Breaking in a noob

[northmanlogging]

So.. I never really got taught how to fall timber, picked it up as I went, a little by watching others, and learned a bunch on this site and a few others.

But I do OK and haven't had many real big **** ups, largely from the stand point of not pushing my luck any farther then I have too, and when in doubt put a line in it.

But I got a guy, that is going to be running his own ins, and biz etc that wants to learn timber falling. Not saying I'm the best teacher around, but I am one of the few around here that still hand fall, and probably the only one with the ability to slow down a little and teach.

Anyway, whats some of you more experienced folks thoughts/memories good and bad about breaking in.

I'm not big on hazing, for reasons... but stories is stories.

 

[madhatte]

I know jack about breaking in production fallers but I've sent more than a few fire nerds out into the world with a piece of paper that says they can cut stuff. I'd like to suggest that you get together your ideas of what "the basics" are, and write them down, and follow them as a guideline. This will in no way ensure that you have sent a competent person into the workforce, but it will insulate you from their mistakes as much as possible. The "I LEARNED IT FROM WATCHING YOU, DAD" argument holds way more water than it should.

 

[bitzer]

How much experience does the guy have?

 

[Bwildered]

Theres a joke about an old fellow telling someone about his hopeless worker, he said " I can't understand that bloke, I've taught him all I know & he still knows nothing! "
Thanski

 

[Gologit]

 

[fool skip]

Things are so much different now. I put in my time bumping knots and bucking on the landing. From there the company put partnered me up with a Master Faller. He would fall a tree and knock off the butt log and I would limb and buck the rest while he was facing another one. Our scale was usually right there with the other sets who were single jacking. This was in nice timber. When we hit a dog hair patch I would fall and buck my own. I don't know if this is possible any more. There's a book by Doug Dent called "Procedural Timber Falling" that should be required reading. If he has good sense, some coordination and listening ability, he should pick it up. Teach him to read his stumps and always strive to improve. I still do this as do most good fallers. If he has trouble reading bind on his bucking cuts tell him to cut the bottom out first. If he doesn't cut corners off and keeps his trees in the open he should be all right. In my day you earned your right to fall timber usually by putting in your time logging. Best of luck.

 

[northmanlogging]

How much experience does the guy have?

15yrs as a saw wrench at ye ole local saw shop/rental yard, and a bunch of firewood experience, mostly he's focused on running equipment, but wants to get more confident at falling timber. As his new biz will have some of that involved.

Had him out last Friday for some pull work, and hid did pretty good as far as ground work with his saw, and knows how to listen, even if it takes 4-5 tries...

 

[RandyMac]

I was very fortunate, I worked with old men.

 

[bitzer]

I think some guys get it and some don't. Some like the idea and some don't really have to think about it much. It reminds of a line in Jeremiah Johnson - white man he likes tracking. Indian figures it's just natural.

 

[Gologit]

Had him out last Friday for some pull work, and hid did pretty good as far as ground work with his saw, and knows how to listen, even if it takes 4-5 tries...

It sounds like he has the right attitude. If he wants to learn and if he'll listen when you tell him something the rest is just technique. You know enough to teach him that.
It's a big responsibility. He'll be watching you like a hawk and absorbing not just what you tell him but what you yourself do.
You're right about hazing - it's counter productive when a guy is trying to learn something new. You can pick at him a little after he's been around awhile though.
I started out working summers packing for my uncle when I was fourteen. He'd been hurt when a log rolled on him. He could still run saw but he couldn't pack. We were cutting old growth Redwood and using handle bar Macs and 125s.
The only saws I touched the first year were ones I was fueling or carrying. When we had a bar with a stinger on it I got the dumb end. The second year I started bucking on easy lays, working up to harder stuff and under close supervision as the season went on. The next year I started falling, mostly the easy stuff on long ground. My uncle was there for every tree and he wasn't shy about giving advice. Some of the advice was very loud and to the point. I was a slow learner but I wanted to fall and he made sure I knew what I was doing. He kept the standards up and expected more from me as time went on.
By the end of the season I was doing most of the falling and things just went on from there. I didn't really appreciate a lot of what he taught me until I went out on my own and had to do my own thinking. He fell timber like a pool shark plays nine ball...always thinking a couple of moves ahead, always planning, always thinking about what to do if things went haywire. Saving out timber was like a religion to him.

 

[Gologit]

I was very fortunate, I worked with old men.

Yup. Same here. Hell, some of those guys must have been forty or fifty years old.

 

[northmanlogging]

It sounds like he has the right attitude. If he wants to learn and if he'll listen when you tell him something the rest is just technique. You know enough to teach him that.
It's a big responsibility. He'll be watching you like a hawk and absorbing not just what you tell him but what you yourself do.
You're right about hazing - it's counter productive when a guy is trying to learn something new. You can pick at him a little after he's been around awhile though.
I started out working summers packing for my uncle when I was fourteen. He'd been hurt when a log rolled on him. He could still run saw but he couldn't pack. We were cutting old growth Redwood and using handle bar Macs and 125s.
The only saws I touched the first year were ones I was fueling or carrying. When we had a bar with a stinger on it I got the dumb end. The second year I started bucking on easy lays, working up to harder stuff and under close supervision as the season went on. The next year I started falling, mostly the easy stuff on long ground. My uncle was there for every tree and he wasn't shy about giving advice. Some of the advice was very loud and to the point. I was a slow learner but I wanted to fall and he made sure I knew what I was doing. He kept the standards up and expected more from me as time went on.
By the end of the season I was doing most of the falling and things just went on from there. I didn't really appreciate a lot of what he taught me until I went out on my own and had to do my own thinking. He fell timber like a pool shark plays nine ball...always thinking a couple of moves ahead, always planning, always thinking about what to do if things went haywire. Saving out timber was like a religion to him.

No pressure or anything...

One of my biggest issues with training folks in a machine shop, is I would assume that they had at least some clue of where to start, but sadly most couldn't grasp simple concepts like tightening bolts... so i would tell em where I was at and what I needed done and bounce, come in the next day to a molten mess and a pile of red tags.

So start over I would... until they quit or got fired


This is different, cause dude is coming in with the stand point of "I know nothing and I'm a little scared" so its step by step we go.

 

[northmanlogging]

Yup. Same here. Hell, some of those guys must have been forty or fifty years old.

Wait... you sayin I'm old?

 

[RandyMac]

Yup. Same here. Hell, some of those guys must have been forty or fifty years old.

Really ancient old guys, in their 50s and 60s.

 

[Gologit]

Wait... you sayin I'm old?

Not compared to a Redwood tree, no.

 

[Gologit]

Really ancient old guys, in their 50s and 60s.

Yup. What those guys didn't know wasn't worth knowing. My Grandfather's first job in the woods was putting tallow on the skid road logs so the oxen could pull easier.
After that he and his brother went to falling with axes and misery whips. He could always find a job because he could chop the face right or left handed. A lot of guys couldn't do that.

 

[2dogs]

I hope you guys get a chance to meet Gologit and have him tell you about how he apprenticed . This was after the whole Red Sea thing and tree were plentiful and Bob said Moses was a great teacher. Of course oxen were the only skidders available but acacia trees are fairly small. Bob was one of the first fallers to modify their jawbone saw by adapting bear teeth to replace the ass'. (Don't ask about that calf incident!)

 

[chucker]

Yup. Same here. Hell, some of those guys must have been forty or fifty years old.

and looked like they were 70!!!

 

[chucker]

No pressure or anything...

One of my biggest issues with training folks in a machine shop, is I would assume that they had at least some clue of where to start, but sadly most couldn't grasp simple concepts like tightening bolts... so i would tell em where I was at and what I needed done and bounce, come in the next day to a molten mess and a pile of red tags.

So start over I would... until they quit or got fired


This is different, cause dude is coming in with the stand point of "I know nothing and I'm a little scared" so its step by step we go.

he's honest so that means more then "yupp ---- I did that on my last job" !!

 

[Gologit]

I hope you guys get a chance to meet Gologit and have him tell you about how he apprenticed . This was after the whole Red Sea thing and tree were plentiful and Bob said Moses was a great teacher. Of course oxen were the only skidders available but acacia trees are fairly small. Bob was one of the first fallers to modify their jawbone saw by adapting bear teeth to replace the ass'. (Don't ask about that calf incident!)

Uh huh...says the guy who's 60 how many years old now?

Besides, Noah needed timber for his ark and you kids weren't getting enough wood on the ground to build a canoe so us older guys had to step up and show you how it's done.