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Wood processor build hydraulic questions

Discussion in 'Firewood, Heating and Wood Burning Equipment' started by Dieselb2487, Jul 22, 2018.

  1. Dieselb2487

    Dieselb2487 ArboristSite Lurker

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    Currently in the process of building my wood processor. I aquired a 52 inch circular slasher saw for a good price and that will be the base of it. Splitter will be a 5 inch 26 inch stroke ram on an 8x40 I-beam. I will be using a Ford 4.9 engine with a transmission to run two 1000 rpm pto pumps. Both pumps are 40 gpm. One pump will be dedicated to saw operation. That circuit I have figured out . My questions regarding the second circuit that will include the splitter, saw lift and lower ram, and a conveyor setup to move the logs under the saw. Since I cannot purchase a 40gpm valve that has a return detent can I use two 25gpm valves fed in parellel and then tie the pressure output sides together to run the cylinder for the splitter? I am unsure on the size of the motor required for the conveyor as there are so many options and don't know how big I would need. As I won't need 40 gpm on the saw lift or conveyor if I put smaller valves on them than the 40 gpm the pump is providing will it only let the valve use the fluid the valve can flow and the relief will let the rest of it back to the tank or do I need a different method of decreasing flow before the valve? I have a 100 gallon tank for hydraulic fluid also so plenty of fluid available and should stay relatively cool. An help is appreciated
     

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  2. Hddnis

    Hddnis Addicted to ArboristSite

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    Do you know that 40 gpm is enough to run the saw?

    You can buy valves with a detent for the return that will handle 40gpm, no you can't double up two smaller valves. Running all the other functions off one pump is going to take a well thought out design. Sometimes hydraulic shops will help you design the system if you are buying the parts from them. You are looking at several thousand dollars in parts to make all that run correctly. Part of what you are paying for is their knowledge of what works, in the long run if you can't design it yourself that is the cheaper option.
     
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  3. Dieselb2487

    Dieselb2487 ArboristSite Lurker

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    Yes 40 gpm should be enough to run the saw. Its max rating is 45 gpm so I don't think it will be an issue to run it. Do you have any links for valves. I have looked and seem to be able to find valves up to 30 gpm.
     
  4. muddstopper

    muddstopper Addicted to ArboristSite

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    I dont think your engine will be able to pull the two pumps at max pressure, assuming 3000psi. Those little engines dont make hp until about 3400rpms and then max out around 115-120hp for the older motors and 150 for the newest ones.
    1978 - 1986 • 101 hp @ 3,400 rpm • 115 hp @ 3,400 rpm • 117 hp @ 3,400 rpm • 120 hp @ 3,400 rpm 223 lb-ft @ 1,600 rpm
    1987 - 1993 145 hp @ 3,400 rpm 265 lb-ft @ 2,000 rpm
    1994 - 1996 150 hp @ 3,400 rpm 260 lb-ft @ 2,000 rpm
    It will take 155hp to pull the two 40gpm pumps to 3000psi. Now granted both pumps wont be under max psi output at the same time, but do you really want to hear that straight6 turning 3400rpms while working. Your pto pumps would have to be geared down to the 1000rpm range to compensate for the high engine rpms. What are the gear ratios of your transmission? 3speed or 4speed? One of the gears should be close to the 3.4:1 ratios you need and you can always reduce/fine tune, farther between the trans output and the pump imput

    Your question about using two control valves to handle the flow of one pump isnt a very good option. I havent seen, nor know of a CV with detent like a logsplitter valve, that will handle 40gpm. I guess someone does make one and if Hddnis does know of one, maybe he can post up a link. Parker makes a V40 series valve that will handle 45gpm. You can rig up a normal 3 position CV using a rod or other devise to kick the CV back to center on the return stroke and this would probably be cheaper than buying a high capacity valve with detent. You will also need a similar size CV for the saw motor and should be a motor spool CV so when the lever is released the saw can coast to a stop. A cyl spool control valve would create a heck of a shock load on the saw motor when the valve is shifted to center and most likely blow the seals out of the hyd saw motor or bust the CV itself.

    I am guessing you want to run the splittin cyl off of one of the pumps and everything else off the other pump. It might be easier to find a large v40 series multispool valve configured to do this. Proportioning and sequencing valves can be used to regulate oil flow and pressures to each operation as needed. Multispool stacked valves can be configured at each spool using screwed in cartridges to get what you want/need. A V40 stackable single spool cv will probably cost around $400 and each additional spool similar in cost.
     
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  5. Dieselb2487

    Dieselb2487 ArboristSite Lurker

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    Pumps are rated to 2250 psi. I can use either first or second gear in the trans to get 1000 rpm speed on the out put of the trans. 1st gear would need to run at 3000 rpm and 2nd would be 1800. Was hoping 2nd gear would be the ticket. One pump will be dedicated to saw function. Planned on using a 3 way ball valve rated for 5000 psi. I will have a check valve between inlet ports on hydraulic motor for saw so when the ball valve is switch to bypass it will allow the saw to coast. I figured this would be the most practical as the saw is simply getting put in an on position. I will look at the v40 valves. Thank you
     
  6. muddstopper

    muddstopper Addicted to ArboristSite

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    Let me ask you this. Do you already have the pto pumps laying around or are you going to have to buy new? If you are buying new, you might be able to go a cheaper route by buying a double pump, or even triple stack pump and make running your aux hyd a lot simpler. Not to mention getting rid of the power robbing transmission.
     
  7. ChoppyChoppy

    ChoppyChoppy Addicted to ArboristSite

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    Pto speed doesn't matter by Trans gear unless you are running off the output?? And not the normal PTO mount.
     
  8. ChoppyChoppy

    ChoppyChoppy Addicted to ArboristSite

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    150hp will handle 80gpm fine. Hell I have about 50gpm on 35hp.

    Figure it on running psi, not max... you'll not be at max on a processor aside from perhaps a few seconds.
     
  9. Ryan'smilling

    Ryan'smilling Addicted to ArboristSite

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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but those HP numbers are for the 4.9 in a truck application. Great motors, by the way. I've had one in my '90 f250 for the last 8 years. Anyway, I don't think it'll mind running at 3000 RPMs all day if you make it, but I don't think you can tune it for that much HP in a continuous duty application. Pickup motors are basically light duty, so they turn up the HP because the truck isn't under a heavy load for 20 straight hours. It's just like the Cummins 5.9; people turn them up to over 500 HP in a truck, but if it's in a tractor, on a pump, in a boat, etc they're probably under 200.

    There are tons of Ford 300s still running pumps, chippers, forklifts, etc. I don't know what kind of HP numbers they put out, but that's probably a good number to shoot for.
     
  10. ChoppyChoppy

    ChoppyChoppy Addicted to ArboristSite

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    The 82 Ford 300 in our 12k forklift us about 125hp.
     
  11. Dieselb2487

    Dieselb2487 ArboristSite Lurker

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    I have purchased the PTO pumps already. I was able to buy both pumps for right at 1000 bucks. My reasoning was the 1000 rpm shaft speed will give me the most flexibility with whatever I use to power them as long as I use a transmission. That comes in handy as well since I will have a clutch so engine will be able to be separated from pumps on initial startup. The 4.9 engine I currently have cost 100 bucks. Marine 5.9 engines were mostly rated at 370 hp. Big thing with continuous duty is keeping things cool. Picture shows both pumps. Shaft will be supported with a pillow block bearing and pumps will be mounted in a cradle. Shaft to pumps will come right off outputon transmission. That's my plan anyways.
     

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  12. muddstopper

    muddstopper Addicted to ArboristSite

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    Those straight six motors have been used in lots of different types of equipment over the years. They are tough little motors. As I said in my first post, you wont be running max flows and pressures all the time. Only if sawing and splitting at the same time will you ever see a max power spike. The 5in cyl @40gpm will have a cycle time of about 6-7 sec. Maybe a tad faster if your rod is bigger than 2in dia., but at 2250psi will only have a splitting power of about 22tons. You slasher saw is a already proven item and should work well with the 40gpm. I would like to know what the pressure requirement is @45gpm for the saw to operate properly. Are the controls for the saw already in place where all you need to do is connect the hyd hoses?

    The pto pumps wouldnt have been my first choice, but you run with what you brung. You seem to have a handle on how you will mount the pumps, so the things you need to figure out now is how may other functions you will need to operate and how to get the power to those functions. Make a list of all other functions and the order you wish to perform each operation then you can decide what kind and how many other CV you will need.

    Pump volume,(flow), is determined by the cuin provided with each revolution of the pump. The faster the pump turns, the more oil it will pump. The pto pumps are rated to pump 40gpm @ 1000rpms. If your pump is turning less than 1000rpms, you will not get the advertised flow numbers you are looking for. Turn the pump shaft faster than 1000rpms and you will get more than the advertised flow. To get the advertised flow numbers of your pump, your transmisson output shaft will need to be turning 1000rpms. I believe your intent is to direct couple the transmission to the pumps. If so, the final speed of the output shaft will be determined by the transmission final gearing and the rpms the engine is turning. Keep in mind, that without some sort of governor to regulate the speed of your engine, that rpms will decrease, and flows will be reduced, as pressure demands rise. Sawing and splitting at the same time will require about 116hp. This doesnt mean you engine will need to make that kind of hp all the time. It just means your engine will loadup and slow down for that split second that your max hp is needed.
     
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  13. kevin j

    kevin j Addicted to ArboristSite

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    Interesting project.
    Random thoughts.

    Pumps
    -Are these direct drive at 1000 rpm, or are they the PTO pumps with speed increaser gearbox bult in to increase speed? 1000 rpm pumps will be larger and not as efficient as turning at higher rpm, but you already have them.
    -40 gpm is at 1000 rated as Mudd noted. Adjust calculations for rpm, and figure maybe 85-90% maximum efficiency on flow.
    -If shaft drive pumps I would use U joints and drive shaft. Don’t use a pillow block as there will be side alignment issues. Those are only needed with side loads belt or chain drive.
    -How will you drive second pump? Splined shaft through the hollow bores? Alignment will be critical on the second one.

    VAlves 40 gpm
    -Look at surpluscenter.com for pumps and valves.
    -There are mobile valves of that size and larger, but don’t know about detents. Most will be pilot or electric operated, maybe a manual operator backup, but main control is remote.
    There are ways to use a sequence valve in the pilot operated circuit but that is more complicated than I can explain here.
    If electrical proportional control, you could use a limit switch in the return side to trip out the control of the valve.
    If you used a bang/bang solenoid, two stage valve, the electric pilot stage could be controlled by limit switch. But 45 gpm puts you in the D06 size.
    -45 gpm in a solenoid cartridge valve is easily doable. You will need the other speed and pressure controls separately. Look at Sun Hydraulics, HydraForce, Eaton/Modular Controls
    -The saw circuits will need a relief valve for acceleration control, and preferably a braking/anti caviation valve to slow it down smoothly and prevent motor cav on the driving side. Without some sort of braking it will spin a long time. Brake valve also adds emergency stop safety function.

    Small circuits
    -These are a problem.
    -It is easy to take small flow say 1 to 5 gpm off tyhe 40, to run conveyor and cylinders, with flow dividers, priority or proportional. You would need a gear divider though, not a spool divider. Gear divider transfers energy from the small, unloaded flow over to the main flow. Spool divider throttles pressure on the small side, when it is not used, and converts it to heat.
    -Both of those dividers rob flow from the main circuit, which slows the splitter cylinder. Basically, you are paying for energy and flow but not using it to do the splitting.
    -You could take the divided flow out, run into a smaller power beyond spool valve for conveyor and cylinders, when the cylinders are not being used, the ‘robbed’ flow from divider can go back via power beyond into the main flow and go on to the splitter.
    -Small circuit will be a heater, as it throttles energy. Cylinder, no big deal, as they are probably very intermittent use. The conveyor motor is a bigger deal, as to get (pick numbers) say 5 gpm at 1000 psi, the circuit will throttle all the unused energy continuously into heat. Not just of the 5 gpm but the other side of the circuit also. If not splitting, the other side of 35 gpm at 1000 psi will be converted to heat.

    -I would add a third pump, however you do it, sized to run the conveyor. 5 gpm? Guessing. Then use a small power beyond spool valve with motor spool for conveyor, several cylinder spools for the various cylinders. Run the conveyor as needed, with minimal heat in this circuit. Get your conveyor maximum speed determined with sprocket sizes and try to avoid throttling the oil flow. Flow controls convert energy to heat. Again, intermittent cylinder loads don’t produce much total heat but continuously running motors create heat all that time.
    Then take the power beyond outlet flow back into the main splitter cylinder circuit. I assume the conveyor would usually be running, so the PB won’t gain much then, But if coneyor is intermittent, the PB flow would speed up the splitter cylinder whenever the conveyor is not running.

    -This may not be popular, but I would look at a three section pump (or dual front section with rear pad, then a smaller third pump on the rear pad), run them right off the engine, with or without the clutch. Sell off the PTO pumps. Pumps would be smaller and more efficient and run them about 180” rpm. I think that may be cheaper and easier then the mechanical issues with the 1000 rpm pumps.

    - yes you will need a governor. Maybe an electronic aftermarket cruise control could be adapted to that I’m not sure. I know surpluscenter used to sell an external mechanical governor taken off off something that could be bolted to a bracket and run of the v belt for the alternator. Some linkage rigged up to the carburetor assuming it’s carbureted engine. that product was for sale quite a while ago so they may not have it anymore.


    I’ll think some more this weekend when I will be driving 4 hours each way. Keeps me awake !

    Kcj
     
  14. kevin j

    kevin j Addicted to ArboristSite

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    this just showed up on Mpls craigslist today. $500 in Wisconsin. might be $500 worth of parts in there that you, or someone else, might be able to use
     

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  15. muddstopper

    muddstopper Addicted to ArboristSite

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    I had one of them mowers, still got the boom, I actually mounted the cutter head on a small trackhoe. The hydraulic pumps are the throwaway type, Casappa brand. I forget the flow capacity, not much, and it used a accumulator to get the speed needed for the boom. The second pump was only about 1 or 2 gpm. Not much use for a processor. The Pto mount was a standard gear pump on a gear box to get the rpms up. I did used the pto pump on my uncles old tractor to power his fel. Worked good for that, but not much else. The valves also are not PB capable. I still have them if someone has a need. I believe one is a single spool and one a double or triple spool. Still got the boom and cyls, if someone needed to make a small Knuckle boom loader. Lift capacity would be about 500lbs or so, about what the cutter head of the mower weighed.
     
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  16. rarefish383

    rarefish383 Addicted to ArboristSite

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    A little knuckle boom on my dump trailer would be sweet. But, that's getting off topic. I'll save that project for another day.
     
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  17. muddstopper

    muddstopper Addicted to ArboristSite

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    come and get it if you want it
     
  18. Dieselb2487

    Dieselb2487 ArboristSite Lurker

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    The conveyor would not be continuous use. It will only be used intermittently to move the log under the saw. All the functions on the second circuit will all be operated individually. Nothing would have to be operated simultaneously. Just want to clarify that. Order of operations would be as follows. Log is on conveyor and saw arm is up. Saw is running since the first pump is providing flow. Conveyor moves log under saw. Hydraulic ram is operated to move saw down into log. Saw cuts log and it drops down onto splitter portion. I activate splitter ram and that runs its cycle. Then i raise the saw and the cycle starts over. I fully understand the stacked pumps but if you get into the higher gpm flows of the stacked pumps you have to provide a power source that is going to make that specific horsepower at that rpm. With the pto pumps they are direct drive at 1000 rpm you can use virtually any powersource available that you can mount a transmission to. I do understand the horsepower required to run a pump at psi as well but I will gain alot of mec
     
  19. NSMaple1

    NSMaple1 Addicted to ArboristSite

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    I have never used or owned a processor, but I think if I was going to I would want it to be able to do other things (maybe at least raise the saw back up & move the log ahead the next step) while it was splitting. A lot of them I have watched had all other operations stopped and waiting for it to split before carrying on again - that wait time seemed to be a big waste of potential to me.
     
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  20. Dieselb2487

    Dieselb2487 ArboristSite Lurker

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    I do get that but with a 6 second cycle time on the splitter the only thing I could really have time for would be raising the saw back up. Still trying to do this on a budget. My goal is to keep it at 5000 or less. Right now I am in it 3600 and have 90 Percent of everything I need to make that goal a reality. I emailed prince to see what they had available for valving and recommended layout. I was reading some more on hydraulics and if I was to aquire power beyond valves I would be able to use them in series. Still looking in the stacked valve options. Also found a valve that Bailey hydraulics carries that is 40 gpm. Calling today to find the specifics
     

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