What makes a perfect flipline???

[NickfromWI]

Hello Tree People...
A couple of guys have asked me to make flip-lines for them. One wants a 3-strand, one wants Braided-Safety Blue. Both are using aluminum locking snaps purchased from BlueRidge Arborist Supply. What I was wondering is...what are the things that you think make a perfect flipline? Steel snap or aluminum? long or short? eye on both ends? mechanical ascender or friction hitch? 3-strand or braided line? what else....so many options!!!

love
nick

 

[Tim Gardner]

I spliced eyes in both ends of my 10’ Pro Stripe 16 strand flip line. I use a Microcender and aluminum carabiner. I love the setup. It is a lot lighter than my 10’ double braid and my 10’ steel core. I have been trimming trees on the same job for two days now and do not miss the weight of the steel core.

 

[treeclimber165]

Unlike most here, I like the 4'-7' adjustable buckstrap (Sherrill #15237, page 16). I replaced the floating snap on one end with a biner, but I like the steel locking snap on one end for flipping around a lead. I used 3 strand lanyards for years, but now find the 16 strand lasts a lot longer. I will probably go to a longer flipline with a Gibbs ascender on my next shopping binge, but I think I will stick with the steel clip so I can flip it easier.

I have a lifeline with an alum. snap spliced on one end, and it is about impossible to flip it over a limb without balling it up into a monkey's fist. The snap is too light to carry the rope back to me.

 

[Tim Gardner]

Originally posted by treeclimber165
Unlike most here, I like the 4'-7' adjustable buckstrap (Sherrill #15237, page 16). I replaced the floating snap on one end with a biner, but I like the steel locking snap on one end for flipping around a lead. I used 3 strand lanyards for years, but now find the 16 strand lasts a lot longer. I will probably go to a longer flipline with a Gibbs ascender on my next shopping binge, but I think I will stick with the steel clip so I can flip it easier.

I have a lifeline with an alum. snap spliced on one end, and it is about impossible to flip it over a limb without balling it up into a monkey's fist. The snap is too light to carry the rope back to me.

Brian,

Just a few questions. Why use that kind of lanyard? It takes two hands to adjust it and most times you have to reach around to the back side of the tree.

What do you like about the Gibbs better than the Petzl? The Gibbs weighs twice what the Petzl does and it costs more. I have not used a Gibbs but there must be something about it that is better to pay more for it and carry more weight. Does the Gibbs come with a bolt to replace the pin?

Are you using your climbing line to spike up large diameter removals? That lanyard does not adjust very long and when you get into the top it does not adjust down short.

Are you able to get your climbing line to pull through a FC with the snap spliced on it or do you install your line in it backwards and pull the standing part out?

Why is it so hard for people to flip a lanyard around a spar with a carabiner on the end? I do it all the time and have no problem with it. I have noticed you have to flip the heavy steel clips harder to get them around the tree.


I am not trying to be a hard a$$. I am just curious.

 

[treeclimber165]

Tim- I'll try my best to answer.
"Why use that kind of lanyard? It takes two hands to adjust it and most times you have to reach around to the back side of the tree." -- Most times that I'm putting my lanyard on, I'm holding on to the trunk. When I flip the lanyard around, the adjustment is usually right next to my hand instead of down by my side. I have no problem adjusting it out and holding on at the same time.

"What do you like about the Gibbs better than the Petzl? The Gibbs weighs twice what the Petzl does and it costs more. I have not used a Gibbs but there must be something about it that is better to pay more for it and carry more weight. Does the Gibbs come with a bolt to replace the pin?"-- I don't know, I have never owned either. The sherrill catalog showed a flipline setup with the Gibbs ascender. I'd like to see both with my own two eyes and feel them with my own two paws before deciding which to buy.

"Are you using your climbing line to spike up large diameter removals? That lanyard does not adjust very long and when you get into the top it does not adjust down short."-- I'm rarely on wood larger than 4' DBH. My lanyard reaches just fine around 3'+ DBH. I can't recall the last time my lanyard was too short. On very large removals, I set a line above the first main crotch, ascend to there without a lanyard (or use a ladder), then put my lanyard on and spike up from there.
On tops less than 4", I take a wrap with my lanyard. It holds me just fine, and gives a better distribution of weight on skinny tops.

"Are you able to get your climbing line to pull through a FC with the snap spliced on it or do you install your line in it backwards and pull the standing part out?"-- Call me a hack, I don't own a false crotch. Thinking of making one, probably will soon. I've only used one a couple times, many years ago. It got stuck trying to remove it, it got left in the tree.

"Why is it so hard for people to flip a lanyard around a spar with a carabiner on the end?"-- Around a spar is no problem. Try flipping a rope with a spliced alum snap (or an alum biner) over an overhead limb 10' away, and shake the snap back down to you.

 

[treeclimber165]

Dear Lovey,

What makes a 'perfect' lanyard depends greatly on the climber and his climbing style. What works perfectly for one climber can be totally wrong for the next climber. If there were one perfect lanyard, we wouldn't need to discuss it.

 

[Tim Gardner]

Thanks for the reply Brian. Like I said I was not trying to be a hard a$$. Different people have different styles and I like to read about them. This old dog has changed his style many times after learning a different way.

I think you will really dig a 10’ 16 strand flip line. It will adjust down very short or long when positioning your self while trimming. Sometimes after getting myself into position I need a little more or less length and the one hand adjustment means I don’t have to lower my 020 onto its lanyard or holster my hand saw.

Now that you are using an advanced hitch you need to get a FC. While limb walking in a live oak the bark will give me a hard time feeding slack or taking it up. The FC makes it real smooth.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

I like a long lanyard, with an aluminum rope snap spliced on one end, an eye on the other end, and adjusted with a VT and fair lead.

The ascenders only move one way with weight on them. I used a gibbs for several years until I learned how to tie a VT, man what an improvement. I never liked the miro ascender because it didn't fit well on arborist ropes, and found that 7/16" static type ropes did not last long.
I also tried the petzel grillion and found it worked better than the ascenders, but not nearly as nice as the VT.
Using a distal has the advantage of double end use, but it is harder to pull slack than the VT, so I don't use that any more.
I think steel snaps are dangerous in that they can hit you after a flip. I also think steel core fliplines became popular out west, where more climbers seem to use only one tie in point when working up spars. For proper modern climbing, the steel is unnecessary.

My question for Brian is if your lanyard is only 7' long, which is a maximum 3.5' reach, why would you need a steel weight to throw your line 3.5 feet???

And the biggest spar you can go around is about 26", if my math is right.

 

[Mahk]

I too like a 'Beraneck' adjustable lanyard--but mainly for pruning. I don't like things hanging loose below my feet. I made the Beraneck so that I can put it over my shoulder when it is in the closed position and it is out of the way. But again I use this mainly for pruning when I don't need to constantly adjust the length of the lanyard. A longer lanyard gets hung up in my feet and gets hung up on branches as I descend. I have to continually thread it through limbs or risk having the end flip off the limb and hit me in the head.

When doing removals I do like a longer lanyard with an ajustment at the side.

Nick, if you make the lanyard with large spliced eyes at each end it will give you maximum flexibility for a side-adjustable lanyard. You can girth hitch a snap or krab at either or both ends and use any type of mechanical or rope adjuster. You could have it double ended (a 2 'n 1) or if you like single ended you could use one end for a time and then switch the snap (or krab) to the other end so that the rope wears evenly.

One note of technique: if you use a 2 'n 1 lanyard use a key chain krab w/brass swivel as a slack tender, rather than a key chain krab w/ a micro pulley. This will make it easier to take the slack tender on and off as you need to.

Also a 2 'n 1 is, as the name implies, one piece of rope. Using both ends does not constitute two means of attachment when using a chain saw.

A steel core flip line is not chain saw proof. Don Blair (Sierra Moreno) and Dave Anderson (Bartlett) have done tests and both report cutting through a steel core in less than a second.

I think I have 8 or ten different types of lanyards right now, steel core, three strand, sixteen strand and leather strap (!) I have a Gibbs, a Microjuster (now called 'Micrograb'--this has a bolt; the Microscender has a two stage sping-loaded pin; Macrograb -scender are the respective larger versions of these), a Grillion and various friction hitches. I have the Beraneck that can be put out of the way over my shoulder, several medium sized ones, and a 20 foot one for big wood and crane removals. I use aluminum snaps, steel snaps, scew links and various types of krabs and find a use for all of these. Don Roppollo and I gave a 45 minute talk on lanyards at TCI, and that wasn't enough time to cover everything. I agree, there is no perfect lanyard to fit all trees for all people. Or even all trees for one person.

Mahk

 

[treeclimber165]

Originally posted by Mike Maas
My question for Brian is if your lanyard is only 7' long, which is a maximum 3.5' reach, why would you need a steel weight to throw your line 3.5 feet???

And the biggest spar you can go around is about 26", if my math is right.

First, I stated that my alum snap was on my LIFELINE, not my lanyard. I also said that I will probably be changing to the type of setup you two use on my next shopping splurge. My gut feeling is that I would be happier with a steel snap on my lanyard after using an alum. snap on my LIFELINE. Simply personal preference.

As to the size spar I can reach around with my lanyard, you are not considering the fact that my side D rings are about 18" apart, not connected to each other. I have also been known to clip one side to one of my center D rings (or both D-rings, one on each side) which gives me another foot on large spars. I also use my lifeline as a lanyard when blocking down wood too fat for my lanyard. Otherwise I'm tied in from above.

How many more times do I have to say that I'm willing to try another lanyard setup before you two quit giving me grief over the type of lanyard I've used for 15 years (and is the only type of lanyard I've ever seen in person being used)? Remember, I only gave up my Tautline hitch a little over 2 months ago! AND I could probably STILL outclimb you, or at least give you a run for your money!

 

[Tim Gardner]

Originally posted by treeclimber165
I have also been known to clip one or both sides to my center D rings which gives me another foot on large spars.

I have to back Brian on this one. It has been a while since I have used a buttstrap style saddle but now I remember using the center dees back when I was using a pole strap to get up those fat trees.

 

[Tim Gardner]

Originally posted by Mahk
I too like a 'Beraneck' adjustable lanyard--but mainly for pruning. I don't like things hanging loose below my feet. I made the Beraneck so that I can put it over my shoulder when it is in the closed position and it is out of the way. But again I use this mainly for pruning when I don't need to constantly adjust the length of the lanyard. A longer lanyard gets hung up in my feet and gets hung up on branches as I descend. I have to continually thread it through limbs or risk having the end flip off the limb and hit me in the head.


Mahk

Mahk,

Brian had mentioned a while back how the long lanyard hangs down and gets tangled and I agree with both of you. However, I feel the one hand adjustments and the longer length are worth the trouble.

How are you able to do pruning without adjusting your lanyard? Every time I get in position on a limb walk I have to adjust my lanyard so I can be “locked” into the right spot to make cuts or use a pole pruner.

 

[NickfromWI]

I agree

Like 165 said, there is no such thing as the "Perfect" anything...However that does not mean it's not worth talking about. As the other posters have shown, there are a lot small details that can be shared. This is how we get new and great ideas! Otherwise, we end up still using a Beranek style lanyard after 15 years of training!

As far as the steel vs. aluminum...I've only used steel for a couple months, then everything was switched to aluminum. I never have problems flipping a snap or a carabiner around or down a branch. I guess you just gotta know how to work the rope.

Brian- I'll tell you what, as a Holiday Special, I will make you a flip line. I assume you have the slack-tender pulley. If you send me money to cover the supplies, I will splice you a 16strand with an eye on each end (and a steel or aluminum snap on one end, if you'd like!) as well as a single-braid prussik sling for the distel or schwabish. Let me know!!!

good discussion folks.

love
nick

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Since you will be able to make new lines for these people splicing the clip into the line with a tight eye is much better (IMO).

For most average climbers, a 10-20ft I&I with clips is good. A prussik adjuster for those with mopderate skill and distal/slacktender for those with a bit more.

I liek Tom's with the back to back tress hithces for two way control.

 

[NickfromWI]

Eye Splice Size

I agree JPS- I like a small eye for the side that has a snap on it. I prefer to put a small plastic thimble to distribute the wear. I've done a couple that used the small orange Petzl "POO" pulleys. I put the snap through the pulley, then splice it on! I think those little plastic black thimbles seem kinda cheap, though I've only had one totally deform on me.

These are the little things I wonder about.

love
nick

maybe, if i had a TV, I would just watch that, rather than think about things like how to get a orange Petzl pulley on to a snap-hook!

 

[Stumper]

like Brian, I used an adjustable buckstrap for ages (and liked it). Seldom was it too short. When up in the small wood on a spar I just made a full wrap. Now I'm using a flipline with friction hitch. I like the extra length and easy adjustment. I'm using 3 strand (because it's easy to splice). I have found 3 strand to be extremely long wearing but friction hitches tend to lock tighter under load. I've got two made up. One has steel snaps and the other alumnium. Frankly I still haven't decided which I prefer. Tom's idea of a hitch on each side sounds neat-I'll have to try it.

Mike,I've considered using the V.T. on the flipline. Any 'hitches' in using it in that application?

 

[xander9727]

I use a 10' steel core flip line. I use a prusic as an adjuster. I have a steel snap link on one end and an eye splice on the other. If I had my choice I would have a steel snap on both ends. I like to use my free end when manuvering around branches to provide an additional tie in point.

 

[Tree Machine]

That's an interesting thought, Xander. If I read you right, you sometimes use you steelcore flipline, you flip it around a limb and clip it back onto it own self (choker the limb), you've created an additional (nearby) tie-in point, but are clipped to one side of your saddle. If you had a snap on each end, you could work from either hip. I really like that Idea. Never seen a (steelcore) flipline with a safety snap at both ends, but why not?

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

That's kind funny TM, I've never heard of a lanyard <I>without </I>a snap at both ends. That's why the distal is popular, it works both ways for double ended operation.

Stumper, no hitches, the tail of my lanyard is clipped to my belt so even if it failed, which it never has, there is back up. It's a good way to test out new climbing hitches, before trusting your life on them or having them slow you down figuring them out. I always give new hitches a run on the lanyard for a couple weeks before useing them, or trashing them.

Nick, using a thimble can cause the snap to get stuck in tight crotchs more easily, just like the long eye which needs girth hitching does. Those Kong aluminum rope snaps work the best, imo.

 

[Bradley]

I use different lengths of 1/2" steel core with a Micrograb for climbing on hooks, it sure makes going up faster due to it's stiffness. I don't trust the cable for saw protection, but like it's stiffness. I ALWAYS use my lifeline as a second lanyard when acending if it is not positioned overhead and used as a ground belay. I also have some 35' 7/16" PMI max-wear lanyards for pruning. Makes for good 2nd TIP. Also have a couple 1/2" max-wear rope lanyards, 10 and 12' but don't use them much. When do you guys replace your steel core lines. The rope sheath fuzzes fairly quick but does not provide strength, does it matter?