Still missing parts, or something's messed up...help!

[OneStaple]

Hey,

This is an update/continuation of a past thread about some missing parts on my Stihl 051 (http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=66715).

Previously, I just knew I had an unfilled hole around my crankshaft near the bearings on the clutch side. I thought that all I had to add was the oil pump worm/gear. I have that part now, and there's still a gap, so something is not right.

It's probably easiest to see in the pictures, but there's a difference of 5 mm between the inside diameter of the existing oil seal and the outside diameter of the oil pump worm (30 mm and 25 mm, respectively). These are labeled in the picture, along with the outside diameter of the rubber part of the oil seal (38 mm) and the outside diameter of the metal piece that it fits into (51 mm).

I also include pictures from the Stihl 051 IPL. It lists two oil rings, #9 and #33 (#33 has an asterisk, suggesting that it's optional or a change or something). #9 is given as 25x47x7 and #33 is given as 30x42x7. Perhaps I have #33 in there now and need #9, based on the inside diameters? But in either case, the outer diameters don't match up. I also included a picture from the IPL of the page with the oil pump worm (#12, part number 1111-640-7111).

So, what gives? I have no clue what to do from here. Am I missing another part? Should I swap out the oil ring? What on earth is in there now?

Can anyone take pictures or measure theirs so I know what I'm aiming for?

Thanks,
Tyler

 

[harrygrey382]

yeah have the wrong oil seal for that worm drive - you have 9629 003 3400 (33 in picture). You want 9629 003 2900 (9 in picture) which is 25mm internal diameter. These are available from any stihl dealer.

 

[OneStaple]

Ugh...what gives? I got the new oil seal in today (9629 003 2900 (#9 in picture)). It fits around the worm gear nicely, but now the outer diameter doesn't match up with the hole. The new oil seal is 25x47x7 based on the IPL and measurements. The one in there seems to be 30x42 (42 mm outer diameter if you measure to the outside of the yellowish circle in the pic in my previous post, which is just outside the 38 mm diameter green part). The casting around it looks solid, so there's no way this bigger oil seal will fit in there.

So now what do I do? I have a new oil seal and worm and it doesn't look like I'll be able to get them in. Is there another style of worm with a 30mm diameter? I don't see it in the IPL, but I think I might have seen one on ebay a month ago or so. And then I guess I'd probably also have to change the cover for that area to one with pins and the clutch drum to accept the pins.

Is there any other way out, or is that what I have to do? And does anyone know the part number for the other sized worm, if there is one?

Thanks,
Tyler

 

[harrygrey382]

5hit sorry I should have seen this in the IPL as they've got different ODs. Looks like someone's put the later oil pump worm in, but as you say they're not listed in the IPL, even though mine's for the 050 too.

When you put the worm in without the seal, can you see it conecting with and driving the oil pump? If it's a different OD I'd have thought the worm won't drive the pump. If it doesn't drive it, you'll have to get another worm (http://cgi.ebay.com/STIHL-050-051-0...20538QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1713.m153.l1262)

If it does drive it you could go to a generic seal supplier/manufactuer and give say you want an oil seal 25x42x7. They may well have one that fits, or is slightly deeper or something (they often have a range of pretty much every possible combination). I'd say it'd be cheaper than the $22 for a new worm, but maybe not much in it.

 

[harrygrey382]

having a closer look at the pin style worm - it look slike the worm drive is the same diameter, just the sealing surface is wider. So if you go that route it'll drive the pump, but you'll need a new sprocket and maybe cover washer.

 

[djmercer1]

having a closer look at the pin style worm - it look slike the worm drive is the same diameter, just the sealing surface is wider. So if you go that route it'll drive the pump, but you'll need a new sprocket and maybe cover washer.

i did this swap on my 051(pin drive to lug drive oil pump worm), i needed only to replace the worm(came loaded with the crank seal), the cover washer plate and sprocket. then i milled slots into my old pin drive sprocket for a backup. you could alter the cover washer if you like, but it was cheap to replace(worm and sprocket ~$45 each, wasker ~$8).

i still have the worm and cover plate for the pin drive system if anyone wants it....

 

[harrygrey382]

i did this swap on my 051(pin drive to lug drive oil pump worm), i needed only to replace the worm(came loaded with the crank seal), the cover washer plate and sprocket. then i milled slots into my old pin drive sprocket for a backup. you could alter the cover washer if you like, but it was cheap to replace(worm and sprocket ~$45 each, wasker ~$8).

i still have the worm and cover plate for the pin drive system if anyone wants it....

so the seal for the newer worm (9629 003 2900) fitted your old case fine? In the IPL it lists the seal for the old (pin type) worm as 5mm narrower than the seal for the new worm type... How did you find this complication?

 

[djmercer1]

so the seal for the newer worm (9629 003 2900) fitted your old case fine? In the IPL it lists the seal for the old (pin type) worm as 5mm narrower than the seal for the new worm type... How did you find this complication?

i didnt remove the seal from the case and the new lug style worm fit fine. the ods of the pin and lug worms were identical.

 

[harrygrey382]

i didnt remove the seal from the case and the new lug style worm fit fine. the ods of the pin and lug worms were identical.

hmm, I'm getting confused - that other seal (33 in pic) must be for a different worm gear, and I thought it would be a simple case of pin v lug drive gears. Maybe there were two different worms...

did yours look identical to this

I'm assuming it didn't, that it looked like a lug drive one but with holes for the pin?

 

[djmercer1]

hmm, I'm getting confused - that other seal (33 in pic) must be for a different worm gear, and I thought it would be a simple case of pin v lug drive gears. Maybe there were two different worms...

did yours look identical to this

I'm assuming it didn't, that it looked like a lug drive one but with holes for the pin?

yes, my old worm looked like that one. there are 3 holes because the 8t-3/8 sprocket has the pins 180deg apart where as the 7t-404 sprocket has the pins about 102deg apart. the new worm i installed was the lug style and it fit the preinstalled case seal fine.

i can check my ipl later(its a paper copy, not the mediacat version) against the mediacat version and see if theres a discrepancy.

to the op, post the number of the worm you have and ill check against the one i ordered. i suspect that theres a difference in worms based on year of the saw....

 

[harrygrey382]

yes, my old worm looked like that one. there are 3 holes because the 8t-3/8 sprocket has the pins 180deg apart where as the 7t-404 sprocket has the pins about 102deg apart. the new worm i installed was the lug style and it fit the preinstalled case seal fine.

i can check my ipl later(its a paper copy, not the mediacat version) against the mediacat version and see if theres a discrepancy.

to the op, post the number of the worm you have and ill check against the one i ordered. i suspect that theres a difference in worms based on year of the saw....

are you sure the worm thread was recessed so far behind the sealing surface? I think though they kept the worm gear the same and changed the sealing surface, resulting in you having a smaller worm gear sealing surface so it fit the seal type. What he's go is

what his case/seal combo is meant to have is

what yours had originally was

well, if you imagine the worm gear OD diameter was the same as the sealing surface...

so he needs the old worm drive or a custom seal. Unless I'm missing something... very possible!

 

[djmercer1]

harrys last post

to satify my curosity, i had to go home lunch time and check the worm/seal dimensions.

my original worm(pin type) had an od of 30mm +/-, and the newer lug style worm also had the same outside diameter. the only difference in the worms i have are the pin vs lug drive style to the oil pump.

later ill remove the worm and verify the heights are the same, but i can remember checking when i bought it that the difference wasnt dicernable by eye.

 

[harrygrey382]

to satify my curosity, i had to go home lunch time and check the worm/seal dimensions.

my original worm(pin type) had an od of 30mm +/-, and the newer lug style worm also had the same outside diameter. the only difference in the worms i have are the pin vs lug drive style to the oil pump.

later ill remove the worm and verify the heights are the same, but i can remember checking when i bought it that the difference wasnt dicernable by eye.

well FMD, I guess there are four different types of worm gear. My IPL only lists one (different part no to the cheap stihl saw parts one i posted). Can anyone else spread light on this? My service maunual doesn't mention it, I assume they're serial no specific, but I've never hear danyone else mentioning there are different diameters. I guess it's still age related, but it really throws my theory that you have a fat lugged one...

I recently got my 3rd 111 chainsaw (got a cut off body too), they've all had the thing lugged ones...

Anyone know?

 

[djmercer1]

well FMD, I guess there are four different types of worm gear. My IPL only lists one (different part no to the cheap stihl saw parts one i posted). Can anyone else spread light on this? My service maunual doesn't mention it, I assume they're serial no specific, but I've never hear danyone else mentioning there are different diameters. I guess it's still age related, but it really throws my theory that you have a fat lugged one...

I recently got my 3rd 111 chainsaw (got a cut off body too), they've all had the thing lugged ones...

Anyone know?

what i did, after getting several wrong parts, was give the stihl tech in london,ont the serial umber from my saw and he sent it to one of his mechanics/design guys and they sourced the correct part. i suspect that if we had all the tech bullitins etc we could easily see when the change was made.

to the op, i can get you the 'fat' lug style worm number later this evening so you can order that. its still a current part for stihl canada.

 

[OneStaple]

Wow, thanks for all the replies and discussion guys. Weird that there'd be a variation on all these types. My IPL also only lists one worm, which is the one I have (see next paragraph).

As I think I mentioned before, the ID of the oil seal that's currently in the saw is 30 mm, whereas the new oil seal that I bought is 25 mm (but it's OD is too big to fit in). The saw didn't come with a worm, so all I have is the new worm that I ordered from Stihl, which has an OD of 25 mm. The part number for the worm I ordered should be 1111-640-7111 (from my opening post, and I'm pretty sure that's the actual number I got).

I believe the sprocket I have can accept either lug or pin type (it's a new aftermarket one). The cover washer I have is for the lug type, but I don't remember if I got that with the saw or if it came with the clutch I bought for the saw (the saw was missing all of the clutch/sprocket components). I think it might have come with the saw, suggesting that the saw might have had the 30 mm OD lug type worm.

When I get home, perhaps I can look up the saw's serial number.

So it sounds like I have three options:
1. Get a custom oil seal.
2. Find a 30 mm OD pin worm system (cheap stihl parts has one).
3. Find a 30 mm OD lug worm system.

Does pin vs. lug make much difference? Is it worth trying to find a lug type worm?

Thanks,
Tyler

 

[djmercer1]

Wow, thanks for all the replies and discussion guys. Weird that there'd be a variation on all these types. My IPL also only lists one worm, which is the one I have (see next paragraph).

As I think I mentioned before, the ID of the oil seal that's currently in the saw is 30 mm, whereas the new oil seal that I bought is 25 mm (but it's OD is too big to fit in). The saw didn't come with a worm, so all I have is the new worm that I ordered from Stihl, which has an OD of 25 mm. The part number for the worm I ordered should be 1111-640-7111 (from my opening post, and I'm pretty sure that's the actual number I got).

I believe the sprocket I have can accept either lug or pin type (it's a new aftermarket one). The cover washer I have is for the lug type, but I don't remember if I got that with the saw or if it came with the clutch I bought for the saw (the saw was missing all of the clutch/sprocket components). I think it might have come with the saw, suggesting that the saw might have had the 30 mm OD lug type worm.

When I get home, perhaps I can look up the saw's serial number.

So it sounds like I have three options:
1. Get a custom oil seal.
2. Find a 30 mm OD pin worm system (cheap stihl parts has one).
3. Find a 30 mm OD lug worm system.

Does pin vs. lug make much difference? Is it worth trying to find a lug type worm?

Thanks,
Tyler

for me, stihl canada doesnt have any sprockets left for the pin system. to that end, i have the cover plate with pins and a pin style worm with an od of 30mm available if your sprocket suits. to me the difference in using the pin style system is that you need to swap cover plates if going from a 8t(3/8) to 7t(404) sprockets due to the difference in pin location. the lug style worm should be readily available.

 

[djmercer1]

well FMD, I guess there are four different types of worm gear. My IPL only lists one (different part no to the cheap stihl saw parts one i posted). Can anyone else spread light on this? My service maunual doesn't mention it, I assume they're serial no specific, but I've never hear danyone else mentioning there are different diameters. I guess it's still age related, but it really throws my theory that you have a fat lugged one...

I recently got my 3rd 111 chainsaw (got a cut off body too), they've all had the thing lugged ones...

Anyone know?

i just checked the receipt when i bought the lug style worm, its number was 1111-640-7111 and its sealing diameter is 30mm +/-. i think he may have gotten the wrong worm and i check into that.

 

[harrygrey382]

Wow, thanks for all the replies and discussion guys. Weird that there'd be a variation on all these types. My IPL also only lists one worm, which is the one I have (see next paragraph).

As I think I mentioned before, the ID of the oil seal that's currently in the saw is 30 mm, whereas the new oil seal that I bought is 25 mm (but it's OD is too big to fit in). The saw didn't come with a worm, so all I have is the new worm that I ordered from Stihl, which has an OD of 25 mm. The part number for the worm I ordered should be 1111-640-7111 (from my opening post, and I'm pretty sure that's the actual number I got).

I believe the sprocket I have can accept either lug or pin type (it's a new aftermarket one). The cover washer I have is for the lug type, but I don't remember if I got that with the saw or if it came with the clutch I bought for the saw (the saw was missing all of the clutch/sprocket components). I think it might have come with the saw, suggesting that the saw might have had the 30 mm OD lug type worm.

When I get home, perhaps I can look up the saw's serial number.

So it sounds like I have three options:
1. Get a custom oil seal.
2. Find a 30 mm OD pin worm system (cheap stihl parts has one).
3. Find a 30 mm OD lug worm system.

Does pin vs. lug make much difference? Is it worth trying to find a lug type worm?

Thanks,
Tyler

The only difference would be the ease of using the (common) lug style drums, and maybe never losing the pin. I reckon cos you've got the new lug worm I'd look into the custom seal. If it's going to be any sort of hastle though take djmercer up on his offer - I don't think the pin style is really a problem. Like djmercer said, some of them have pins and slots. You could drill the cover washer out, and maybe even drill the drum out if you're careful/have good drill bits.. (may need heat treating?)

i just checked the receipt when i bought the lug style worm, its number was 1111-640-7111 and its sealing diameter is 30mm +/-. i think he may have gotten the wrong worm and i check into that.

That's still odd, that number is listed in my new(ish) IPL as the 25mm lug one... Maybe they priced it with that number for admin purposes but really it's different? Anyone else know anything here?

 

[harrygrey382]

here we go - go to the bottom of http://www.epm.com/oil_metricpg7.htm
they do a seal 25x47x7... I think you want the ETC one.

I'd get that seal and you're done - using the new type worm!

 

[OneStaple]

I think you might have meant to tell me to get the 25x42x7. There's too many IDs and ODs floating around.

The ETC style looks kinda close to the cross section of the new oil seal that I got, but not quite. The new one I got has two circular springs (see the rough cross section that I drew below...black is metal, red is rubber, circles are the springs that go around). I didn't see a similar cross section on that website, and it sounded like those were the standard cross sections from their descriptions. How much difference would it make to go with the ETC style vs. the style of the oil seal in my hand? I'll look around some for other sites that sell a style similar to what I have in front of me. I've never searched for these though, so let me know if you guys know of any other good sources.

I also slid the 25 mm OD worm into the hole, and it engages the oil pump nicely. So it's just that OD where it hits the oil seal that's a problem.

djmercer1 - I'm going to look a little for a 3rd party oil seal, since I paid good money for the new worm from Stihl and it's easier to mix with different pitches, as you mentioned. But I may grow impatient with that quickly and send you a PM for yours. I have a 7 tooth 3/8" sprocket with the pin holes spaced about 102 deg. apart. Will your cover washer work on that, or do you have the 180 deg. pins?

--Tyler