Windsor Speed Tip vs. Oregon PowerMatch

[Brmorgan]

I want to get my milling saws set up for 3/8 .050 LP for next summer, so I'm looking at getting a 32" Stihl mount .050 bar from Bailey's. I also plan on getting the Stihl --> Husky mount adapter so i can switch the 25" & 32" bars between my 660 and 395. Then I can use my 33" Husky .063 bars for dropping big trees and milling dirty logs etc. only, and use the .050 in clean wood for speed.

I may also grab an 18/20" for the 045/181SE to use for just slabbing narrower stuff. Anyway, the Oregon and Windsor 32" bars are both about $65 and I was wondering which was better. It's probably a Stihl-vs-Husky type of argument, but since they'll be used solely for milling I want them to last. So far, I'm leaning towards the Oregon, but I've never used Windsor bars before and have no reason not to.

On a similar note, any preferences between the Woodland Pro 30LR and Oregon 91VX? Of course the Oregon would need to be modified for ripping and is 4¢ more per DL.

Also, anyone know where to get a 9-pin 3/8 sprocket? I want to set my 090 up with 3/8 9P to get the chain speed up and the kerf width down. All that power is going to waste with .404.

 

[glennschumann]

Madsens has 9 and 10 pin sprockets, but they are over $20. (Custom built I think). You can see them in their catalog on page 96. Madsens1.com if that helps. I have not yet tried them, but I'd be interested in doing so for my 066.

 

[BlueRider]

A lot of people either are unaware or forget that chain pich is a factor in determinig chain speed. Going to a .375 cain with a 9 pin will do little more than recover the chain speed lost when switching from a .404 8 pin combation. I don't know what an 090 will pull so I would probably talk to the people at Madsons.

 

[Brmorgan]

A lot of people either are unaware or forget that chain pich is a factor in determinig chain speed. Going to a .375 cain with a 9 pin will do little more than recover the chain speed lost when switching from a .404 8 pin combation. I don't know what an 090 will pull so I would probably talk to the people at Madsons.

That's exactly the point. I'm tired of losing 1/2" of wood to saw kerf when I'm milling. I'd get a 10-pin if possible as I know the 090 will pull it no problem in <30" softwood.

Glenn, I don't know about a 9-pin on an 066 - I run 8-pin/25" on my 660 and I don't think it would take any more speed very well. Might get away with it bucking <20" firewood or something, but certainly not for milling.

 

[BlueRider]

That's exactly the point. I'm tired of losing 1/2" of wood to saw kerf when I'm milling. I'd get a 10-pin if possible as I know the 090 will pull it no problem in <30" softwood.

QUOTE]

I'm not sure I made my point very well. The way that the pitch of the chain affects chain speed has noting to do with kerf size but is rather a number in a mathmatical formula.

On an 090 running .404 and an 8 pin your max chain speed will be 3,501 ft/m and switching to .375 pitch and a 9 pin will get you a max chain speed of 3651 ft/m. To gain any reall speed you would need to move up to a 10 pin which would get you just north of 4,000 ft/m. I have no idea how much torque you will lose.

You can still gain a lot of speed with out chainging chain or sprockets just grind you rrakers down. I run the rakers on my 075 at .035 Mallof recomends going to .045 on an 090. when I refround my rakers it was the same difference as what you get between a sharp chain and a dull one.

Just for the heck of it I just made a cut with my 038 running .375 chain and one with my 075 running .404. Using dial callipers I measured the kerfs and they are both the same, .350" The .404 chain I have on the saw is not the same chain I mill with and I will check that next time I have it on the saw. but .350" is a far cry from 1/2"

 

[Brmorgan]

That's exactly the point. I'm tired of losing 1/2" of wood to saw kerf when I'm milling. I'd get a 10-pin if possible as I know the 090 will pull it no problem in <30" softwood.

QUOTE]

I'm not sure I made my point very well. The way that the pitch of the chain affects chain speed has noting to do with kerf size but is rather a number in a mathmatical formula.

On an 090 running .404 and an 8 pin your max chain speed will be 3,501 ft/m and switching to .375 pitch and a 9 pin will get you a max chain speed of 3651 ft/m. To gain any reall speed you would need to move up to a 10 pin which would get you just north of 4,000 ft/m. I have no idea how much torque you will lose.

You can still gain a lot of speed with out chainging chain or sprockets just grind you rrakers down. I run the rakers on my 075 at .035 Mallof recomends going to .045 on an 090. when I refround my rakers it was the same difference as what you get between a sharp chain and a dull one.

Just for the heck of it I just made a cut with my 038 running .375 chain and one with my 075 running .404. Using dial callipers I measured the kerfs and they are both the same, .350" The .404 chain I have on the saw is not the same chain I mill with and I will check that next time I have it on the saw. but .350" is a far cry from 1/2"

No, no, I understand what you're saying and it's a good point. I guess what it boils down to is that I :censored: HATE both .404 pitch and .063 gauge chains except for the dirtiest, most unforgiving jobs. I want all my milling equipment 3/8 so I don't have to carry around different sprockets, bars, and chains for different applications. Right now I have .404 .063 on a 33" bar on the 090, 3/8 .063 (33") or .058 (24/28") on the Husky 395, and 3/8 .050 LP (25") or .325 .050 9-pin (20") on the 660. So you can see how it can get a little hard to keep track of. I'd ultimately like to switch solely to 12mm Stihl-mount .050 bars w/ adapters for the Huskies so I can run the same bars on my 041/045/660/181/395.

FWIW I switched one of my Husky 33" bars to .325 and tried milling a ~28" Douglas Fir with a 9-pin sprocket. What a waste of time. No faster than the 33" 3/8 .063 on 7-pin, and bogged the engine down much easier resulting in a rougher cut.

As far as saw kerfs go, my original milling kerf wedges were all cut to fit my 395's kerf as that was my first milling saw. They are too thick to even begin to fit the kerf of the 660's LP chain, but are extremely sloppy if I try using them w/ the 090. So there is a fairly significant difference, in my case at least. Personally I'm not a big fan of pulling the rakers down because it permanently modifies the chain. For instance with my 395 / 33" I might run an 8-pin in <25" wood, but switch down to a 7 for bigger stuff.

 

[BIG JAKE]

I want to get my milling saws set up for 3/8 .050 LP for next summer, so I'm looking at getting a 32" Stihl mount .050 bar from Bailey's. I also plan on getting the Stihl --> Husky mount adapter so i can switch the 25" & 32" bars between my 660 and 395. Then I can use my 33" Husky .063 bars for dropping big trees and milling dirty logs etc. only, and use the .050 in clean wood for speed.

I may also grab an 18/20" for the 045/181SE to use for just slabbing narrower stuff. Anyway, the Oregon and Windsor 32" bars are both about $65 and I was wondering which was better. It's probably a Stihl-vs-Husky type of argument, but since they'll be used solely for milling I want them to last. So far, I'm leaning towards the Oregon, but I've never used Windsor bars before and have no reason not to.

On a similar note, any preferences between the Woodland Pro 30LR and Oregon 91VX? Of course the Oregon would need to be modified for ripping and is 4¢ more per DL.

Also, anyone know where to get a 9-pin 3/8 sprocket? I want to set my 090 up with 3/8 9P to get the chain speed up and the kerf width down. All that power is going to waste with .404.

Brad I'm curious as you and others have run alot of different setups than I have as far as chains go. If your looking for longevity why would you run .050 vs .063 for milling? Is not the drive link plate thickness that much thicker and thus stronger? If you look at it from a thickness percentage standpoint with .063 being 100% seems like the way to go. Granted, weakest link of sum of parts is the key and my guess is that the link pins connecting the links are the same diameter as are the side plates but I don't know. But increase in the drive plate thickness should equate to increase load bearing surface at the link pins and on the sprocket, right? Thus less wear/stretch for equivalent run time on those surfaces should be less on the .063 chain. Seems like .063 chains would have a longer life with less stretch(less episodes to tighten chain). I run only .063 on my 066 but mainly because the saw came with 2 36" bars in .063-one is .404(blocking/firewood cuttng) and other is 3/8. I also have a 28" bar in 3/8" .063. I mill with the 3/8's bars. I'm not claiming to be the expert here-curious on experience of other millers regarding this.

 

[rtrsam]

Brad I'm curious as you and others have run alot of different setups than I have as far as chains go. If your looking for longevity why would you run .050 vs .063 for milling? Is not the drive link plate thickness that much thicker and thus stronger? If you look at it from a thickness percentage standpoint with .063 being 100% seems like the way to go. Granted, weakest link of sum of parts is the key and my guess is that the link pins connecting the links are the same diameter as are the side plates but I don't know. But increase in the drive plate thickness should equate to increase load bearing surface at the link pins and on the sprocket, right? Thus less wear/stretch for equivalent run time on those surfaces should be less on the .063 chain. Seems like .063 chains would have a longer life with less stretch(less episodes to tighten chain). I run only .063 on my 066 but mainly because the saw came with 2 36" bars in .063-one is .404(blocking/firewood cuttng) and other is 3/8. I also have a 28" bar in 3/8" .063. I mill with the 3/8's bars. I'm not claiming to be the expert here-curious on experience of other millers regarding this.

I agree with what you’re saying about chain gauge (driver thickness). Most of the chains I’ve broken have been the result of a failed driver, right at the point where the rivet goes through. Years ago I was trying to get a 36” bar in .050; the dealer told me anything that size was going to be in .058 or .063; the idea being if you had enough power to run a bar that long you needed the additional driver strength.

Are you seriously thinking about putting Oregon 91 chain on a Stihl 090? A 3/8 mini pitch chain on the biggest saw made? Interesting concept, but I’d be concerned about breaking the chain with that much powerhead.

I 100% agree about hating to have a whole bunch of different chain pitches and gauges. I tried to standardize everything where I work; 3/8 .050 (for saws under 24” bar), .404 .063 (for all larger saws), and 3/8 mini (Oregon 91) for the small saws (Echo 280, Husky 335XP). Then I bought carving bars for my Shindaiwa 360 and had to get ¼ inch pitch (Oregon 25 chain), Had to run ½ pitch on my gear drive 090, Stihl invented their “micro pitch” stuff for their small saws (019, HT 75 pruner), I started getting saws set up from the factory with Oregon 75 chain (3/8 .063)… What a pain, that’s before you even get into different cutter set-ups.

SO I understand where you’re coming from in your frustrations, but there’s a reason for the bigger gauge sizes related to engine power. If I wanted more speed in a milling operation I’d probably just get a higher revving saw than an 090; what’s it tach out at, 8000? Pretty slow but gobs of torque. Seems like you want chain speed.

 

[Brmorgan]

No, certainly not LP chain on the 090. It will stay .404 for falling/bucking and 3/8 for milling most likely. I want the .050 on my 660, 395, and other larger saws just to facilitate bar interchangeability. Not necessarily LP, I don't think it would be reliable to run it on a 32" bar. I'll keep the LP for the shorter bars for slabbing cants and cutting up smaller, clean logs to save time. Jake, I'm not necessarily looking for longevity (though it is a factor) but I'm more concerned about speed at this point.

 

[BobL]

On an 090 running .404 and an 8 pin your max chain speed will be 3,501 ft/m and switching to .375 pitch and a 9 pin will get you a max chain speed of 3651 ft/m. To gain any reall speed you would need to move up to a 10 pin which would get you just north of 4,000 ft/m. I have no idea how much torque you will lose.

9 pin as compared to 8 pin has a 1/8 greater circumference and a thus a 1/8 greater radius therefore a 1/8 or 12.5% less torque.

Just for the heck of it I just made a cut with my 038 running .375 chain and one with my 075 running .404. Using dial callipers I measured the kerfs and they are both the same, .350" The .404 chain I have on the saw is not the same chain I mill with and I will check that next time I have it on the saw. but .350" is a far cry from 1/2"

Did these chains have the same top plate angles?

It's been some time since I did the same measurements - I think I got about 9 mm (0.36") with 404 and about 7 mm (0.28") with .375 - both were 10º top plate angles, in hardwood

 

[Brmorgan]

Did these chains have the same top plate angles?

It's been some time since I did the same measurements - I think I got about 9 mm (0.36") with 404 and about 7 mm (0.28") with .375 - both were 10º top plate angles, in hardwood

Those findings are more in the neighborhood of mine. I've never measured with calipers etc. though.