epa laws in PA

[Storm56]

Slick it sounds like you are burning clean...good for you!


It a shame a small percentage of OWB abusers have drawn so much attention. It wasn't but just a few years ago we had guys bragging about burning tires and all kinds of trash in their OWB's...but oddly...they have quieted up these days.

What bothers me about your stated position in this thread is that you want to ban every non EPA stove for what you have now admitted are a few people that are causing problems. I like Slick only burned seasoned wood in my stove. I do not have close neighbors. I have invested thousands of dollars in my setup, yet you have no problem banning my operation that you have NEVER even laid eyes on, and that you could care less about MY HARD EARNED INVESTMENT and considerable labor that it has taken to put it all together. Throw it all away, screw you and go to **** as far as you are concerned. As I stated in an earlier post, you want to take that big sloppy govt paint brush and do away with us all.

That attitude I have a HUGE problem with.

 

[Windwalker7]

I personally feel TreeCo should be banned from the forums.

No different if Al Gore himself were on here preaching the same thing.

I belong to a few hunting forums. Anyone that comes on an starts preaching ANYTHING that is anti hunting is banned.

Be a good idea here!

 

[Slick]

Good point about the chainsaws.. yet another good example of putting new emissions standards in place and not banning previous equipment, so that's wood stoves, chainsaws, automotive does it constantantly, even gas etc furnaces and air conditioners...they up the seer rating on AC units all the time and make it illegal to sell lower than a certain rating...but they don't make you remove the old AC units already in use.

Can anyone think of an efficiency or emissions type level that has been set for consumers that actually made it illegal to use any of the previously rated equipment like this proposed PA law does? Where is the precedence for this?

 

[gwiley]

I personally feel TreeCo should be banned from the forums.

No different if Al Gore himself were on here preaching the same thing.

I belong to a few hunting forums. Anyone that comes on an starts preaching ANYTHING that is anti hunting is banned.

Be a good idea here!

While I understand your idea I don't think that creates the most healthy environment for discussion. Treeco has good/helpful stuff to say on other topics - I just choose to not bother reading the silliness.

I like the fact that folks can openly disagree - remember we don't have to follow a particular thread or read/respond to a particular post.

 

[wampum]

While I understand your idea I don't think that creates the most healthy environment for discussion. Treeco has good/helpful stuff to say on other topics - I just choose to not bother reading the silliness.

I like the fact that folks can openly disagree - remember we don't have to follow a particular thread or read/respond to a particular post.

I agree,I have disagreed with Tree a lot over the years. How ever I find a lot of knowledge in some of his posts and respect his right to his opinion. He made the statement that people have the right to breath. I agree with this,if you are burning garbage in an area where your neighbor has to breath it,you are wrong. We should all exercise common sense. I hate to see any new law written by the government,pertaining my personal rights. If common sense would have been used in the past,ma-be these laws would not even be considered. One thing I feel should be done,is it should be on a case by case situation. In other words if you are a responsible burner and no one is complaining then you should be allowed to continue. If you are burning garbage,and this effects your neighbors well being,by all means you should be made to conform. As far as guns or hunting are concerned,start talking about how you poach or shoot animals and leave them lay,or shoot close to and in the direction of a home. Most common sense hunters would disagree with you and want you stopped. Garbage burners are not using bullets but the stink from their stove is pretty bad. Like I said there has to be middle ground where common sense comes into play. I also agree that owners of old stoves should be grand fathered in. You burn clean dry wood,you are okay,but your next stove will have to comply.

 

[ray benson]

If you search this forum you will see lots of info on OWB regulations and proposed standards. Restricting emissions on OWB's is coming .There are companies that make OWB's that meet the proposed standards. If I wanted to install one I would pick from that group.

 

[Storm56]

If you search this forum you will see lots of info on OWB regulations and proposed standards. Restricting emissions on OWB's is coming .There are companies that make OWB's that meet the proposed standards. If I wanted to install one I would pick from that group.

I do not believe that any of us that have posted on this thread have disagreed with some reasonable standards on FUTURE installations after the standards are established. The problem is that the EPA in Pennsylvania wants to impose their own unreasonable standards on EXISTING stove installations. This type of action is unprecedented. Never has this been done before with consumer products. Not in automotive, small engine, marine, motorcycles, snowmobiles, atv's, you name it. New standards were applied after a certain date and everything prior to that was grandfathered in.

 

[olyman]

they tried to do this very same thing, in a cty just north of cr,ia--luckily--people found out soon enough--:censored::censored:

 

[zeliespecwriter]

Write the PA EPA!

I received a letter from my state rep stating to send my concerns about the new regulations to the Environmental Quality Board, P.O. Box 8477, Harrisburg, PA 17105-8477 or submit my comments electronically by going to [email protected]. Comments must be received by January 4, 2010. It is funny how the state legislature has given so much power to the Department of Environmental Protection. Hopefully the letter made it as an attachment to this post.

 

[LTREES]

Some people just don't care. they burn green wood and crap that causes a 100 ft. smoke cloud. My CB is in its 2 nd year burning. I have 2 new EPA Jotul stoves in my house which smoke alot more than the CB. My wife is upset we have 4k worth of stoves we don't use. I'm pissed cause my 22' stack is not going to be high enough. I put all my chips into 1 stack to save money in the long run. The gov. says that I have to work over time to buy oil and take the 12k you spent and flush it down the drain. If I am not offensive to my neighbors, leave me alone. Fine the offenders and educate them, leave Pa alone.

LT...

 

[trouba]

I think EPA stoves are a bunch of BS I can make my new EPA stove smoke a lot, its all in how you run them, on the same note I can burn my 1942 Warn Morning stove as clean as most people burn their EPA stoves. The whole thing is a JOKE and were the ones paying the bill.

"Don't Tread on Me"

 

[wampum]

Some people just don't care. they burn green wood and crap that causes a 100 ft. smoke cloud. My CB is in its 2 nd year burning. I have 2 new EPA Jotul stoves in my house which smoke alot more than the CB. My wife is upset we have 4k worth of stoves we don't use. I'm pissed cause my 22' stack is not going to be high enough. I put all my chips into 1 stack to save money in the long run. The gov. says that I have to work over time to buy oil and take the 12k you spent and flush it down the drain. If I am not offensive to my neighbors, leave me alone. Fine the offenders and educate them, leave Pa alone.

LT...

Good post:

 

[trouba]

So you can make an EPA stove smoke a lot. Have you ever wondered what the outcome would be if you ran an EPA stove to the best of your ability?

TreeCo I guess you missed the point of my post. I was just stating that I can make my old stove burn clean, or burn with a EPA stove just as dirty as a non EPA stove (not run by me I run mine to the best of my ability). The only time you ever see any evidence ie smoke from my old stoves are when first lit and when it has been reloaded, humm come to think of it the same holds true when it comes to my EPA stove. Sooo for your information I do run my all my stove's to the best of my ablity no smoke dragons here, and I still think all this EPA stuff is just a bunch of BS.

This is a picture of an old stove.

 

[wampum]

I received a letter from my state rep stating to send my concerns about the new regulations to the Environmental Quality Board, P.O. Box 8477, Harrisburg, PA 17105-8477 or submit my comments electronically by going to [email protected]. Comments must be received by January 4, 2010. It is funny how the state legislature has given so much power to the Department of Environmental Protection. Hopefully the letter made it as an attachment to this post.

Martin,Jaret will once again probably get my vote. He actually walked up through the field where I was splitting wood and told me who he was and he was running for state rep. Seems like a pretty common sense down to earth kid. I will watch how he votes on this. If he is being honest he will get my vote,if not I will vote against him. Thanks for the info Dave.

 

[trouba]

"The arguement is old and you lost it a long time ago"

Thats what the British thought just before they lost that thing called the Revolutionary war.

I never said EPA stoves were bad I just don't think there that great either, and as far as hating the EPA I never said that but I have seen them in action. My dad used to own a gas station that was contaminated they dug up the site hauled all the dirt to a landfill buy the Cedar River where it was supposed to be spread out and tilled so it could air out (they had a more technical term you know EPA speak). Well to make along story short the dirt never was spread out and the river flooded and years later it still sat in piles. The trucking for that alone cost over 100 thousand dollars in 1990s money so forgive me if I seem a little leary of this big government agency.

"Is Central Boiler just BS'ing us?" yep that is a nice setup but I would like to see that boiler run in the real world I don't doubt it can run as efficient as they say I just doubt that its 100% of the time (glad to see we can agree on something). Plus its kinda hard to put that in my living room. I am just speaking of my experience with my stoves not boilers. Big city government has already dictatorship I mean dictated I cant have one of those.

Don't drink the kool-Aid the polar bears aren't dieing.

 

[Mike PA]

Treeco: The point of the PA regs is not efficiency, it is to reduce airborne particulate matter. Trouba's point is simply that an old stove can and does burn well with little visible exhaust. Do the EPA stoves do better generally: yes. But, properly operated, many non-EPA stoves put out very little smoke.

It's a common practice when arguing a point to shift the focus of the argument slightly so that you (collective, not you personally) are still correct. This is what Treeco did in his post to Trouba. He shifted the argument from smoke and particulate matter to efficiency. These are two different arguments, and not the point of the PA regs. The PA regs are simply to reduce smoke and to eliminate smokers. As someone else said, it would be better to deal with the offenders than to punish the good burners. It's just like in High School when the teachers couldn't figure out who did what, they just punished the whole class because of a bad egg. Wasn't right then, not right now.

The bottom line is too much government interference. We are steadily giving more and more control to the government to "protect" us. When are we going to learn to "protect" ourselves?

 

[Mike PA]

You know what kills me about this? The DEP, in their vast wisdom, set several public meetings concerning OWB to occur during the first few days of rifle season here in PA. Who do you think is using these stoves the most? Pretty cowardly move by the DEP, if you ask me.

 

[RON58]

Are you kidding me ? Sounds like our township meetings here,They hold them mornings during the week so ya gotta take off work to attend. Hell, not many can do that these days. I'm gonna need to work all I can to pay all my wood burner fines????????? WE ARE IN TROUBLE

 

[Butch(OH)]

I have not taken the time to read the proposed Pa regs but if they are anything at all like the ones proposed here in Ahia my problem with them lies more with the ever more far reaching powers of EPA than with pollution. Think about it? Your OWB must be "X" feet away from the property line, Your stack must be "X" feet high. What is it with that crap? Is the EPA a pollution control agency or an extension of the damned land use and zoning Nazis?? I wrote my state representative and asked, "If my OWB pollutes in my neighborhood then is it not polluting in the middle of 4000 acres??" Without rewriting my entire letter to them I basically told them to ban them all,,, or none, but stay the heck out of zoning and land use, they have no power or authority there. Stack heights are the same issue, how does raising a stack change pollution? If the stack emissions are killing the my fellow man or mother earth at 10' it is killing them at 35'. Raising the stack only thins out the smoke so neighbors are not bothered by it, RIGHT? so I ask again, is that and EPA issue?? or a land use and zoning issue?

I own a OWB, I have close neighbors, I am an independent, land owners rights and conservative SOB, but I can see where there are places that OWBs do not belong because the operator is an idiot, or the direction of prevailing winds. But those things are not for the EPA to decide, it is a local land use issue, aka zoning.

Keep the land use and zoning, pollution and MORAL issues separated and this whole OWB pollution deal is easier to understand and make sensible comment about.

I feel better now, thanks for listening. Now I am getting cold so Im going out to throw a tire in the OWB,,, a 13" one not a 20" because the 13" pollute less and I care about the environment, and today I burn tires because the wind is blowing away from my close neighbor and into the open field beside me.

That line of thought makes about as much sense as the proposed regs,,, well dont it???

 

[gwiley]

I own a OWB, I have close neighbors, I am an independent, land owners rights and conservative SOB, but I can see where there are places that OWBs do not belong because the operator is an idiot, or the direction of prevailing winds. But those things are not for the EPA to decide, it is a local land use issue, aka zoning.

Keep the land use and zoning, pollution and MORAL issues separated and this whole OWB pollution deal is easier to understand and make sensible comment about.

Very well said - rep coming your way.