Advanced log splitter plumbing question

[SemperFiSawguy]

After forum surfing for a few weeks unsuccessfully to answer my question and being told to pound sand by Splitez for answers. I have come back to ask if anyone can help me figure out how to size pilot ratio and cracking pressure requirments for a pilot to open check valve on my splitter build.
I originally ordered a parker CSPH161P-12P
With a parker CVH161P check valve. Specs on that are 50gpm with a 3:1 pilot ratio and a cracking pressure of 5psi. I have this valve in hand, but im not sure i want to try it and not be able to return it since im second guessing myself.

Is that to low of a cracking pressure? My concern is that during the extend stroke the port pressure will be over 5psi and be enough to send a pilot signal to the base port pilot operated check valve and bleed off pressure from my extend stroke.. or even create hammering with a shudder since the check valve could be potentially open and close repeatedly as pressure builds and drops off. Has anyone used that valve before in this application? Splitez sells a SUN ckgb-xcn valve and a standard ECN block rated for 30psi cracking pressure. Which makes me think i should have at a minimum 20psi to have the cracking pressure higher then what my return flow PSI is on my return circuit based on my filter gauge. Which never exceeds 15psi even with cold oil at WOT. My build thread is at this link at the bottom since im not sure how to attatch it.

Possible relevant figures if it helps get my questions answered,
22GPM pump
4.5 inch cylinder with 3 inch rod and 3/4 ports
Prince autocycle
All 3/4 work lines
1 inch to 1.5 inch and 80gpm filter head and return lines
Current return stroke backpressure from the base port is 180psi cold oil WOT on the pressure side
12-15 PSI return low pressure side via gauge on filter head for return stroke and 5ish PSI extend stroke.

My assumption is cracking pressure should be higher then possible extend stroke PSI on the rod side port but somehow still much lower then return stroke PSI WITH the check valve open and all oil bypassing directly to the return circuit. Trouble is i dont know what that available pilot pressure will be post valve activation. Until i plumb it in and try it.. Im not an engineer so im struggling to find examples or guidance for this exact application and my local hydraulic shop doesnt have an engineer on staff. I have not yet called parker for information. Only person ive called so far was splitez and he got all pissy and hung up because i knew his super top secret proprietary $50 valves part numbers that he sells for $200.

https://www.arboristsite.com/threads/log-splitter-modifications-build.372122/#post-8171447Thank you in advance for taking the time to read all that.

 

[rancher2]

Its been a while since I have installed a dump valve on a wood splitter. I think the first one I put on was probably fifteen years ago or so. Back then I did get that valve from James at Spliteze. Nice guy back then. From then on I normally bought parts off Ebay. It took some looking threw my hyd spare parts area but I found the box with the dump valve parts in it and the paper work I had wrote up. I have used the Sun hydraulics parts. The block part number is BAD 1CS5-AB and the cartridge part number is CKEB-XCN. The information I had on a sheet of paper said that cartridge has a 30 PSI cracking pressure 3:1 ratio 30 GPM flow. I am no engineer either but we installed several of these set ups and they worked. I am sure you can go to sun hydraulics and check the specs. The blocks we used had 3/4 NTP working ports and 3/8 pilot port.

 

[SemperFiSawguy]

Its been a while since I have installed a dump valve on a wood splitter. I think the first one I put on was probably fifteen years ago or so. Back then I did get that valve from James at Spliteze. Nice guy back then. From then on I normally bought parts off Ebay. It took some looking threw my hyd spare parts area but I found the box with the dump valve parts in it and the paper work I had wrote up. I have used the Sun hydraulics parts. The block part number is BAD 1CS5-AB and the cartridge part number is CKEB-XCN. The information I had on a sheet of paper said that cartridge has a 30 PSI cracking pressure 3:1 ratio 30 GPM flow. I am no engineer either but we installed several of these set ups and they worked. I am sure you can go to sun hydraulics and check the specs. The blocks we used had 3/4 NTP working ports and 3/8 pilot port.

Thats what i have found also, thank you for taking the time to look at that and reference those parts. I appreciete that very much. Im wondering if theres any benefit between a 20psi cracking pressure vs a 30 but in honesty ill probably just stick to the 30psi.

 

[rancher2]

I don't think we ever tried a different cracking pressure cartridge. 30 PSI worked so that is what we stayed with. Only thing we found on one of the early ones we did we used a 1/4 hose for the pilot line and that didn't seem to work well so from then on we used a 1/2 hose. Looks like your running a oversized rod cylinder. That's the only time the dump valve seems to really help. Normally with a 28 GPM two stage pump we would run 20-30 gallons of oil and a cooler with a electric fan. We split a lot of wood in the summer as that's when we have time.

 

[SemperFiSawguy]

I appreciete the insight, it sounds like i should just stick with the 30psi.
I wonder if the SUN ECN block is compatible as a superceded part number for the BAD 1CS5-AB you mentioned. Im having trouble locating that part number.

 

[rancher2]

Not sure what to tell you. I did a quick search on Ebay the cartridge number comes up. Several for sale. I double checked the block number and it is stamped on the block BAD 1CS5-AB but I didn't see any on Ebay. They may have changed the numbers. Trying to find a dealer that will help you will be good luck. I don't know if any of the big wood splitter builder's run dump valves or not. You might check that and try to give them a call and see if you can get one from them. Manufacture's are not normally very helpful. Back when I built my processor and was trying to find a hyd motor for my saw build no one want to share information.

 

[SemperFiSawguy]

Thats no good, i cant overstate how much i appreciete you taking the time to look for that part number let alone sharing it. You are a saint!! Im very interested to see the benefits of adding it once i get my paws on one.

 

[nedsim]

I appreciete the insight, it sounds like i should just stick with the 30psi.
I wonder if the SUN ECN block is compatible as a superceded part number for the BAD 1CS5-AB you mentioned. Im having trouble locating that part number.

Something to be aware of is that Sun uses their own cavity designs that are not compatible with the industry standard cavities used by Parker, Eaton, etc. Nothing wrong with Sun's stuff as long as you can get what you need from them when you need it, but you limit your options. We've had trouble recently getting cartridges for standard cavities that were readily available only a few years ago and had to resort to buying Chinese valves thru Aliexpress. Nothing exotic, just plain check valves. This may not be a problem with Sun -- just a heads up.

 

[SemperFiSawguy]

Something to be aware of is that Sun uses their own cavity designs that are not compatible with the industry standard cavities used by Parker, Eaton, etc. Nothing wrong with Sun's stuff as long as you can get what you need from them when you need it, but you limit your options. We've had trouble recently getting cartridges for standard cavities that were readily available only a few years ago and had to resort to buying Chinese valves thru Aliexpress. Nothing exotic, just plain check valves. This may not be a problem with Sun -- just a heads up.

I was actually trying to source a standard block from parker but im having trouble finding a 50gpm minimum valve block/valve combo with a 20-30psi spec.
Originally i wanted either a
CSP161P20V-A16T
Or a CSP161P20-A16T

But i cant even find where to even buy one and im worried 20psi is to low of a cracking pressure. That and parker lists them as NLA..? So what is a substitute part number with a 25-30psi cracking pressure?

 

[nedsim]

I was actually trying to source a standard block from parker but im having trouble finding a 50gpm minimum valve block/valve combo with a 20-30psi spec.
Originally i wanted either a
CSP161P20V-A16T
Or a CSP161P20-A16T

But i cant even find where to even buy one and im worried 20psi is to low of a cracking pressure. That and parker lists them as NLA..? So what is a substitute part number with a 25-30psi cracking pressure?

I just took a quick look in the Eaton catalog. Their SPC2 valves appear to be comparable to the Parker CSP series, but they don't list an SPC2 bigger than a -10 cartridge. They do show a similar 4CK series that's available in the flow range you're looking for, but the cracking pressure is not selectable nor is the cracking pressure specified.

I didn't order the Chinese valves myself -- I'll try to remember to ask the guy who did the details.

 

[SemperFiSawguy]

I just took a quick look in the Eaton catalog. Their SPC2 valves appear to be comparable to the Parker CSP series, but they don't list an SPC2 bigger than a -10 cartridge. They do show a similar 4CK series that's available in the flow range you're looking for, but the cracking pressure is not selectable nor is the cracking pressure specified.

I didn't order the Chinese valves myself -- I'll try to remember to ask the guy who did the details.

All of my fittings are -12 and or 3/4 JIC so i would rather not step down in flow if i dont have too. I would want -12 they are just seemingly harder and harder to find.

Now, i have a parker CVH161P in my hand, is there a valve that will screw into that block that meets my specs? How would i find that even? This valve is only related at 5psi cracking pressure so i cant use it.

 

[Sidecarflip]

I work with hydraulics almost constantly and I've never heard the term 'cracking pressure'. Please explain it to me. Of course my hydraulics are always driving implements on the back end of my farm tractors.

 

[SemperFiSawguy]

I work with hydraulics almost constantly and I've never heard the term 'cracking pressure'. Please explain it to me. Of course my hydraulics are always driving implements on the back end of my farm tractors.

It referse to the minimum pressure required to "crack" open the check valve to allow oil to pass through, in this case to pass through the check valve and dump into my filter head and back to my tank bypassing the autocycle valve entirely. The trick being to set the cracking pressure high enough where it wont open accidentally from return oil flowing from the rod end port during the expanding stroke, but low enough that it WILL open the check valve when you pressurize the rod end port during the retract port.

 

[sean donato]

It's not bypassing the auto cycle valve, just give another port for return fluid. Hence why it needs the pilot so there's no reverse flow till the cylinder retracts, giving you 2 paths for fluid to return. No need for a 50/60 gpm valve. Really no benefits over 30 gpm as the autocycle valve will still return fluid.
30 psi or under pilot cracking pressure should be fine. If you're overly worried about it, stick a gauge on the return side of the cylinder and see what it operates at. From every splitter build I've seen and the few processors I've worked on 30 psi is kinda standard.

 

[SemperFiSawguy]

It's not bypassing the auto cycle valve, just give another port for return fluid. Hence why it needs the pilot so there's no reverse flow till the cylinder retracts, giving you 2 paths for fluid to return. No need for a 50/60 gpm valve. Really no benefits over 30 gpm as the autocycle valve will still return fluid.
30 psi or under pilot cracking pressure should be fine. If you're overly worried about it, stick a gauge on the return side of the cylinder and see what it operates at. From every splitter build I've seen and the few processors I've worked on 30 psi is kinda standard.

I have a gauge on my filter head and it never exceeds 15psi at WOT with cold fluid so in reality i could use a 20-30psi. I found a 20psi check valve as a hydroforce part number PCV16-12T-N, that i am considering. It has a 3.6:1 pipot ratio and a 20psi cracking pressure.

Dually noted about the excessive GPM although the blind end port math works out to almost 43gpm on the return stroke oil volume so i assumed i wanted at least -12 ports on whatever block i get to match my 3/4 lines and 3/4 cylinder ports?
I see alot of 30gpm check valves with -8 ports at a certain PSI which seem undersized?

 

[sean donato]

I have a gauge on my filter head and it never exceeds 15psi at WOT with cold fluid so in reality i could use a 20-30psi. I found a 20psi check valve as a hydroforce part number PCV16-12T-N, that i am considering. It has a 3.6:1 pipot ratio and a 20psi cracking pressure.

Dually noted about the excessive GPM although the blind end port math works out to almost 43gpm on the return stroke oil volume so i assumed i wanted at least -12 ports on whatever block i get to match my 3/4 lines and 3/4 cylinder ports?
I see alot of 30gpm check valves with -8 ports at a certain PSI which seem undersized?

Even with a 25gpm auto cycle valve and a 30 gpm pilot check valve you're still 55 gpm rated flow capacity. So plenty of flow capacity for 43gpm.
The biggest restrictions you have is the valve sizes and fittings. You should have 2 fittings on the cylinder to take full advantage of the dump valve, still need to flow all that oil out of the single -12 (or 3/4" same size.)
Filter head pressure doesn't matter in this case. The gauge needs to be on the cylinder before the valve to see the pressure generated from retracting the cylinder. Anything after the valve just the line and filter as a restriction. Hence why it's called a filter restriction gauge.
It's easy enough to plumb everything up and see how it work.

 

[SemperFiSawguy]

Even with a 25gpm auto cycle valve and a 30 gpm pilot check valve you're still 55 gpm rated flow capacity. So plenty of flow capacity for 43gpm.
The biggest restrictions you have is the valve sizes and fittings. You should have 2 fittings on the cylinder to take full advantage of the dump valve, still need to flow all that oil out of the single -12 (or 3/4" same size.)
Filter head pressure doesn't matter in this case. The gauge needs to be on the cylinder before the valve to see the pressure generated from retracting the cylinder. Anything after the valve just the line and filter as a restriction. Hence why it's called a filter restriction gauge.
It's easy enough to plumb everything up and see how it work.

I didnt consider adding them up to achieve my actual rating thanks for pointing that out. I really wish i did have an additional port on my cylinder, im scared to attempt drilling and welding an additional port on there myself and risking damaging it. It really would be beneficial though otherwise im planning on simpling running a T off the base port. Which as you point out is not as effective. Im just nervous about warping the cylinder as ive never welded on one before and all i have is an arc welder. If i had a tig set up id be alot more confident.

 

[nedsim]

All of my fittings are -12 and or 3/4 JIC so i would rather not step down in flow if i dont have too. I would want -12 they are just seemingly harder and harder to find.

Now, i have a parker CVH161P in my hand, is there a valve that will screw into that block that meets my specs? How would i find that even? This valve is only related at 5psi cracking pressure so i cant use it.

Seems like you have 2 choices to find a suitable valve. Send the p/n of the cartridge to the various mfrs and ask for a comparable valve with the higher cracking pressure, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for an answer. Or wade thru the mfrs' catalogs. Eaton(Vickers), Parker, Rexroth, Hydraforce, etc.

Or replace the spring in your valve with a stiffer one.

 

[sean donato]

I didnt consider adding them up to achieve my actual rating thanks for pointing that out. I really wish i did have an additional port on my cylinder, im scared to attempt drilling and welding an additional port on there myself and risking damaging it. It really would be beneficial though otherwise im planning on simpling running a T off the base port. Which as you point out is not as effective. Im just nervous about warping the cylinder as ive never welded on one before and all i have is an arc welder. If i had a tig set up id be alot more confident.

I used to worry about screwing up the cylinder till I had Manheim hydraulics pit a different fitting on a cylinder for me. Nothing poetic about it. The pulled the ram out, cut off the old fitting and welded on the new one. (Mig welder) Cleaned everything up and put the ram back in.
Didn't charge me much to do it either. May be worth looking into if you're so inclined. I do my own now since seeing it, so long as I can get the cylinder apart.

 

[rancher2]

If you do end up putting the dump valve on. I would take the cylinder apart and weld on another fitting. Before I had a mig or tig machine I arc welded many hyd fitting on with 7018 rod. Just adding a T is not the right way to do it. Take a look at Wolf Ridge splitters web site. The pictures they show on the model 35 HO shows a dump valve on there. You may contact them and see if you can get a valve from them.