Wood volume observations

[laser]

The hardest thing I've found, as a noob wood burner, is trying to quantify what you have, so you can quantify what you burn, so you can figure out how much to horde/buy.

As the wife and I moved into a cabin in August, we didn't have an opportunity to set up our wood supply in the spring. The neighbors have been great, letting me borrow a chainsaw and an old MTD log splitter, and even donating enough logs to get me to approx. one cord to start off.

Since then, I've been scavenging Craigslist, and around the DC area, it's not as bad as some other places I've seen linked in this forum.

Most of what's available to me around here is about 40 miles away, and is in rounds, and some of it gets kinda punky, but it's amazing how much better it looks when you split it.

So, when trying to decide if I actually want to clean up somebody's mess of rounds in their yard, I try to justify how big the load is. I can only tote half a cord with my setup, I figure.

We all know that a *cord* is 128 cubic ft. Well, according to this link on here in the sticky http://mb-soft.com/juca/print/firewood.html 128 cu ft of wood only contains 85 cubic feet of actual wood, and that's if it's stacked tight, not hand thrown. I read somewhere, and please correct me or back me up, that if you hand throw it, it would take 180 cubic feet of space to equal that 128, which is really only 85 cubic feet to begin with. The reason I'm concerned with *real* cubic volume, is I'm loading rounds, so I calculate cylinder volume to figure out how much wood I have. I add 34% for air, to figure out what it will be stacked tight.

So the way I figure it, if I'm buying firewood, and they toss it in by hand or with a loader, if their truck or trailer holds 128 cubic feet, I'm really only getting 60 cubic feet instead of the expected 85 cubic feet if they arranged it nicely.

This makes it really difficult to justify buying wood, knowing I'm not really even getting a cord unless I go and load it myself, and make sure it's tight.

I'd like to hear your opinions, and I'd like to know if my numbers and logic are sound.

The other dynamic that comes into play is trailer capacity, and axle weights, since we always use the total cubic feet available in the trailer, instead of calculating for air, and removing it, and then figuring out the approx weight of the wood based on species. Maybe our trailers aren't as overloaded as we thought.

 

[gwiley]

Hard to answer regarding the cord vs. actual sf of wood figures - golly we can't even get folks to agree to mean a cord when they say "cord". The important thing for you is that the measurements are relatively accurate - meaning that if you meausre it roughly the same way each time then you will know what you burn and how much you need to put away for next season.

As a rule I put away "more than I expected to need" and then keep it flowing year round anyway.

Regarding overloading your truck/trailer...watch the springs. If you get a chance to load it with a well known weight (bags of concrete) you can get a good idea of what the suspension looks/feels like when it is loaded.

 

[Austin1]

I think your putting too much thought in this! Yep gotta figure how much you will use in a year I use about 4.5 to 5 cords that's including all the airspace for the house and probable 1.5 for the shop/garage. My fire wood trips are about 40 miles one way I can and have stuffed a full cord in a half ton truck mind you that was dry pine and a long box too. Just read some of the post's on here about unsplit and split wood I bring back all my wood on rounds unsplit and it grow's when home lol. I now use a trailer it's 5x7x3' high and fully in closed so I don't get road dust on my wood lol.If I am cutting green, like I have been the last few years the wight increases. I can only get a 1/2 cord in a half ton and I tend to load the trailer to about a 3/4 cord. My 3/4 ton truck has a camper on it year round so I do not feel like taking it off just to cut wood.I am thinking of getting a bigger trailer since I have 400+hp and 600 ftbs of toque in the blazer that is running one ton axles. But na I love my wood trips, I see so much game and in the spring and summer get to cast a line for trout. So I will take 10 trips just to be in the woods with my best friend the hound. It's still cheaper than paying the gas company to heat your house unless you count your own physical work per cord. I am a sucker for hard work that's what fire wood is no wonder it cost's $500.00 a cord here. It's hard work but well worth it in the end plus on your wood trips you just might fill the freezer with some Elk or Deer.

 

[howellhandmade]

I agree on the too much thought comment. If you're buying wood, you want to make sure you're getting a square deal, so I'd have a rack measured out for a cord. Once it's delivered, stack it. If it's less than a stacked cord you can complain, or not use that vendor anymore. From what I read here there's no shortage of vendors, and you can let them know that you have a measuring box for a cord and if they can't agree beforehand to deliver enough wood to fill it, stacked neatly, you don't have a deal. Whether they transport it tightly stacked or jumbled is their business.

Cutting your own wood, just get as much as you can find or store. Figure out how many cords that is by your standard. If you run out, it wasn't enough. If you have some left over, it's still not enough. Being a couple of years ahead is a good feeling.

Jack

 

[Dalmatian90]

128 cu ft of wood only contains 85 cubic feet of actual wood

Let's fix that:

128 cu ft of wood only contains 85 cubic feet of typical firewood, 16" in length and split small enough to pickup easily with one hand, when stacked and well ranked.

A 4'x4'x8' solid block of wood qualifies as a cord, too. And contains 128 c.f. of actual wood. A cord of 4"x4" would be a lot closer to 128 c.f. then 85 c.f.

A cord is not a precise measure of wood, and the buyer needs to make a value judgement. The only requirement is it's stacked and well ranked -- which means you've taken reasonable efforts to reduce air spaces.

Most of us if shown a cord of pine and a cord of oak will pay less for the pine -- fewer BTUs there.

Likewise if we see a cord of wood that contains a lot of air spaces, such as long, crooked logs we should pay less -- fewer BTUs there, even if it is stacked and ranked as good as it possibly could be.

It's a measure of convenience.

If we wanted an objective measurement of one load to the next, we would need two measurements that require equipment more sophisticated then a tape measure -- the weight of the load and the moisture content.

With those two you can calculate the amount of cellulose and from there determine the BTUs. Similiar in concept to Natural Gas being sold by the Therm (no set volume, natural gas varies by the BTUs per c.f. so they sell it by the Therm -- the amount that contains 100,000 BTUs).

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

Hello,
As for what your truck can hold, watch the leafs, but mind the tires as well. A 1/2 ton truck with "P" rated tires should not be taking a very heavy load. If you plan on hauling a lot of wood, consider some 8 or 10 ply, or load rated tires. A blow-out fully loaded can be a disaster. (Overloaded trucks are a pet peeve of mine. It's like driving drunk. You might get away with it, or you might.....)

:agree2:


Getting better tires made a big difference for me.

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

Let's fix that:

128 cu ft of wood only contains 85 cubic feet of typical firewood, 16" in length and split small enough to pickup easily with one hand, when stacked and well ranked.

...



With those two you can calculate the amount of cellulose and from there determine the BTUs. Similiar in concept to Natural Gas being sold by the Therm (no set volume, natural gas varies by the BTUs per c.f. so they sell it by the Therm -- the amount that contains 100,000 BTUs).

Outstanding post!



I have to add for the OP, I agree with the "overthinking" comments. I do understand why you are thinking this way, but in the long run, I think you'll be better off getting used to estimating your haul by eye. Load up your truck with rounds, take it home and split it, and see how much you get.

 

[KodiakKen]

after all the measurements..and weight..

do you cut every piece in half to make sure it is seasoned all the way through too? I am just razzin ya..I just delivered a pickup load to a guy that sent me an email prior to delivery and had some big words in it. He went on about stacking the wood in an organized manner to deliver. He got screwed in the past doesn't want it to happen again. I get it..20 times over. I deliver a truckload of wood for $100. Before anything happens I take the customer out and let them look and touch and sound or whatever else they want to before I unload. I would rather drive a load home than get a bad rep. well ended up he got called in to work. I thought great..well 7 a.m. the next day I get another email from him. said that the quality and quantity exceeded his expectations and he has never got that much wood at one time. I am thinking to myself..that is a pickup load of wood..is this guy serious. fwiw everyone likes a pat on the back every now and again

 

[howellhandmade]

do you cut every piece in half to make sure it is seasoned all the way through too? I am just razzin ya..I just delivered a pickup load to a guy that sent me an email prior to delivery and had some big words in it. He went on about stacking the wood in an organized manner to deliver. He got screwed in the past doesn't want it to happen again. I get it..20 times over. I deliver a truckload of wood for $100. Before anything happens I take the customer out and let them look and touch and sound or whatever else they want to before I unload. I would rather drive a load home than get a bad rep. well ended up he got called in to work. I thought great..well 7 a.m. the next day I get another email from him. said that the quality and quantity exceeded his expectations and he has never got that much wood at one time. I am thinking to myself..that is a pickup load of wood..is this guy serious. fwiw everyone likes a pat on the back every now and again

Good on ya. Underpromise and overdeliver, a little goes a long way.

Jack

 

[laser]

I figured you guys could appreciate an observation on the difficulty on quantifying wood, but my situation is unique from my observation, so I understand why it's hard for some of you to take it seriously.

Because most of my wood is already cut in rounds before I get it, my stacks are made up of all sorts of different cuts, which makes it hard to figure out if a rick is really a rick. If I was given logs, cut the rounds myself, then it'd be one thing, but that's not my situation. I've had 10 inch rounds, and 24 inch rounds, and everything in between. Stacking makes Tetris look easy.

But to answer your question on moisture, I found a thread about the MC of wood and how to measure it with a multimeter, and took random samples from my stacks to determine whether or not they need to go in the barn instead of the yard for final drying. Still working on that. Haven't hit a sample less than 22% yet. Most are between 25% and almost sizzling. I'm hoping most will be ready by Feb.

I've got 4 cords of wood finally split and stacked...but I always wonder if a cord is really a cord since my wood is all wonky. If you're plus or minus 20% on a cord, that's a big deal, and that's easy to do with air gaps. I think mine might have more than usual because I have 12" logs, and then 20" logs, and then square, and pie shape, and flat, etc. Some are shaped like clubs, even, only stranger. They really don't like to stack.

I've been scratching and clawing since the end of August, and I have about $160 (all gas) invested so far, and almost all of it is dry, or at least dry enough to burn without massive creosote problems. Nothing over 30% MC so far.

Only 4 more *cords* to go, I figure, due to my losses in efficiency from not being 20%. I don't want to run out at the end of Feb and be forced to find money to buy it.

Then I plan for next year.

 

[KodiakKen]

Hey Laser

I only have one question..do you want to pay some poor SOB to deliver you some green, miscut, mixed softwood? if not..plan 3 years ahead. Your good either way. If you get in a tough situation. Pay the extra $10 for a reputable dealer that will look you in the eye and shake your hand. nuff said

 

[dingeryote]

Laser,

As time goes by and ya get your own saw, trailer and splitter, you'll quit fussing over such things as much, because you wont be buying.

Get cozy with the guys at the local Saw shop a bit and they can point you towards the better wood dealers in the area that know what a Cord is and make sure to deliver a Cord and then some.

Good havin' ya here. Stick around!!

Stay safe!
Dingeryote

 

[howellhandmade]

It sounds like you're buying wood from a tree service, or someone else who wants to get rid of wood that's cut to length mostly for transport. If so, the price should be low enough to cover any errors in approximation. If not, you should be able to find a better source.

Jack

 

[laser]

Actually I do have a trailer, a splitter, and a saw. I don't know anyone that will give me enough logs. The neighbors gave me a few (4~5)? But that was barely enough for a cord, but it got me started.

*Emphasis*
I'm not paying for any wood.

I'm comparing the cost of gas and materials to the cost of buying it from a local provider on my road, and only go grab free wood if it's cheaper by the volume of wood than this particular provider, who sells at $100/cord (stacked 128cf, should be around 85 solid). I have not bought anything from him yet, because so far, from my calculations, he has not been the financially sound option.

My problem is because of the irregular size differences, it's hard to make a cost benefit analysis between random round lengths from Craigslist and something more standard, like a firewood provider (or my own cuts). I'm trying to be more accurate in my guestimizations, because lately, I've been cutting it close with some scores that are a bit of a drive, and I'm trying to figure out, strictly from a $$$ perspective, if I need to be buying from this guy down the road instead, or just waiting for a cheaper score (ie, closer, easier, more wood, drier wood).

Almost all the rounds I've gotten are from individuals who chopped a tree down themselves, or hired a company to do it, and then left the wood there for a while, and now they have a stack of it in their yard and they want it gone.

I just passed on a score from a 100 year old oak tree that had up to 36" rounds. You just couldn't get to it, and you'd have to split on site, but really didn't have anywhere to split. You couldn't park anywhere close with a trailer, because it was in the city. There were 29 rounds about that big. Over two years old. I cracked some smaller stuff, and it was knotty and gnarly like I've never seen (but actually very dry), so I figure the big stuff would be as bad, and told him it was too much trouble to get the rest (too much gas, money, and I would have had to rent some equipment...my splitter is horizontal, actually needed a vertical).

The way I figure that old oak, the average size of a round was about 32" diameter and 18 inches deep, that's about 240+ cubic feet of solid wood, on the conservative side. Since a *cord* of wood is only 85 cubic feet of *solid wood*, after you stack and split, you should have almost 3 *normal* cords of wood (240/85=2.8)

My whole point about observations, is that most people I've seen look at 240 cu ft of solid wood, and say that's less than 2 cords, and they ignore air volume, or underestimate air volume. This plays into many things. I can carry 80 cubic feet of wood in my Rover and trailer. That's *air* cubic feet. If you split it and *throw* it in the trailer, 85cf density turns into 180cf of density because of the air, and lack of neat stacking. That ratio is 47% of wood per volume. That means I am only using 47% of my capacity to carry actual wood. That means my 80cf are only getting 37.7 *actual* cubic feet from those rounds at a time. So then you have to divide the 240 *solid wood* calculation by 40, to figure out how many trips, then you have to figure out gas, then you add 20% for misc expenses, to make sure you have a buffer if you calculated wrong.

If I *stack* the same amount of wood tight after I split it, I get to use 66% of my 80cf, which is 52cf, which is 40% more wood per trip! Now, I know there's some variation, but I doubt the margin of error accounts for 40%. What I'd like to know, how many cf I'm grabbing from just rounds, but I don't think there's an average ratio for air on rounds, so I'm probably going to have to measure and average several loads and come up with my own number. As I can't stack the rounds level, and I have less smaller sizes to stack tight, I think that I might be closer to hand tossed ratios than stacked. If I ignored weight, I think I could transport more than the other two methods for the same cubic feet in my transport setup. That's another problem, I hit 2~2.4k lbs quick.

If I used *normal* estimates, I'd get my load number wrong by over 50%, and my gas would be underestimated, and I'd be grabbing wood that wasn't as cheap as buying it, and I would be wasting money that I don't have.

THAT'S my point in these observations. That's it. Nothing else. I'm trying to compare apples to apples instead of apples to oranges for when I start transporting.

If you don't account for air difference on how you stack/throw, your numbers are pretty much useless. This whole situation is complicated by the random round length, so even after you are done, and you stack it, you're not really sure on volume, you're just in a ball park, because you still can't account for air enough due to non-standard splits.

So it's a lot of guess work, and I'm trying to remove more variables, and guess less, or at least guess more accurately. I was looking for some people to offer insight into the analysis, not tell me I was over thinking. I don't go around telling people they under think (boy would I stay busy). I expect the same.

 

[gwiley]

Be careful moving firewood out of Fairfax and nearby counties - there is a firewood quarantine in effect with VERY STIFF fines. I turned down a big score because the potential fines were something like $25,000.

Splitting on site isn't as bad as you think, even when stuff is hard to get to if you are collecting the firewood for yourself and not trying to make money on it.

I use a heavy duty wagon to move split pieces and a heavy duty hand truck to move rounds from the tree to the closest point I can get my truck. It is nice to not muscle big rounds into the truck - my back lasts long with more smaller lifts than a few nearly injurious ones.

 

[laser]

I'm already inside the quarantine area.

 

[laser]

Splitting on site isn't as bad as you think, even when stuff is hard to get to if you are collecting the firewood for yourself and not trying to make money on it.

I use a heavy duty wagon to move split pieces and a heavy duty hand truck to move rounds from the tree to the closest point I can get my truck. It is nice to not muscle big rounds into the truck - my back lasts long with more smaller lifts than a few nearly injurious ones.

Things I don't have : heavy wagon, heavy hand truck, pickup truck.

Cost of heavy wagon, over $100, cost of heavy hand truck, about $100...not going to buy a pickup anytime soon. I could buy two cords of wood by then.

Splitting onsite would have required towing in a splitter, and there wasn't even room for that. My splitter wouldn't have worked, there's no way to load a 32 inch round on a horizontal splitter by yourself. Maybe a truck crane mounted to something. Only another $250+.

Renting a vertical splitter is $100 a day with a trailer. I can't afford to take multiple vehicles around. The gas is cost prohibitive for small scores.

 

[howellhandmade]

So, you're limited by the size of load you can carry and the cost of gas. By the time you make X trips for a given volume of wood you've spent more in gas than you would have spent having the wood delivered. Since you've already figured your load capacity to the cubic foot far more closely than most of us have ever considered, I would think a more pertinent calculation would be to determine at what distance it is no longer profitable to fetch your own wood. You seem pretty detail-oriented, so figuring your cost per cubic foot per mile should be possible, with whatever factor you want to add for your own trouble and for the quality/species of the wood. What you need to know is just how much wood is in the "cord" delivered by the vendor, which is something nobody but the vendor can answer.

For ease of transport, don't forget splitting by hand. Particularly if you're not doing a large load -- in clear wood you can split as fast as or faster than a splitter, just not as long.

Jack

 

[dingeryote]

Things I don't have : heavy wagon, heavy hand truck, pickup truck.

Cost of heavy wagon, over $100, cost of heavy hand truck, about $100...not going to buy a pickup anytime soon. I could buy two cords of wood by then.

Splitting onsite would have required towing in a splitter, and there wasn't even room for that. My splitter wouldn't have worked, there's no way to load a 32 inch round on a horizontal splitter by yourself. Maybe a truck crane mounted to something. Only another $250+.

Renting a vertical splitter is $100 a day with a trailer. I can't afford to take multiple vehicles around. The gas is cost prohibitive for small scores.

Ya need to hook up with another Saw junkie/woodrat, and learn some of the tricks.

You can turn a 32" round into a 16" half round in 20 seconds using the saw.
From there smacking it with a Maul is easy and quick work.

A small trailer can be had for around 100 bucks or so, and will pay for itself in short order.

Call around to the local tree service guys and see what they do with haul off's. If they are taking stuff to the dump, offer to take thier haul off's for free.

Call the local municipality and see what they do with thier haul off's.
You might be surprised.

Buying wood sucks the fun out of it, and dosn't save much of anything over the long run.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote

 

[laser]

Ya need to hook up with another Saw junkie/woodrat, and learn some of the tricks.

You can turn a 32" round into a 16" half round in 20 seconds using the saw.
From there smacking it with a Maul is easy and quick work.

A small trailer can be had for around 100 bucks or so, and will pay for itself in short order.

Call around to the local tree service guys and see what they do with haul off's. If they are taking stuff to the dump, offer to take thier haul off's for free.

Call the local municipality and see what they do with thier haul off's.
You might be surprised.

Buying wood sucks the fun out of it, and dosn't save much of anything over the long run.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote

I agree with pretty much everything you said. I don't have the physical capability to swing a maul that would split that (arthritis, thanks Mom), and I'm not comfortable enough with a chainsaw yet, and my blades are dull on one side and it pulls on big rounds/logs, and people in the city don't like chainsaws, they complain about the noise.

Chainsaw sharpening files are 4~9 bucks, but then I get into I don't know what the hell I'm doing (yet). So for now, I try to stay away from using it unless necessary...that and it's not my saw, I'm bumming it because I can't afford one right now, and so I try to use it at the house, not tote it on a site, because my neighbor might not like that so much if something happened to it, and I can't reimburse him right now. In the spring, when money gets better, I'll buy a Stihl, or worse case scenario, a cheapo so I'm not bumming one.

The hand truck is on my to-get list, I realize the importance of one of those now that I'm knee deep in grabbing wood.

I've gotten about a *cord* from a wood processor that was dry, and called several others. The offers I got were for green wood, which works in the spring, but not now.

Moving into this place in August really put me behind the curve. Next fall shouldn't be nearly as hectic, and it gives me more time to get my tools together.

My next problem is getting a trailer small enough to move around my yard with the axle capacity to carry a *cord* of wood at one time, without breaking the bank. Long term goal there. I can't use anything longer than 10ft, and I'd like a tandem axle. Don't see too many 5x10s with dual 3500lbs axles with sides and brakes under $2k.

I saw some 7x10s on Ebay, but they were in California. $4k, too.

Oh, and when I was there with this 36" round, I drove a wedge in and was wacking on it with an 8lb maul, and I couldn't get it to go deeper than 1 inch. I wanted to really get after it, but everything was so tight, his car was right there, and I didn't want to launch that wedge into his Subaru. I was giving reasonable effort, though, and it wasn't playing nice. I've been told I need a bigger sledge/maul. That's extra money, though.

I'm only 140lbs. I don't have the benefit of mass.

If this thing was in a field, or even closer, I'd be chopping on it right now. The situation had too many constraints for my resources.

But I had to do a bunch of calculations to come to that conclusion. It's hard to turn down free wood...but like they say...there's no such thing as free wood.

A local wood rat would be nice to find. I'm the only one I know right now.