Where do fallers get their experience from?

[WannabeFireFaller]

Username probably gives it away.

After working on a fire hand crew for a couple seasons I took a pretty serious interest in felling as a career. It'll probably be another couple years before I'm able to hop into that field as I'm also interested in becoming a better climber and pursuing that first, but from the bit of research I did into the field I've been starting to wonder where exactly ballers get their initial experience from.

After contacting a few logging outfits and looking into various other career options for hazard tree mitigation it seems as if most companies only contract or hire already decently experienced fallers instead of training within the company. I hear a lot in logging that it's also largely a family or close friend oriented type of career field as well where "outsiders" have a pretty small chance of finding pure falling positions.

Probably not something I'll have to be seriously concerned about for a little while and I'm still holding out for the chance that I just haven't contacted the right companies in the field or asked around enough. But when the time comes I'd like to know what avenues I have open to me I guess. I've heard carrying fuel for or shadowing loggers is one way to get experience so I'm thinking maybe that will be the way I'll have to break into the field once I finally make my way back out west.

I've taken an art of felling timber class in Oregon and plan to do a couple more in the future but after looking into the requirements for fallers who work on wildfires this doesn't seem like something I can afford to overestimate my skills in. Nor does it seem like there's many other ways to get experience other than actually being a faller with a logging outfit for some time or maybe finding one of those California crews that do fire breaks or cleanup.

Just looking for any and all advice I can get. I don't think there's been any job I've enjoyed as much as climbing or dropping trees. Thanks!

 

[singinwoodwackr]

I started reading…was given the Dent book by an old faller so that was the first. Then…practice, practice, practice.
I was never a pro…just a firewood cutter

To Fell a Tree A Complete Guide to Tree Felling and Woodcutting Methods https://a.co/d/4dCjO1E

Professional Timber Falling (Book) by Douglas Dent https://a.co/d/cg0joMk

The Fundamentals of General Tree Work: 25th Anniversary Edition https://a.co/d/6UzVKdH

 

[WannabeFireFaller]

I started reading…was given the Dent book by an old faller so that was the first. Then…practice, practice, practice.
I was never a pro…just a firewood cutter

To Fell a Tree A Complete Guide to Tree Felling and Woodcutting Methods https://a.co/d/4dCjO1E

Professional Timber Falling (Book) by Douglas Dent https://a.co/d/cg0joMk

The Fundamentals of General Tree Work: 25th Anniversary Edition https://a.co/d/6UzVKdH

Thanks for the recommendations! I have Roy Hauser's book and have made a hobby out of consuming tree work videos lately. I guess my biggest hangup is getting enough reps in in real life. I have plans to pick up side work where I can while working for this tree company so hopefully it all adds up to something meaningful.

 

[northmanlogging]

Username probably gives it away.

After working on a fire hand crew for a couple seasons I took a pretty serious interest in felling as a career. It'll probably be another couple years before I'm able to hop into that field as I'm also interested in becoming a better climber and pursuing that first, but from the bit of research I did into the field I've been starting to wonder where exactly ballers get their initial experience from.

After contacting a few logging outfits and looking into various other career options for hazard tree mitigation it seems as if most companies only contract or hire already decently experienced fallers instead of training within the company. I hear a lot in logging that it's also largely a family or close friend oriented type of career field as well where "outsiders" have a pretty small chance of finding pure falling positions.

Probably not something I'll have to be seriously concerned about for a little while and I'm still holding out for the chance that I just haven't contacted the right companies in the field or asked around enough. But when the time comes I'd like to know what avenues I have open to me I guess. I've heard carrying fuel for or shadowing loggers is one way to get experience so I'm thinking maybe that will be the way I'll have to break into the field once I finally make my way back out west.

I've taken an art of felling timber class in Oregon and plan to do a couple more in the future but after looking into the requirements for fallers who work on wildfires this doesn't seem like something I can afford to overestimate my skills in. Nor does it seem like there's many other ways to get experience other than actually being a faller with a logging outfit for some time or maybe finding one of those California crews that do fire breaks or cleanup.

Just looking for any and all advice I can get. I don't think there's been any job I've enjoyed as much as climbing or dropping trees. Thanks!

a little secret... i never fell for any logging outfits before starting my own company.
However, I my pre teen/teen years were spent helping my uncle and shadowing him on his logging jobs, as well as running a chainsaw since I was about 6.
That said, I didn't just run out and declare myself a "skilled" feller, I took a bunch of tree removal type weekend jobs, being very careful at all times, me and a buddy would fall em and take the firewood, but we had and still have one simple rule, if it doesn't feel safe, or either one of us doesn't like it, we stop, rethink and if still not confident, walk away.
A member here recommended D Douglas Dent's book, which steered me on the correct course for west coast timber falling, as well as being a damned good foundation for understanding what the tree does and why, (thank Gologit, 2Dogs, Randymac, Cederkerf, Tarzan, too many more to really remember...)


Anyhow, my adventures in firewood led me into more and more tree falling work, we were careful, and safe, which means more to most folks then being fast and cheap. One day we took a couple cords of firewood off my buddies friends place, he liked how we worked, so we did some more work for him, then a windstorm knocked down most of a load of logs, He called us to get them ready for the mill... That was my first load of logs sent (ironically on the log truck I now own) it took us 6 weeks... but since we didn't tear anything up, the next summer we thinned 2 acres near his house, this was an eye opener for me, as I built my gyppo yarder for this project and fell everything, falling for a yarder is different then falling for a skidder or shovel, it all has to go the right way or things become a total PITA to yard, one of the reasons not just every tom richard or harry gets to fall west coast timber, most of this wood ended up being sold as firewood, with some of the creamier stuff going to the mill (prices were way down, and this stuff was all pretty small).

By the end of this project, the landowner asked if we would be up to logging the rest of his property, 23 acers in total, so the money from that 2 acre thin, is what bought me the Missus (my skidder) and poof, I was in the logging business. By the end of that project, I'd already lined up 2-3 other logging projects, and really haven't had much time off since...

My point being you don't necessarily have to work for anyone else, but pay attention, be safe, and analyze every tree especially the ones that go wrong (I still do this) and you can become a skilled faller. Now days I'm doing less Falling, cause I have too much equipment... but I still get calls fairly often to tip timber, often times for other logging outfits, though I'm trying to do that less, as its more often then not a huge PITA and working with idiots gets old quick.. cause they don't understand the danger, or the risk I take... and to be honest I look back on some the the dumber S I did and cringe as well as wonder how the hell I survived it...


As for working on a fire line, that is literally just a matter of time, time on the saw doing the **** work of a fire line, you absolutely have to work your way up for that job, lives depend on you not being a complete noob, but like the logging thing prove yourself and those that matter will notice

My buddy is still in the tree work business, though he went and got old lol, so he's concentrating on his saw mill, we still work together now and then though hes more of the tree service type work, and I'm more interested in land clearing/logging. And I still have the Missus, as she was the ticket to making that first big job a success, and getting me more work to follow.

 

[WannabeFireFaller]

a little secret... i never fell for any logging outfits before starting my own company.
However, I my pre teen/teen years were spent helping my uncle and shadowing him on his logging jobs, as well as running a chainsaw since I was about 6.
That said, I didn't just run out and declare myself a "skilled" feller, I took a bunch of tree removal type weekend jobs, being very careful at all times, me and a buddy would fall em and take the firewood, but we had and still have one simple rule, if it doesn't feel safe, or either one of us doesn't like it, we stop, rethink and if still not confident, walk away.
A member here recommended D Douglas Dent's book, which steered me on the correct course for west coast timber falling, as well as being a damned good foundation for understanding what the tree does and why, (thank Gologit, 2Dogs, Randymac, Cederkerf, Tarzan, too many more to really remember...)


Anyhow, my adventures in firewood led me into more and more tree falling work, we were careful, and safe, which means more to most folks then being fast and cheap. One day we took a couple cords of firewood off my buddies friends place, he liked how we worked, so we did some more work for him, then a windstorm knocked down most of a load of logs, He called us to get them ready for the mill... That was my first load of logs sent (ironically on the log truck I now own) it took us 6 weeks... but since we didn't tear anything up, the next summer we thinned 2 acres near his house, this was an eye opener for me, as I built my gyppo yarder for this project and fell everything, falling for a yarder is different then falling for a skidder or shovel, it all has to go the right way or things become a total PITA to yard, one of the reasons not just every tom richard or harry gets to fall west coast timber, most of this wood ended up being sold as firewood, with some of the creamier stuff going to the mill (prices were way down, and this stuff was all pretty small).

By the end of this project, the landowner asked if we would be up to logging the rest of his property, 23 acers in total, so the money from that 2 acre thin, is what bought me the Missus (my skidder) and poof, I was in the logging business. By the end of that project, I'd already lined up 2-3 other logging projects, and really haven't had much time off since...

My point being you don't necessarily have to work for anyone else, but pay attention, be safe, and analyze every tree especially the ones that go wrong (I still do this) and you can become a skilled faller. Now days I'm doing less Falling, cause I have too much equipment... but I still get calls fairly often to tip timber, often times for other logging outfits, though I'm trying to do that less, as its more often then not a huge PITA and working with idiots gets old quick.. cause they don't understand the danger, or the risk I take... and to be honest I look back on some the the dumber S I did and cringe as well as wonder how the hell I survived it...


As for working on a fire line, that is literally just a matter of time, time on the saw doing the **** work of a fire line, you absolutely have to work your way up for that job, lives depend on you not being a complete noob, but like the logging thing prove yourself and those that matter will notice

My buddy is still in the tree work business, though he went and got old lol, so he's concentrating on his saw mill, we still work together now and then though hes more of the tree service type work, and I'm more interested in land clearing/logging. And I still have the Missus, as she was the ticket to making that first big job a success, and getting me more work to follow.

That's really insightful, man; thanks for responding! I'm planning right now to put my name out there on Craigslist, Facebook, etc for some felling centric side jobs while I learn to climb and see where it takes me. Gonna accept that the fire stuff will take some time and rightly so.

I managed to convince someone to let me drop a few small trees on their property a couple months ago so hopefully I can continue that streak. Been watching a ton of Billy Ray and Bjarne Butler myself.

 

[northmanlogging]

That's really insightful, man; thanks for responding! I'm planning right now to put my name out there on Craigslist, Facebook, etc for some felling centric side jobs while I learn to climb and see where it takes me. Gonna accept that the fire stuff will take some time and rightly so.

I managed to convince someone to let me drop a few small trees on their property a couple months ago so hopefully I can continue that streak. Been watching a ton of Billy Ray and Bjarne Butler myself.

Billy Ray is a nut, but a damned good faller
Hotsaws101
TarzanThomas are also good channels to look into


Look into getting insured and licensed before you stick your neck out too far, its not necessarily required state by state, but its relatively cheap and will show clients you can be trusted to some extent. Far Far too many "tree services" out there have neither ins, or credentials of any kind. Bonding isn't really any damned good but some states require it depending on what type of license you go after, its really just an added expense that has been lawyered into impotence for all sides.

 

[snobdds]

I bought a bunch of land in the middle of a national forest that the previous owner thought was destroyed because of the pine beetle. His loss, my gain.

I had to learn real quick how to cut a tree down. The first one I did was a clown show, but each one I got better at. After the 200th or so tree...I felt pretty confident on how to drop a tree.

It was a steep learning curve and luckily I could learn without a lot of structures around to worry about.

Like was said. I learned from watching Bucking Billy Ray. I had to endure his shtick, but he is really good about dropping trees. He is also the smoothest person I've ever seen on a saw. Just seek out the lessons and do it.

 

[Lightning Performance]

Many of us learned as kids cutting or felling doing firewood or how to run a chainsaw. The climbing thing for me also came from stuff we did as kids. Tree stands were easier to build with climbing gear. Once your comfortable with tools and rigging then it gets dangerous. Had my older cousin teach me how to rig, he was a millwork type guy who dealt with machine rebuilds like Hersey candy factory in PA for our local something union. He was my best bet to learn rigging and working at the local junkyard plus growing up at a towing outfit and street rod shop while working for serveral others at times. Did towing and large equipment repair so lifting heavy loads is common place. This placed me in the prefect position to do tree work for myself once my back was blown out. Now done was my days of tuning and building mean engines was pretty much over at a young age. You never stop doing mechanical and builds but you look for easier ways then bending over the fenders at the track tuning cars. I tuned cars and toys for years then went climbing after my kiln repair bussiness crash in 2009-10. Soon after I did a part time tree buss but the rigging and agility brought me the real money. Start small and stay away from structure. Once you can rig you'll figure out things fast. As you move up your skills will rapidly improve to a point you never thought possible. Being on your A game and clearing your mind will be the best advice I can give you. Tree work or removals requires 100% of your attention and forethought. If your not looking to become a statistic walk away when your game isn't up to par be it the job or the day just walk away. I've watched tired climbers get hurt because they were coming off of a flu or hangovers, stupid! Felling is the same game. Once you start there is no turning back so stay on your A game.

Distractions get people hurt or worse, fact. Tired is a distraction. Unprepared or uncomfortable gear, same. Nothing else should matter but your task at hand. You'll figure out who your mentor is by doing it more and more. Just don't get tunnel vision and fixate on anyone person or experience. Be flexible and know when to just walk away. No shame in living another day.

 

[singinwoodwackr]

Of course, dropping the tree is just the first step with dozens of possible pitfalls.
once it’s on the ground, then what? For straight poles it isn’t too hard to figure out stress points and not get the saw stuck.
But, drop a “bush” like tree and the engineering project begins. Drop one of these at 4’ diameter and all sorts of questions come up. Those are my favorite

 

[singinwoodwackr]

Here ya go...
4' diameter, 100' tall Euch takes out 3 other trees in the 3' range and falls into 2 others still standing.
Where do you start?

Big branches at 15'+ above the ground...a complet tangle...

 

[ericm979]

When I was on the fire line with USFS in the '80s, fellers had seconds working with them on the line. They helped out and spotted but didn't run the saw. If that's not changed or your agency does that you could try for one of those positions with an eye to moving up to sawyer later. Try talking to crew bosses and applying for positions that come up.

When I was applying to government natural resource jobs someone told me to put EVERYTHING I'd ever done in my application. My paper SF-171 was like 20 pages long. I got my first fire job on a tanker crew because I'd included my personal motorcycle rebuilding experience. My first job was to build up our truck that arrived stripped. The foreman didn't know how to do that stuff but I did. When the snow melted and it was time to go thinning they pointed me at the saw shed full of parts and said to go build yourself a saw. I did and it ran all season. Since I could build stuff I had enough cred that the guys would teach me the woods skills I lacked.

Later on I got a job with USFS R5 that involved a lot of tree climbing. I got that because I'd put down my sport rock climbing experience. I had zero experience in trees but the first person they hired for the position turned out to be afraid of heights and unable to do the work. The phone interview was all about climbing. First day on the job they had me in a tree just to make sure.

If you are willing to move that'll be a big advantage since a lot of people are tied to a location by family.

 

[WannabeFireFaller]

I bought a bunch of land in the middle of a national forest that the previous owner thought was destroyed because of the pine beetle. His loss, my gain.

I had to learn real quick how to cut a tree down. The first one I did was a clown show, but each one I got better at. After the 200th or so tree...I felt pretty confident on how to drop a tree.

It was a steep learning curve and luckily I could learn without a lot of structures around to worry about.

Like was said. I learned from watching Bucking Billy Ray. I had to endure his shtick, but he is really good about dropping trees. He is also the smoothest person I've ever seen on a saw. Just seek out the lessons and do it.

Thanks! Always thinking about buying some cheap land just so I can practice cutting on it but then I might just be removing trees for no good reason haha

 

[WannabeFireFaller]

Many of us learned as kids cutting or felling doing firewood or how to run a chainsaw. The climbing thing for me also came from stuff we did as kids. Tree stands were easier to build with climbing gear. Once your comfortable with tools and rigging then it gets dangerous. Had my older cousin teach me how to rig, he was a millwork type guy who dealt with machine rebuilds like Hersey candy factory in PA for our local something union. He was my best bet to learn rigging and working at the local junkyard plus growing up at a towing outfit and street rod shop while working for serveral others at times. Did towing and large equipment repair so lifting heavy loads is common place. This placed me in the prefect position to do tree work for myself once my back was blown out. Now done was my days of tuning and building mean engines was pretty much over at a young age. You never stop doing mechanical and builds but you look for easier ways then bending over the fenders at the track tuning cars. I tuned cars and toys for years then went climbing after my kiln repair bussiness crash in 2009-10. Soon after I did a part time tree buss but the rigging and agility brought me the real money. Start small and stay away from structure. Once you can rig you'll figure out things fast. As you move up your skills will rapidly improve to a point you never thought possible. Being on your A game and clearing your mind will be the best advice I can give you. Tree work or removals requires 100% of your attention and forethought. If your not looking to become a statistic walk away when your game isn't up to par be it the job or the day just walk away. I've watched tired climbers get hurt because they were coming off of a flu or hangovers, stupid! Felling is the same game. Once you start there is no turning back so stay on your A game.

Distractions get people hurt or worse, fact. Tired is a distraction. Unprepared or uncomfortable gear, same. Nothing else should matter but your task at hand. You'll figure out who your mentor is by doing it more and more. Just don't get tunnel vision and fixate on anyone person or experience. Be flexible and know when to just walk away. No shame in living another day.

Super solid advice, thanks! Not something I can afford to put half ass effort into.

 

[WannabeFireFaller]

Here ya go...
4' diameter, 100' tall Euch takes out 3 other trees in the 3' range and falls into 2 others still standing.
Where do you start?

Big branches at 15'+ above the ground...a complet tangle...
View attachment 1056316View attachment 1056317View attachment 1056318

Oh it'd be fun working that out

Probably start by checking damage on those two standing trees to make sure they aren't going to come down and clearing up all the broken and easily removable pieces on the ground, testing forces on different branches to see what more pieces can be removed without making the situation more dangerous. Start trying to see what parts you can piece down, maybe invest in a pole saw. Haha I'd have to be there in person to be sure.

 

[chilipeppermaniac]

I bought a bunch of land in the middle of a national forest that the previous owner thought was destroyed because of the pine beetle. His loss, my gain.

I had to learn real quick how to cut a tree down. The first one I did was a clown show, but each one I got better at. After the 200th or so tree...I felt pretty confident on how to drop a tree.

It was a steep learning curve and luckily I could learn without a lot of structures around to worry about.

Like was said. I learned from watching Bucking Billy Ray. I had to endure his shtick, but he is really good about dropping trees. He is also the smoothest person I've ever seen on a saw. Just seek out the lessons and do it.

I am from the East USA and Billy Ray has taught me a shid ton.
Before I saw him, I saw an excellent how to by Husqvarna, I will try to find it.

 

[chilipeppermaniac]

 

[chilipeppermaniac]

 

[HumBurner]

Maybe @firekindler would want to chime in here....?


Swamping for a contract-faller is a good way to learn. Explore hotshot crews or other outfits.


A former crew-member now works as a hotshot/faller. I'm sure he's honed his skills over the years and gotten his ego in check, but it's hard to believe he's doing the hazard work they do.

 

[markle]

If you feel you would benefit from formal training, two organizations that offer chainsaw specific felling classes are Safety and Woods Worker (SAWW) or Forest Industry Safety Training Alliance (FISTA) . I did not work in the industry, but help landowners with managed forestry requirements such as timber stand improvement by hardwood/conifer thinning. I process firewood and ran a hobby sawmill for many years. FISTA training was based off the Soren Eriksson Game of Logging original classes, and has 4 levels. I got up to level 3, and each level builds upon the previous one. Formal training can never hurt, and never replace the experience needed to have the lowest risk and safest plan for every tree. No plan has zero risk, and as others have said, sometimes the plan is to say Nah, no way…and walk away From that tree. It’s an easy decision when you consider what you could lose. I once cut an acre of 8-14 inch ash for the firewood, asking no money from the landowner. One bigger dia tree was leaning 45 degrees, in the direction it needed to go…but I walked away because I could not be certain it wouldn’t barber chair. top weight heavy load of branches; dying from the borer; was it punky inside… My risk calculation in the noggin based on my experience and skill said “don’t do it”. To help the landowner, I hired a bucket truck service to chunk it top to bottom. Good luck/cut safe.

 

[Robert K Meyer]

And some more resources:

BC Faller Training Standard
https://www.youtube.com/user/WorkSafeBC/search?query=chainsawhttps://www.youtube.com/user/WorkSafeBC/search?query=fallerhttps://www.worksafebc.com/en/resou...oks-guides/bc-faller-training-standard/part-1https://www.worksafebc.com/en/resou...oks-guides/bc-faller-training-standard/part-2