What would you ask for?

[Blakesmaster]

I know it's a tough question because everyone has a different area with different economics and the like but I'm not sure what to do.

Most of you know my story but for those who don't I'm a recent start up, 1 year in with two partners, little overhead and a ####load of drive to build our biz into a real local competitor. My old boss fired me at the beginning of last season when I explained to him I was starting my own gig. W/in 2 mos he started calling me back for big jobs to climb, run the bucket, drag brush, whatever. If I was free, I said, sure, found cash, right? W/in the past season he has seen me evolve from a ground guy with a strong back to a decent climber who's up on the latest gear and ideas ( thanks to this site ). I've also doubled the amount of equipment our business has in the past year and we've prepped ourselves to become a serious competitor in the following season. Anyway, thas the history.

The boss comes to me last week and asks me to come back full time-ish. He's asking for a commitment of 4-5 days a week because he's looking to expand. Half the crew toward lot clearing and I'd be running the residential crew. This means bucket work ( which I'm still a noob at ) climbing and being in charge of whoever he hires for ground work.

I'm a bit weary that my business will not grow enough in this economy to support myself ( both of my other partners still hold their day jobs ) and something to lean on money-wise seems a good idea so I'm thinking of taking him up on his offer. Except he hasn't made one yet. I currently work for him at 13 an hour to give you an idea with bonuses depending how much climbing I do in a given week. I want to settle on a flat rate that is reasonable for both him and me.

It seems a step back but I am worried about the availability of current work. Most of the work we got this summer was from price shoppers but as most of you know I almost cut our balls off on a few occasions trying to get a job. With this, I'd be on the books, my partner, who leaves his city job at 2:30 on the dot everyday ( who's also ISA certified ) can bid jobs, set the schedule and I'd chip in my time on my 2-3 days off per week, so our business shouldn't take much, if any, hit.

Anywho, that was a ramble and a half so if you managed to make it through my little diatribe, tell me what you think I should ask for. This is on the books pay, no benny's, but I'll have my WC if somthin should occur.

Thanks guys,

Chris.

 

[ozzy42]

13 pr hr seems like a lil on the cheap side for climbing work.Try offering 15-18 ,just an idea,don't know the economy where you are or your exact situation.
Some other things to consider;Will you be using any of your gear,or saws etc?
Is your old boss ok with you doing tree work on your own.
Can,or will he trust that your work was obtained thru your own resources?
I ran into this situation a few times while grinding stumps for a friend/competitor ,and by chance 6months later the same customer called from my ad to have some tree work done.I bid the job,got it,told my friend about it ,and offered to split it with him,or let him have it all together.He said he wasn't worried about it,and he believed me 100%.
Trust me this will come up eventually.
Make sure you guys are on the same page before it does.
If you guys have a good trust with each other ,I say you go for it as long as everything is out in the open.

 

[Blakesmaster]

13 pr hr seems like a lil on the cheap side for climbing work.Try offering 15-18 ,just an idea,don't know the economy where you are or your exact situation.
Some other things to consider;Will you be using any of your gear,or saws etc?
Is your old boss ok with you doing tree work on your own.
Can,or will he trust that your work was obtained thru your own resources?
I ran into this situation a few times while grinding stumps for a friend/competitor ,and by chance 6months later the same customer called from my ad to have some tree work done.I bid the job,got it,told my friend about it ,and offered to split it with him,or let him have it all together.He said he wasn't worried about it,and he believed me 100%.
Trust me this will come up eventually.
Make sure you guys are on the same page before it does.
If you guys have a good trust with each other ,I say you go for it as long as everything is out in the open.

13 is on the cheap side for climbing. Like I said he puts some extra bling in my pocket for days that I climb. The 13 figure was just an overall minimum I expect to be paid for my time. He's cool with me doing my own thing ( now ) and there's no issue with obtained work. I don't snake work and he knows it. As far as gear goes, he keeps his stuff maintained so all that I bring is my climbing gear. I can trust his saws to run properly.

The main thing is if I make a full-time-ish commitment to him there is a chance ( though a quite slim one ) that my business will suffer which means I GOTSTA get more change.

 

[Philbert]

Why not work for your old boss as a subcontractor through your new firm? That way you will build your business while still getting the work from him.

Remember that as a subcontractor, he will not be paying the 'company side' of withholding taxes, work comp, unemployment, etc., so he can pay you more. But as an employee of YOUR company, you have to pay those expenses, so you need to charge him more than as an employee of HIS company to make the same money in the end. Plus, as a business, you are entitled to make a profit above wages and direct expenses/overhead.

Just work out a clear, written understanding about who pays which expenses (fuel, supplies, mileage, etc.), which equipment is used, competition for customers, whose insurance covers what, etc.

His advantage is that he gets an experienced worker without hiring you full time. Maybe he can also use your partners when needed. If your business takes off, maybe you can even hire your old boss as needed under a similar agreement.

Just a few thoughts.

Philbert

 

[thejdman04]

If your boss can pay you 15 or 18 an hour and can keep you working steady it might be worth going back if he treats you with respect.

 

[Wolfking42084]

I agree with philbert 100%. Work as a sub. I use to hate doing this, but then found out that I could charge the contractors almost what they bid it for, and they never get out of their truck. Like he said, get all the payments and everything 100% clear and in writing. That way, people passing by, see you and your business and may get more jobs because of that. $13 an hour is low, for here anyway. Most climbers here are taking home $150-$200 a day, depending on who you work for. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Blakesmaster]

Why not work for your old boss as a subcontractor through your new firm? That way you will build your business while still getting the work from him.

Remember that as a subcontractor, he will not be paying the 'company side' of withholding taxes, work comp, unemployment, etc., so he can pay you more. But as an employee of YOUR company, you have to pay those expenses, so you need to charge him more than as an employee of HIS company to make the same money in the end. Plus, as a business, you are entitled to make a profit above wages and direct expenses/overhead.

Just work out a clear, written understanding about who pays which expenses (fuel, supplies, mileage, etc.), which equipment is used, competition for customers, whose insurance covers what, etc.

His advantage is that he gets an experienced worker without hiring you full time. Maybe he can also use your partners when needed. If your business takes off, maybe you can even hire your old boss as needed under a similar agreement.

Just a few thoughts.

Philbert

Yeah, that sounds good and all, but... We all know word of mouth is king in this biz. If "XXXX's Tree Service" sells a job and three trucks with "Choice Tree Care" painted all over 'em show up to do the work a certain amount of credibility is lost. Neither of our company's want to deal with that situation.

 

[Blakesmaster]

I agree with philbert 100%. Work as a sub. I use to hate doing this, but then found out that I could charge the contractors almost what they bid it for, and they never get out of their truck. Like he said, get all the payments and everything 100% clear and in writing. That way, people passing by, see you and your business and may get more jobs because of that. $13 an hour is low, for here anyway. Most climbers here are taking home $150-$200 a day, depending on who you work for. Just my 2 cents.

That's the thing. I wouldn't be climbing non-stop. I'd also be doing bucket work. With the economy the way it is my boss has received a lot of phone calls from guys who are experienced and looking for full time work. They'd rather work with me 'cause they know me and what I'm capable of. It's a paycheck. If they hire someone else and the economy folds and my phone don't ring, I'm done. If I go back, I'll make money, be able to bury my biz profits, and have a safety net should no work com my way. I just don't know how much to ask for.

 

[Philbert]

Yeah, that sounds good and all, but... We all know word of mouth is king in this biz. If "XXXX's Tree Service" sells a job and three trucks with "Choice Tree Care" painted all over 'em show up to do the work a certain amount of credibility is lost. Neither of our company's want to deal with that situation.

That's all part of your written agreement. If you are using his truck, it has his name on the side.

If you are using your truck you need to get paid more for use of your equipment.

If he wants YOUR truck and HIS name, have him pay for magnetic signs with his name on it.

It's really pretty common in many industries: construction, cable TV installers, etc. Most of the FedEx home delivery guys are independent contractors.

Philbert

 

[epicklein22]

If you are gonna work two tree jobs, get ready to work you butt off. I have a friend that does exactly what you are talking about. He was on his own for 10 years, working by himself. Insurance and a DUI made it better for him to come back to the tree company we both work for. He busts his butt everyday, always doing his side work after the normal day. I don't know how he doesn't get burned out mentally or physically, but he keeps trucking and does amazing work in every area.

As for money, you need to be making at least 18 if you are gonna be running a crew, climbing and being responsible about getting the job done right and on time. Your boss obviously likes your work and leadership and likes you enough to let you do your side deals. A lot of owners would show you the door if you do work on the side. What this all means is that you are making him money and doing good work, so he is willing to give you a little more to stay or will he show you the door again? If he says no to a reasonable pay raise, then you will either have to swallow your pride and take it or go put all your energy and hope into your own business. I would step back and really look at your prospective future financially, physically and mentally and goals. While I understand that you want financial stability and that is smart thinking, but you only live once. Remember, the good lord gave you eyes in the front of your head and not your back, so you can see where you are going, not where you have been.

 

[mckeetree]

I know it's a tough question because everyone has a different area with different economics and the like but I'm not sure what to do.

Most of you know my story but for those who don't I'm a recent start up, 1 year in with two partners, little overhead and a ####load of drive to build our biz into a real local competitor. My old boss fired me at the beginning of last season when I explained to him I was starting my own gig. W/in 2 mos he started calling me back for big jobs to climb, run the bucket, drag brush, whatever. If I was free, I said, sure, found cash, right? W/in the past season he has seen me evolve from a ground guy with a strong back to a decent climber who's up on the latest gear and ideas ( thanks to this site ). I've also doubled the amount of equipment our business has in the past year and we've prepped ourselves to become a serious competitor in the following season. Anyway, thas the history.

The boss comes to me last week and asks me to come back full time-ish. He's asking for a commitment of 4-5 days a week because he's looking to expand. Half the crew toward lot clearing and I'd be running the residential crew. This means bucket work ( which I'm still a noob at ) climbing and being in charge of whoever he hires for ground work.

I'm a bit weary that my business will not grow enough in this economy to support myself ( both of my other partners still hold their day jobs ) and something to lean on money-wise seems a good idea so I'm thinking of taking him up on his offer. Except he hasn't made one yet. I currently work for him at 13 an hour to give you an idea with bonuses depending how much climbing I do in a given week. I want to settle on a flat rate that is reasonable for both him and me.

It seems a step back but I am worried about the availability of current work. Most of the work we got this summer was from price shoppers but as most of you know I almost cut our balls off on a few occasions trying to get a job. With this, I'd be on the books, my partner, who leaves his city job at 2:30 on the dot everyday ( who's also ISA certified ) can bid jobs, set the schedule and I'd chip in my time on my 2-3 days off per week, so our business shouldn't take much, if any, hit.

Anywho, that was a ramble and a half so if you managed to make it through my little diatribe, tell me what you think I should ask for. This is on the books pay, no benny's, but I'll have my WC if somthin should occur.

Thanks guys,

Chris.

I thought you never should have left in the first place.

 

[Blakesmaster]

I thought you never should have left in the first place.

Aww, mickee, you missed me. My heart....warmed.

 

[Toddppm]

How's the patrnership going? Two other partners, ugh. Chances of that staying together if you all start really making money might be kind of slim.

 

[Blakesmaster]

How's the patrnership going? Two other partners, ugh. Chances of that staying together if you all start really making money might be kind of slim.

We make do, and did make some decent coin this year. It's good to have honest, hard working guys on your side.

 

[oldirty]

200 a day minimum to run his res side. minimum.

 

[Slvrmple72]

Yeah, that sounds good and all, but... We all know word of mouth is king in this biz. If "XXXX's Tree Service" sells a job and three trucks with "Choice Tree Care" painted all over 'em show up to do the work a certain amount of credibility is lost. Neither of our company's want to deal with that situation.

Magnetic signs....duh!

 

[Thillmaine]

Blakesmaster

Need at least 200 a day..I agree... I'm not far from you and I am making signifigantly more then 10 bucks an hour over your wage...

 

[tree MDS]

Blakes, you see this is the problem with the whole partership thing - not enough to go around. If it was just you and a couple of ground guys (I know its nice to have good help, but at what cost?) there would be more money for you, consequently you would be able to weather the slow times so the economy would not be as big an issue.

As far as 13 an hour goes, lol. Ground guys start at 15 around here (at least from my expierience, there are some cheap bastards too though). Let me ask you this: at this point can you handle ANY tree that comes along in the projected time frame (within reason) given the task?? Even if yer not quite there yet you still gotta get at least 16 an hour! As far as the sub thing goes, 250 is a nice number imho.

 

[mckeetree]

Aww, mickee, you missed me. My heart....warmed.

You know what I meant.

 

[Blakesmaster]

Magnetic signs....duh!

Yeah, but I'm not equipped the way he is and couldn't possibly get as much done in a day with 1 tenth of his equipment.