What year did saw performance and quality really start to go downhill ?

[AKDoug]

I agree sunfish, of the models I have cut with... the new 441C-m's will cut right with an 044, a 261 trounces an 026 and a 362 has no real issue keep

When you start adding mtronic autotune to a saw that cuts down the performance. Alot of people would argue about this. Yes it's nice on a saw but it's there to restrict the saw also for emissions reasons.

Have you run an MS441C-M? That thing runs as clean and hard as any stock 70cc saw.

 

[Chris-PA]

When the EPA and OSHA stuck their fingers in the pie. Many Stihl mufflers are so choked up I don't know how they run as well as they do.

But the solutions to meeting the emissions limits are not all the same, nor are the fixed over time. Not all saws have cat mufflers, and not all saws have strato engines - and not all the attempted solutions work equally well.

You see more different designs of saws than I ever will - do you find that the performance of strato engines saws with feedback carbs is reduced? Do they all have choked up mufflers?

 

[blsnelling]

The most recent trends have been back towards more power. That's greatly in thanks to technology like MTronic and Auto Tune. Those are much better solutions than a choked up muffler and/or a cat muffler.

 

[sunfish]

I agree sunfish, of the models I have cut with... the new 441C-m's will cut right with an 044, a 261 trounces an 026 and a 362 has no real issue keep

Same on the orange side, the 562xp smokes the 357xp! But not as large a gap with the 346xp/550xp.

 

[Steve NW WI]

When you start adding mtronic autotune to a saw that cuts down the performance. Alot of people would argue about this. Yes it's nice on a saw but it's there to restrict the saw also for emissions reasons.

This coming from a guy with a McCinderblock as a profile pic. I'm amused now.

 

[Icepack]

When the EPA and OSHA stuck their fingers in the pie. Many Stihl mufflers are so choked up I don't know how they run as well as they do.

Do you think our cars and trucks would run as well as they do on our crappy gas if it weren't for computers? Saws are in need of the same thing or a good MM and port job.

 

[Hinerman]

The most recent trends have been back towards more power. That's greatly in thanks to technology like MTronic and Auto Tune. Those are much better solutions than a choked up muffler and/or a cat muffler.

Brad is right. The EPA has forced the manufacturers to build more efficient and environmentally friendly machines. Of course perfomance suffered at first but now we are starting to see the fruits of all the R&D over the past 10-15 years; which is equating to more efficient and now more powerful chainsaws. It will only get better from here on out as technology evolves...probably going to see fuel injected saws in the future. But it won't matter if a MS262i (fuel injected 50cc) from the future can pull a 36" bar in OZ hard wood, we will still want to port it to get more out of it.

I compare it to the auto industry. It is amazing what kind of power some of the smaller engines get while still meeting emission standards and getting great fuel economy.

 

[SS Sniper]

Yep its Curtis Collectibles out of Coneticut. I think he still has some left. I heard about the guy on AS in the fall of 2012 and got one then. He claimed to me that he bought out Dolmars remaining inventory of 7900 @500 saws before the model change.

Shhhh... that's giving it away man! I got my 372xp from him.

 

[SS Sniper]

He told me he had 100 372 xpws bought up before they were phased out. He still had one or two a month or so back.

As far as I know a month ago he had 2 XPW's left. He's keepin' one of them for himself or something.

 

[SS Sniper]

As far as I know a month ago he had 2 XPW's left. He's keepin' one of them for himself or something.

None left now. Just asked him.

 

[Locust Cutter]

My 261 stock was way too lean and ran VERY hot... After a drill bit was applied to the muffler (Not the prettiest MM method, but effective) and the limiters trimmed and adjusted accordingly, the saw ran MUCH better AND cooler. I would never go back. Other than that it is a great saw.

Same on the orange side, the 562xp smokes the 357xp! But not as large a gap with the 346xp/550xp.

Is the 550 really that much better/faster than the 346??? Hmmm...

 

[windthrown]

I have an 029 Super that is Ported, and it felt stronger than a MS 361 or MS390, and the MS441 I tried didn't seem to be the beast it should have been with respect the ported 029.

A ported 029 Super? You are serious here, that you have a "ported" clamshell 290 engine? That beats a 361?

I have owned and modified many 1127 saws, as well as many 361 saws. I never got a larger 310 with a larger carb and higher revs than a 290/029 Super to cut as fast as a stock 361, with every possible 'porting' trick I know. Basically the max RPM keeps the power down. On the 029/029 Super/290, the MAX revs are even lower. I just do not see that happening. My 441 runs all over my 361s and 036, and kept pace with my dual ported 044. Not quite the power of the 460, but far far smoother.

I do not consider the Stihl 1127 homeowner saws as the better pre-EPA 'peak' saws. There are far better saws, like the 360, 361, 026, 044/440, the early 372xp and 372xpw, etc. However, the new smogged 261 will spank an 026. The 441 beats the 440. Also my 211 far outperforms the 210 that it replaces. The 311 is a real disappointment compared to the 310 though. Same with the 362 compared to the 036/360 or the 361. I have yet to try the M-tronic saws, but they have variable timing and carb mix control, so I do not see how they can be worse than earlier flat-line advanced ignitions and fixed mix (albeit adjustable with the orange screwdriver) carbs. In fact they are reported to be far better than the earlier models that they replace.

The other item with newer saws is that they have far less vibration as earlier saws did. The 361 is smooth, as is the 441. The 461 will not rattle your teeth fillings out like the 460 will. I have upgraded a lot of my saws over recent years because of reduced vibration, and that is the main reason I still have my 310 of the lot. It is far smoother than the other 1127 saws. The 211 is a lot smoother than any of the 1123 saws as well.

A ported 029 you say? Shaking head... how exactly is it 'ported'?

 

[Terry Syd]

I took a quick read through that EPA report and other than discussions about various technologies, the big thing that stood out for me was the need to reduce hydrocarbon emissions. There was even an admission that it would affect the power.

I've mentioned before about drilling out the twin jet Zama's. Because of the separation of the different functions, the twin jet carbs could be set up to run on fumes (the factories liked that, it would still run, but on fumes). Likewise, you can mod them to pump some serious hydrocarbons. You guys won't believe the 'grunt' you can get out of one of these modded carbs until you try it. It becomes a different saw.

 

[rwoods]

Some of you are old enough to remember the height of the muscle cars in the late sixties and early seventies and wham, by 1973 almost all the cars are dogs. Now technology has improved, power is up, fuel economy is up, comfort is up, handling is up, and brakes are up to the performance - a long time coming but its here. I can't fix a new car, but heck, my stock 2013 pickup puts out over 400 ponies and I have averaged over 14 mpg for almost a year now. I believe saws are following a similar curve. I love my old MACs which I can repair but I would also love to have a new 70+ cc saw even though I wouldn't be able to fix it if some electronic component quits. Ron

 

[Locust Cutter]

FWIW, I remember running an 029 that Stumpy built at Dan's GTG... That thing ran like a scalded dog! It was nasty. I think at one point (IIRC) it was even pulling a 28" bar just to prove that it could... it was flat nasty with a 16' and more than impressive with a 20" bar. Now, would it have held up to much use outside of cookie cutting? I don't know and kind of doubt it. But, I think that it would have give a 361 a run for it's money at least up into 16" wood...

 

[Chris-PA]

Carbs that run puking rich everywhere but under max load (event to the point of routine misfire), and scavenging losses that see a large percentage of the fuel input go right out the exhaust - I dunno, but it is isn't that impressive to me. Of course you can make a lot of power if you throw enough fuel into it (and right on through it too), but it is just kind of a gross waste.

And a cat has no place on an engine with a fuel system so pathetically inaccurate. So it can catalyze a small portion of the fuel that gets spit out into the muffler - it doesn't make any more power from that fuel, it is still all waste and turned into heat right on the saw. In my opinion anyone who sells you a chainsaw with a cat is ripping you off. Husky did that to my wife when she bought me the 142 and it still pisses me off.

To make good power without so much scavenging loses and with a fuel system that can actually hold a fixed fuel/air mixture, that I find much more interesting. Making power with proper engine design rather than just pouring fuel into it.

 

[zogger]

Carbs that run puking rich everywhere but under max load (event to the point of routine misfire), and scavenging losses that see a large percentage of the fuel input go right out the exhaust - I dunno, but it is isn't that impressive to me. Of course you can make a lot of power if you throw enough fuel into it (and right on through it too), but it is just kind of a gross waste.

And a cat has no place on an engine with a fuel system so pathetically inaccurate. So it can catalyze a small portion of the fuel that gets spit out into the muffler - it doesn't make any more power from that fuel, it is still all waste and turned into heat right on the saw. In my opinion anyone who sells you a chainsaw with a cat is ripping you off. Husky did that to my wife when she bought me the 142 and it still pisses me off.

To make good power without so much scavenging loses and with a fuel system that can actually hold a fixed fuel/air mixture, that I find much more interesting. Making power with proper engine design rather than just pouring fuel into it.

Maybe some sort of small chamber before the mix hits the crankcase, some sort of emulsifier chamber.

 

[Chris-PA]

Maybe some sort of small chamber before the mix hits the crankcase, some sort of emulsifier chamber.

No need - strato engines have the scavenging losses much reduced, and a good carb was all that was needed for the fuel system. It was not required to go all the way to an electronic feedback carb (they could have made a carb that worked as well as the one on a POS B&S lawnmower any time), but they delayed so long that it makes sense now. So it's pretty much solved.

 

[Terry Syd]

From 1996 to around 2007 there were a lot of saws made that were of the old design, but tried to make the EPA guidelines by lean running carbs. A lot of those older saws are still out there - they can be made to run quite well if the carbs are modded to give a proper fuel mixture.

 

[griffonks]

Stumpy was known for building some mean clamshells. I never saw one of his saws or any photos of his work. I wonder what exactly he was doing to the engine?

Its really difficult to decrease squish in a clamshell, It would require machining both halves. It would be really expensive, probably more than the saw cost new....

I'd rather have a ported 360.