What year did saw performance and quality really start to go downhill ?

[bigv]

A couple months ago I posted on here asking for advice on whether or not to buy a new felling saw and what to get.

I had always used a PM700, a C-51 Homelite, and a Stihl 044 for felling. All three were actually really strong performers.

I made the statement I did not want to get a woods ported saw, that I didn't think I would get the enjoyment out of one I would put into the porting.

When I went out and tried new saws I was amazed how how weak some of the big inch stuff was. It felt like I really didn't try something as strong as the PM700 or Stihl 044 until I tried an 372XP or a Dolmar 7900.
I honestly understand now why so many guys get a new saw and get Chainsaw Chimp or Wicked or Moody to put a port on it.

When I tried the 2011+ EPA compliant saws, my jaw was dropping from how hot the saws ran, how many of the saws with excessive cats seemed both "dead" and dangerous at the same time from the heat of the muffler(fire risk was a concern for me), and how much of the displacement seemed to be wasted. I have an 029 Super that is Ported, and it felt stronger than a MS 361 or MS390, and the MS441 I tried didn't seem to be the beast it should have been with respect the ported 029. Yes the MS440 and MS441 were far stronger than a porter 029S, but I genuinely expected them to be monstrous beasts that left a ported 55cc saw in the dust. The MS440 and 441 were both stronger, but not as much as I had expected.


I ran a Makita 6421 today that was new and I was amazed that it seemed weaker than a 6401 with some age on it.

The other thing I've noticed is that a ton of saws that are 10 years old or less get junked on a regular basis either on Ebay or Craigslist or at the local shyster dealer, and even the most honest local dealer is getting quite a few saws that not that old that just being junked.

I was helping a customer go through his Stihl 390 earlier in the week and we found plastic where we weren't expecting it. I remember seeing a homeowner grade Husqvarna about the time I started looking for a felling saw and it had several pieces you could find Made in China on, plastic wise.

I'm wondering, when you did you start to notice a major performance difference in stock new saws ?

Do you think that saw quality has decreased to at least some noticeable degree ? When did you start noticing it ?

 

[MCW]

I suppose it depends on what you call performance. If you use torque as a measuring stick then the older saws of same capacity will generally thump the new saws. Also certain countries are more choked up from EPA rules than others. For example Australian delivered Husqvarna 3120's are a completely different animal to the US delivered saws. Our rev limiter is set around 2,200rpm higher and they are tuned completely different. Every stock US saw I have ever run has been tuned too lean to satisfy emissions, hence the heat. Richen them up and they're fine.
There is no doubt an all alloy old McCulloch will outlast a newer saw but then again when was the last time you threw one around all day felling trees?

I know this has been said before but if the old saws were superior to newer models every logger on earth would be using the old versions. There are certain aspects that are better but as far as the whole package goes the newer saws win hands down.

Also don't expect much quality to ooze from homeowner grade saws, they are a completely different kettle of fish compared to a pro saw. Actually you may even want to check Stihl's recent pro range. "Made In China" isn't an uncommon emblem on some models.

Even though you've mentioned one Makita I see you are comparing a lot of Stihl saws. Stihl have definitely gone backwards in performance with some of their newer models. Some of this has been fixed by the addition of M-Tronic but the backwards step with models such as the 200T>201T hasn't gone unnoticed by pro users that use these saws daily for paid work.

 

[bigv]

I like my old saws. I like to keep them in running condition. I like to go out and work with them sometimes.

But, other than that, I would not give you two cents for them in daily use like I've been getting out of my Dolmar and Husqvarna stuff.

My question could have been better stated and less vague.

 

[MCW]

Gotcha I do think saws are getting built to a price nowadays. Too much Chinese!

 

[wyk]

EPA phase 1 guidelines in 1996 ish is about when the death toll started:

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/nonroad/equip-ld/hhsfrm/r00004.pdf

It's basically what brought about the death of the American Homelites and McCullochs, et al. Then phase 2 came in...etc etc.

 

[ash man]

Agree with the above posts epa is most of the problem with performance. Heck I bought a Dolmar 7900 last year from a dealer that bought up a bunch (500) before the new epa 7910 came out and I paid more for it.

 

[MCW]

Agree with the above posts epa is most of the problem with performance. Heck I bought a Dolmar 7900 last year from a dealer that bought up a bunch (500) before the new epa 7910 came out and I paid more for it.

He bought over a quarter million dollars worth of 7900's?

 

[ash man]

Yep its Curtis Collectibles out of Coneticut. I think he still has some left. I heard about the guy on AS in the fall of 2012 and got one then. He claimed to me that he bought out Dolmars remaining inventory of 7900 @500 saws before the model change.

 

[MCW]

Yep its Curtis Collectibles out of Coneticut. I think he still has some left. I heard about the guy on AS in the fall of 2012 and got one then. He claimed to me that he bought out Dolmars remaining inventory of 7900 @500 saws before the model change.

Yeah I've bought a few Dolmars off of Brad before. Got the first one off him 6 years ago. Not sure he bought that many though. That's some serious outlay for a business that not many people have heard of.

 

[bigv]

Holy crap. Mystery solved. I had paid a dealer in East TN to get a Dolmar 7900 for me. He kept telling me it was coming out of CT. I guess maybe Mr. Curtis has gotten rid of his stock now.

 

[mdavlee]

He told me he had 100 372 xpws bought up before they were phased out. He still had one or two a month or so back.

 

[MCW]

He told me he had 100 372 xpws bought up before they were phased out. He still had one or two a month or so back.

He did seem to have a few sought after models well after everybody else had sold out so maybe he did buy 500 x 7900's? His price on 7900's was MILES below anybody else at the time I bought mine from him - over USD$100 cheaper. Got a 5100-S from him too.

 

[mdavlee]

He did seem to have a few sought after models well after everybody else had sold out so maybe he did by 500 x 7900's? His price on 7900's was MILES below anybody else at the time I bought mine from him - over USD$100 cheaper. Got a 5100-S from him too.

He still has 2171s there also and maybe a few regular 372s. He must have bought some serious stock to still have this stuff now.

 

[cory@owen]

better hurry up and delete this thread before the rest AS finds out what he's got. j/k.... but I'm serious!

 

[MCW]

He's still got 7900 and non x-torq 372's listed...

 

[sunfish]

Most of the pro saws have not "gone down in performance or quality"...

 

[ethar]

When you start adding mtronic autotune to a saw that cuts down the performance. Alot of people would argue about this. Yes it's nice on a saw but it's there to restrict the saw also for emissions reasons.

 

[sunfish]

When you start adding mtronic autotune to a saw that cuts down the performance. Yes it's nice on a saw but it's there to restrict the saw also for emissions reasons.

Nope, sorry you are wrong. It does not cut down the performance. I'm still not completely sold on auto carbs, but have run enough of them to see the gains!

 

[Chris-PA]

When you start adding mtronic autotune to a saw that cuts down the performance. Alot of people would argue about this. Yes it's nice on a saw but it's there to restrict the saw also for emissions reasons.

Because a correct fuel mixture reduces performance? Take your time....

 

[blsnelling]

When the EPA and OSHA stuck their fingers in the pie. Many Stihl mufflers are so choked up I don't know how they run as well as they do.