Welcome to ArboristSite.com! Log in or Sign up to interact with the ArboristSite community.

ArboristSite.com Sponsors
 
 


  1. Please see this post Click Here Please ask questions if you have them!! I hope this is going to be great for us all.
    Dismiss Notice

What is the real speed penalty with "safety" chain?

Discussion in 'Chainsaw' started by brages, Mar 3, 2009.

  1. brages

    brages Addicted to ArboristSite

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2008
    Messages:
    1,026
    Likes Received:
    85
    Location:
    StL
    Hi folks.

    I see a lot of posters here talk about getting rid of that safety chain. I don't quite understand it. Except for dropping a tree or limb on yourself, a kickback is the most dangerous thing that can happen when you're sawing. And users are commonly advised to wear chaps, helmet, etc.

    I know that safety chain isn't "safe" - it will still cut you. But it is designed to reduce the risk and severity of kickback. Similar to the oft-recommended PPE that is designed to reduce the risk and severity of injury. Why not run safety chain?

    It is argued that you don't need low-kickback chain, you just need to be careful with your bar tip. Well, you don't need a chain brake either, you just need to be careful. And you certainly don't need chaps, just be careful. Etc...

    Finally, I wonder how much slower safety chain really is. I can't find a good actual comparison out there anywhere. I'm surprised someone who likes to post videos of cookie-cutting hasn't done a green vs. yellow faceoff...

    I think the speed difference for regular cutting shouldn't be much with a modern sefety chain with ramped drive links (not ramps on the tie straps or whatever those links are called). If you just look at the saw, the ramps are pretty much tucked in under the depth gauges until the chain goes around the bar tip. I know safety chain isn't supposed to be good in bore cutting, but most folks dont' bore cut very much, and Stihl does claim that their new safety chain has "improved bore cutting efficiency".

    Also, there's that new Oregon Vanguard stuff, supposed to cut pretty good...
     
    Philbert and Woodie like this.
  2. 056 kid

    056 kid Addicted to ArboristSite

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2004
    Messages:
    6,317
    Likes Received:
    693
    Location:
    lynchburg VA/ Brookings OR
    If you spendtime with your bar buried it will suck.


    todays chain is safty chain compared to chains and of yesterday.
     
  3. gilraine

    gilraine ArboristSite Guru

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2008
    Messages:
    673
    Likes Received:
    97
    Location:
    norwich, ct
    when I went from RMC3 to RSC on my old MS290, I figured the saw cut between 15-20% faster..it is a marked difference.. I can also say that RMC3 is about useless in a bore cut.
     
  4. K9-Handler

    K9-Handler ArboristSite Operative

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2008
    Messages:
    255
    Likes Received:
    32
    Location:
    Western Connecticut
    Consider the source.

    AS is the land of chainsaw enthusiasts. Enthusiasts in their enthusiasm are, by definition, never satisfied with the mediocre. We won't even leave our mufflers alone, fer chrisakes.

    So you are advocating we should all ditch our pro chain and use safety chain. I gotta tell ya, it's more than seconds on a stopwatch. Running safety chain is boring (not literally...), while with pro chain there is a distinct satisfaction of pulling the trigger and having the saw pull hard forward as it takes a bite. It's like the thrust in your back from a strong V-8 engine. It's a key component of a grin-machine.

    Putting safety chain on a hot saw would be like running bias-ply truck tires on your 911 Turbo. It just don't make any sense...

    :greenchainsaw::clap::chainsaw:
     
  5. brages

    brages Addicted to ArboristSite

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2008
    Messages:
    1,026
    Likes Received:
    85
    Location:
    StL
    I figure my car rides 10% smoother after an oil change... where's the proof?
     
  6. kstill361

    kstill361 ArboristSite Operative

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2006
    Messages:
    336
    Likes Received:
    58
    Location:
    Illinois

    Dont know about your ride , but all you need is big wood and a stopwatch to answer your first question.
     
  7. 056 kid

    056 kid Addicted to ArboristSite

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2004
    Messages:
    6,317
    Likes Received:
    693
    Location:
    lynchburg VA/ Brookings OR
    nice try but not even close..
     
  8. taplinhill

    taplinhill Addicted to ArboristSite

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2007
    Messages:
    2,347
    Likes Received:
    1,037
    Location:
    Vermont
    If you want to run safety chain, go ahead and run it. Nobody is stopping you. If you want to hear that your choice is correct answer for everybody, I believe you have come to the wrong place.
     
    jburlingham and Dok like this.
  9. Brian VT

    Brian VT Addicted to ArboristSite

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2008
    Messages:
    3,170
    Likes Received:
    329
    Location:
    VT
    Maybe this weekend I'll run some cookies with my 72DP vs. Vanguard on video.
     
  10. Urbicide

    Urbicide Addicted to ArboristSite

    Joined:
    May 29, 2006
    Messages:
    3,816
    Likes Received:
    866
    Location:
    Cincinnati OH
    I do some bore cutting. Might as well try to cut with the chain on backwards than to use "safety" chain. The name probably lulls some folks into a false sense of security. After all, it is "safe". :chainsawguy:
     
  11. brages

    brages Addicted to ArboristSite

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2008
    Messages:
    1,026
    Likes Received:
    85
    Location:
    StL
    I don't want to hear that my choice is correct for everbody, I just want a quantitative answer. What's the speed penalty? I'm trying to decide what "my choice" actually is...
     
  12. BlackCatBone

    BlackCatBone ArboristSite Guru

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2008
    Messages:
    511
    Likes Received:
    122
    Location:
    West Fork, AR
    Besides the boring cuts suffering, safety chain is more massive too with all the extra "shark fins", bumper links, etc. It is effectively taking hp off your saw, and even if its just a bit, homey don't play that here!

    Agree the best protection is to maintain good foot position, balance, and a firm grip with both hands.
     
  13. brages

    brages Addicted to ArboristSite

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2008
    Messages:
    1,026
    Likes Received:
    85
    Location:
    StL
    I need a new chain of each type, in order to make it fair... OK, when I need a new chain, I'll buy one of each type... be advised: most of you will probably be dead by then... :dizzy:
     
  14. computeruser

    computeruser Addicted to ArboristSite

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    6,455
    Likes Received:
    2,483
    Location:
    East Lansing, MI
    They don't? Shoot, guess I missed the memo. I do it all the time, especially when blocking up logs that are piled on one another, or where leaving a little holding strip can keep a cut from closing up, or when dealing with tangled/twisted/torqued blowdowns. Heck, I think that a good 1/3 of the logs in this pile were bore cut, and they were piled up along the side of my driveway!

    [​IMG]

    Though I can see your point - why take unnecessary risks - I think that the issue is about risk management, not risk elimination. Yes, some "low kickback" chains are nicer to work with than others. Some downright suck at doing much of anything. But they're all dangerous, really.

    The argument "but we wear chaps" and "but we like chainbrakes" is silly. Do you wear 9+ layer chaps? Do you wear TWO pairs of full-wrap chaps at once? Chainsaw boots? Chainsaw gloves? At some point, you have drawn the line where you feel the safety tradeoff makes the most sense to you. If someone else chooses to draw that line in a different spot, so what?

    As for the speed difference, assuming you're buying 3/8" chain, buy a loop of semi-chisel, round-chisel, and square-chisel. The difference will be pretty evident. Add in some safety features, especially on a longer bar, and you'll see the difference as being even more pronounced once you have chip clearance issues to contend with, too.


    OMG, more bore cutting!
    [​IMG]

    EDIT: Videos!

    Safety chain:
    [​IMG]

    Not safety chain:
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2009
    Woodie likes this.
  15. RAYINTOMBALL

    RAYINTOMBALL Addicted to ArboristSite

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2007
    Messages:
    5,635
    Likes Received:
    37,243
    Location:
    TEXAS
    :monkey::monkey::monkey::monkey::givebeer::givebeer::givebeer:
     
  16. Kemper

    Kemper ArboristSite Operative

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2009
    Messages:
    412
    Likes Received:
    52
    Location:
    Southeast


    Yea, i think "you" should stick with safety chain...
     
  17. Kemper

    Kemper ArboristSite Operative

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2009
    Messages:
    412
    Likes Received:
    52
    Location:
    Southeast

    Safety chain is probably 20 to 30% slower in the cut than full chisel...
     
  18. brages

    brages Addicted to ArboristSite

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2008
    Messages:
    1,026
    Likes Received:
    85
    Location:
    StL
    I'm am not trying to argue with where you draw the line; I just want some facts to make an informed decision on. If I choose to wear a double layer of chaps, it's pretty easy to know what I'm giving up in terms of comfort. But I want to know how much speed I'm giving up by going with a green chain. In a perfect world, I'd like to see how much a low-kickback chain reduces kickback (will a potential kickback be 80% as strong on a green chain, or 20%?) and I'd like to know if the safety-chain penalty is equal across the board, or if small saws suffer more (or less) from using safety chain -- but that seems like too much to ask!
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2009
    Dok likes this.
  19. Brian VT

    Brian VT Addicted to ArboristSite

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2008
    Messages:
    3,170
    Likes Received:
    329
    Location:
    VT
    I'll weigh them (72V, 72DP) to see the difference too.
    I am suprised no head-to-head comparisons have been done here.
     
  20. kstill361

    kstill361 ArboristSite Operative

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2006
    Messages:
    336
    Likes Received:
    58
    Location:
    Illinois
    Well if you dont cut anymore than the use of one chain in my lifetime, why are you worried about speed over safety?:monkey:
     

Share This Page