Did he make sure the tank was venting properly?
It sounds like a fuel related issue.

It sure does - reminds me of a saw running out of fuel - but I think he said that the tank vent was checked.

Anyway, a simple do-it-yourself test is to open and close the fuel cap when problem shows its ugly head, and see if it helps for a short while.
If it doesn't, it is most likely not the tank went.

You could also run the saw with just a little fuel, and an open cap, and see if it acts differently.

 

[Jacob J.]

The module on the 270/280 has been problematic. We've had three outright failures on brand new units so far and three outright failures on the MS-361 also.

 

[Lakeside53]

3 bad ignitions on a 361? wow.. we've sold hundred of these saws to both prors and homeowners, and never has an ignition related failure.. in fact, almost no failures of any type. Did have a cylinder base cracked, but Stihl replaced that even though it was way outside of warranty.

On the 280 - I assume we're all talking about the standard 280, not the 280IEM?

 

[Jacob J.]

One was a regular 280 and two were the 280C. The 361s were also one regular and two 361Cs. The 280Cs and 361Cs were all owned by a local forest firefighting/land management "association", that has initial attack and management responsibilities on state and private lands here. The workers seem to take it upon themselves to do such things as: defeat/destroy chain brake systems (especially the "triple activated" system), lean carbs out so the saw "screams", and replace the standard starter handle with the big "snowmobile grip". J.D. authorized the replacement of the first two ignitions on each saw but said they're on their own after that.

 

[Lakeside53]

Yep.. We have some guys like that... I really like the guys that don't even CUT off the brake handle -It's much more manly to smash it off with your foot.

Has a customer that bought a 200T - "you going to take that brake handle off or do I have to break it off myself?". I guess he did... but never saw him again.

 

[Jacob J.]

Has a customer that bought a 200T - "you going to take that brake handle off or do I have to break it off myself?". I guess he did... but never saw him again.

lol, it takes all kinds.

 

[dadouthat]

Peacock,

Mine does exactly the same thing that yours does.

Fish:

I have no reason whatever to doubt that the dealer did what he said he did. I am not a many year customer there but have used the shop for a while and he has a good reputation in an area where bad ones travel quickly.

I do trust the dealer and was at the counter or on the cell phone outside the shop for the second and third visits when he and his helper were back working on the saw. I do appreciate how rapid service has been. I watched him do the test cuts but was about 30' away and not looking over his shoulder. He keeps the saw revving at full speed and goes quickly between cuts (I'm usually not in much of a hurry so I often drop it to idle before starting the next cut) so it is probably less obvious to him. The next time I'll do test cuts while he watches.

I too think that it must be a fuel supply problem but beyond that I don't have a clue.

Woodhick and Saw Troll, Thanks. I followed Saw Trolls suggestion and vented the tank by loosening the gas cap. It is the C model so in short order the cap was just hanging there while I did the test cuts. Still does the same thing.

Wood Hick: Gas from the same jug used in new MS 180. Stihl mix and bar oil. Dealer always uses his own fuel in saw.

Have no problem whatever with 180. Hit the trigger even a little and get smooth acceleration. Hit the trigger a little with the 280 and it either bogs briefly or dies. Given a rest, it behaves ok until a couple of cuts are made. If I really hammer the throttle it does behave better. Maybe I should just get used to doing that even though I have never had to do it with any other saw.

My 16" by 8' test log is pretty much a collection of hotplates at this point! Good thing that I have lots more.

As for the electronic module being the problem, does failure ever lead to this kind of behavior? I assumed that the module either worked or died completely.

 

[Fish]

I do not know how things up there where you are, but right now in this business, everyone is busy as hell, and you are likely to be told anything on the phone, that is why I asked.
I work in this industry, and know how it goes.
I just wonder about your saw, just me...........

I am sure where you are, the next dealer is a "furr piece" down the road.
You might try calling the dist., just for giggles.