Advice on Trimming
- Thread starter Blair Sonnek
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Would like to see what the rest of the tree looks like...but yes.
Also, pull the mulch away from the trunk. You should see a flare where the trunk transitions to roots at ground level...that could be a bigger long-term problem than the branches.
Also, pull the mulch away from the trunk. You should see a flare where the trunk transitions to roots at ground level...that could be a bigger long-term problem than the branches.
Blair Sonnek
ArboristSite Lurker
Blair Sonnek
ArboristSite Lurker
Pruning:
*Prune off all 3 of the lowest limbs - confirming your original suspicion.
*There is also a codominate leader. I'd prune off the left side in that picture.
Ed Gilman has some great resources about structural pruning: https://hort.ifas.ufl.edu/woody/structural-pruning-flash.shtml
You don't have an obvious/easy straight central leader...but you never will if you don't get on that now. When you take that left side off, it will look a little odd for a couple of years, but in the long-term will look much better and be a stronger tree.
Now, onto the roots. Glad you posted that pic.
A) Loose the landscape fabric. It inhibits air and water exchange between the soil and the air above. As mulch breaks down it normally adds a really nice organic mix into the soil and the tree roots love it. With fabric on top, it makes organic soil on top of the fabric (so weeds grow there anyhow), but the tree roots can't have it. I tell people the only good thing it does is make a landscaper money...so it has already served its only purpose, so you can get rid of it.
B) Keep digging. You should see an obvious flare where the trunk goes to roots. This is called the root flare. It SHOULD be at ground level and you might need to left the tree to get it there. If the tree is too deep and has been in the ground for a few years, it might not be possible to lift it. In that case, the next best option is to still excavate to expose that and, unfortunately, the tree will be in a big of a bowl.
C) We can already see some tiny roots starting to wrap around the trunk. These will develop into stem girdling roots which will kill the tree (this is one of the big problems with deep planting...). Cut off those encircling roots.
Here is an article about planting too deep: http://forestry.ohiodnr.gov/portals/forestry/urbantoolbox/articles/perilsplantingtreesdeeply.pdf
And another Gilman one: https://hort.ifas.ufl.edu/woody/root-ball-dimensions.shtml
Happy digging! Your tree will thank you for it! (or it will die in 10-15 years if you don't fix it...not to sound over-dramatic, but it is what we see far too often with deep planted trees - which are far too common!)
*Prune off all 3 of the lowest limbs - confirming your original suspicion.
*There is also a codominate leader. I'd prune off the left side in that picture.
Ed Gilman has some great resources about structural pruning: https://hort.ifas.ufl.edu/woody/structural-pruning-flash.shtml
You don't have an obvious/easy straight central leader...but you never will if you don't get on that now. When you take that left side off, it will look a little odd for a couple of years, but in the long-term will look much better and be a stronger tree.
Now, onto the roots. Glad you posted that pic.
A) Loose the landscape fabric. It inhibits air and water exchange between the soil and the air above. As mulch breaks down it normally adds a really nice organic mix into the soil and the tree roots love it. With fabric on top, it makes organic soil on top of the fabric (so weeds grow there anyhow), but the tree roots can't have it. I tell people the only good thing it does is make a landscaper money...so it has already served its only purpose, so you can get rid of it.
B) Keep digging. You should see an obvious flare where the trunk goes to roots. This is called the root flare. It SHOULD be at ground level and you might need to left the tree to get it there. If the tree is too deep and has been in the ground for a few years, it might not be possible to lift it. In that case, the next best option is to still excavate to expose that and, unfortunately, the tree will be in a big of a bowl.
C) We can already see some tiny roots starting to wrap around the trunk. These will develop into stem girdling roots which will kill the tree (this is one of the big problems with deep planting...). Cut off those encircling roots.
Here is an article about planting too deep: http://forestry.ohiodnr.gov/portals/forestry/urbantoolbox/articles/perilsplantingtreesdeeply.pdf
And another Gilman one: https://hort.ifas.ufl.edu/woody/root-ball-dimensions.shtml
Happy digging! Your tree will thank you for it! (or it will die in 10-15 years if you don't fix it...not to sound over-dramatic, but it is what we see far too often with deep planted trees - which are far too common!)
Blair Sonnek
ArboristSite Lurker
Wow! Thank you so much for your response. I can't thank you enough for the information and your experience. After reading your reply, I've discovered stem girdling in my other well established maple trees and need to do some major work to fix a 2-3 inch girdling root. I felt like I was planting them correctly, but I clearly underestimated where the root flare and ground level was.
This Deborah maple (aka Debby) that we've been discussing is between a Autumn Blaze and Marmo Maple, both these maples have really taken off and have the most potential. I think one day there won't be room for this Deborah maple tree anyway. I also did a poor job of planting it so I might just take my lesson learned and move on from Debby. We'll see tho, I need it to warm up a bit and i'll start digging on Debby and see what I find. Might be a good experiment and learning experience to see what happens.
I'll post a progress update in a few weeks.
Thanks again!
AGoodSteward
Power Head
Read up on encircling roots before you cut. Use clean, sharp instruments.
With your deeply planted one it may not have established a new root system yet. It may Stihl be possible to lift it out and replant it at the proper depth. Use the root ball not the stem to lift it. You might even just transplant it to a different location if you've reconsidered where you have it.
Thanks ATH again. I looked at this OP, but didn't want to type out the length of answers it deserved.
With your deeply planted one it may not have established a new root system yet. It may Stihl be possible to lift it out and replant it at the proper depth. Use the root ball not the stem to lift it. You might even just transplant it to a different location if you've reconsidered where you have it.
Thanks ATH again. I looked at this OP, but didn't want to type out the length of answers it deserved.
Don't beat yourself up too hard...MANY (if not most) trees come too deep from the nursery. Unless you know that the top of the root ball needs excavated, you are going to plant it too deep even if it is at the same depth it came. I just helped with a class last week where we planted trees. We planted 3 maple and 3 Ginkgo. All 3 of the maple were too deep and had started developing secondary root systems that we pruned off to get them to the correct height.
Now you know and can start planting correctly!
While a 2" diameter root is a big one to prune, here is the way I look at it: If you don't prune it, the tree will certainly suffer, and possible die (I don't know how bad the root on your tree is). If you do prune it and introduce too much decay, the tree may die. One way you give it a chance, the other, you don't. I'd take the chance. I agree with @AGoodSteward that you need to make good cuts with sharp tools (and be careful to avoid damage to the bark that you are leaving).
Now you know and can start planting correctly!
While a 2" diameter root is a big one to prune, here is the way I look at it: If you don't prune it, the tree will certainly suffer, and possible die (I don't know how bad the root on your tree is). If you do prune it and introduce too much decay, the tree may die. One way you give it a chance, the other, you don't. I'd take the chance. I agree with @AGoodSteward that you need to make good cuts with sharp tools (and be careful to avoid damage to the bark that you are leaving).
Blair Sonnek
ArboristSite Lurker
We had a warm day today and I couldn’t wait to do some digging to see what I’d uncover.
Figured I’d post the pictures of what I was talking about with the root girdling on the Marmo Maple.
First two pictures are the Marmo.
3rd picture is Deborah maple we’ve been discussing that was buried too deep.
4th is the Marmo that I need to do some structural pruning on after researching those websites.
I cut a lot of smaller roots when digging deeper on that Deborah maple. You can see on the right side where the root was growing right below that fabric. I may need to do some more digging yet
Thanks again for your help. So glad I found this site.
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Did you cut that root off of the trunk (in pic 2)? Don't worry about the root over root in the bottom of that picture - roots will graft together, but they will not graft to stem/trunk tissue.
That does need some help with structural pruning, but it is not to bad. Will look really good with just a little work.
That does need some help with structural pruning, but it is not to bad. Will look really good with just a little work.
Blair Sonnek
ArboristSite Lurker
I have not made any cuts yet. I was planning to cut that root off the trunk. I will leave the other root in the bottom of the picture alone.
I posted a picture of the cuts i'd make. I'd plan to do cut #1 - Then I can pull the root back off the main root to give me a better angle at making cut #2. Do you think this will work well? I might even do more digging to see how far back I can make Cut #2
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I'd probably make cut 1 out a little further so you have more to pull on. To see what else is going on, you might get the hose and put it on a strong stream to spray that off. It will be a muddy mess, but give it a little time to dry. I use a giant air compressor and an AirKnife, but not everybody has one of those - so you gotta use what you can. Even a squirt bottle and brush might help clean it back a little. If you can, yes...it would be best to make cut 2 back a few inches.
Blair Sonnek
ArboristSite Lurker
Honestly I'm not entirely convinced that big root to the left isn't a secondary root...(primarily roots may be deeper). At any rate, no, I wouldn't try to graft them. No, don't treat with anything. Leave the tree planted at the correct depth, whatever that means for how those cuts look - exposed or buried.
