Topping spar trees

[slowp]

I haven't seen the untwisting of a twister, just heard horror stories. One old guy here says he will cut through the stump it is wired to just enough so it can be tilted a little, and that releases the tension on the twister line. Then it can be undone with a little less excitement.

The strength of support trees depends on the species used, their size, and the soil they are rooted in. If there is a large old growth Doug fir to be used, it isn't topped because it is a much stronger tree than the usual second growth tree (usually used). Twisters can be made using standing trees to wrap to.

A small log can be notched at both ends and wedged between the guyline stump and another tree or stump. This is another way to reinforce the guyline stump. One hooktender was doing that. It saved him from packing more line down the hill.

I'd post some pictures of twisters but I cleaned house last weekend and can't find the thumb drive!

 

[Kiwilogger]

Are we talking about spar trees, intermediate supports, lift trees, or trees as tailholds? As for guylines on any of the above when I was hooking on a swing yarder we used heavy duty blue rope to guyline any of the above. we also used a capstan winch or comealong to tension guylines for the above, or twisted them .Depending on the situation tailhold trees,lift trees, and guyline trees related to the above were rarely topped. Pick good trees, set you're guylines low, and if in doubt top em, watch Your'e turn size, and be smart about not puting too much side pull on the riggin, and You should'nt be pulling over trees. We allways topped spar, and intermediate support trees

Hey there.

What I call a tailspar is this:

Backline tree that is guyed back with a block 20ft (or whatever) up the spar that the skyline goes through (then back to a stump).

We only tension our spars by hand using bulldog clamps.

slowp, the method you describe using a small log between stumps we call a jill and poke. Gawd knows why, but there ya go. LOL We still twister strawline (I think you guys call it haywire) around though.

Oregoncutter, regarding the guy angle on spar trees, our best practice guidelines (NZ OSH publication) say that we should only use 40 deg between guys, and no more than a 45 from the top of the spar to the stump.


Good thread!

 

[slowp]

Here's a jill poke or whatever.

Here's a standard twister.

 

[Metals406]

I was never afforded the opportunity to use real complex rigging while I was doing high-lead. The most I ever did was a lift tree, to a tail hold. The lift tree was guyed with two lines, approx. 40° back from the direction of pull. The lift tree was not topped... As it was just outside the sale boundary (you didn't hear me say that).

I used a ******-lip (sorry, that's what they're called) to set the sky in, and it led to a tail stump or tree (can't remember which?)...

It was hard to rig, as I hand pulled the skyline into the lift tree, and didn't use a block (boss didn't give us that option)... God is that cable heavy to lift when you're 40' in the air and on spikes!!

My back and legs were sore for a week. Rigging is definitely a science, and kudos to the guys who have done a little of everything!

 

[captainsteep]

outstanding info, here is what i have going on,we are out 1100 ft not to steep of ground at the bottom it flattens out for 400ft so i have climbed a nice size hardmaple 30ft up to get lift across the flats, that tree i am calling the spar tree(lift tree),in that tree i have a cable block rigged in it,so the skyline goes through it and back to a nice size maple 60ft back and rigged around the stump(3ft stump) so the trees we are using are nice size, i would say that the reason we pulled two over was wet ground and to much side pull through a thinning job (moved skyline to far up the hill,)

 

[Humptulips]

If we use a tailspar, then we are definitely going to be bridling a lot of wood off the one spar. We are using northbend. Mostly it's 3 guys rather than 4. I put up to 30 tonnes of pressure on my skyline (via the tension meter), and to rig one extra guyline for the security is bugger all work, compared to the effort involved in recovering a smashed spar setup.

Yea, I can see 3 or 4 guylines if you're northbending off that tail tree. Still think 3/4 is overkill. I'd drop to 5/8 at least but you know the situation better then I.
We used to have 3/4 by 250' tail tree guylines and one of them coiled weighed 175 pounds. I could pack one then but not anymore. Joints tell me I shouldn't have done it then. That's probably the reason I'd want to drop a size in guyline.LOL
Be a kick to travel down your way and look it over but doubt that'll happen. You wouldn't happen to have any pictures. That would be sweet.

 

[Humptulips]

Hey there.

What I call a tailspar is this:

Backline tree that is guyed back with a block 20ft (or whatever) up the spar that the skyline goes through (then back to a stump).

We only tension our spars by hand using bulldog clamps.

slowp, the method you describe using a small log between stumps we call a jill and poke. Gawd knows why, but there ya go. LOL We still twister strawline (I think you guys call it haywire) around though.

Oregoncutter, regarding the guy angle on spar trees, our best practice guidelines (NZ OSH publication) say that we should only use 40 deg between guys, and no more than a 45 from the top of the spar to the stump.


Good thread!

I've seen clamps used and used them a few times on tail tree guylines. Don't like them. Too much junk to pack around. My way was to tighten by hand or if too long a guyline with a comealong. Then I would put three wraps and three half hitches on the stump. Sometimes I would use a timber hitch but that can be hard on line so only used it in a pinch. Always tried for three wraps first though.

Never knew anyone to start measuring angles on guylines. That sounds fine in the safety book but in practise experience tells you if it will work. Should be able to tell by the look of it.

 

[oregoncutter]

Now that's ahrd work.

It was hard to rig, as I hand pulled the skyline into the lift tree, and didn't use a block (boss didn't give us that option)... God is that cable heavy to lift when you're 40' in the air and on spikes!!

My back and legs were sore for a week. Rigging is definitely a science, and kudos to the guys who have done a little of everything!

I have rigged a few trees in my days on yarder sides, and allways used a block in my lift trees , ( tree rigged high for lift near the tailhold). I know I physicall couldn't and can't lift a skyline very high especially when it's out a ways. I allways used haywire to pull my skylines, and haulbacks to where I wanted them. So my skullbuckets off to Metals406!!!
I agree with humptulips quote("Never knew anyone to start measuring angles on guylines. That sounds fine in the safety book but in practise experience tells you if it will work. Should be able to tell by the look of it.")
My eye was my measuring device, and having a standard or suggestion is helpful sometimes in the real world for example if I was real busy short yarding, and alot of rigging, theyd feel nice and send a (pimp) or hooktender helper after picking out my trees and or stumps I could tell a guy to set the guyline angles at a 40-50 degrees and it helped them to remember. (of course I allways double checked their work it was my ass, and consience if things were to go South

 

[Metals406]

I have rigged a few trees in my days on yarder sides, and allways used a block in my lift trees , ( tree rigged high for lift near the tailhold). I know I physicall couldn't and can't lift a skyline very high especially when it's out a ways. I allways used haywire to pull my skylines, and haulbacks to where I wanted them. So my skullbuckets off to Metals406!!!

I hear ya there... Pulled all the stuff up into that fir with a bloomin' rope... Thought the boss was trying to kill me!

By the time I got that skyline up there, I had to just hold it for a minute or two, before reaching out to hang it in the ******-lip. The whole time the lead hookers asking what's taking so long, and the boss is on the radio hollering to hurry up!

Hanging that skyline that way is dumb, and if I was in my right mind at the time, I would have told them to kiss my shiny white butt! With all that weight on my lower back, it felt like my spine was trying to spit out onto the ground!!

Not a recommended procedure!!

 

[Kiwilogger]

Yea, I can see 3 or 4 guylines if you're northbending off that tail tree. Still think 3/4 is overkill. I'd drop to 5/8 at least but you know the situation better then I.
We used to have 3/4 by 250' tail tree guylines and one of them coiled weighed 175 pounds. I could pack one then but not anymore. Joints tell me I shouldn't have done it then. That's probably the reason I'd want to drop a size in guyline.LOL
Be a kick to travel down your way and look it over but doubt that'll happen. You wouldn't happen to have any pictures. That would be sweet.

If you ever are over this side of the globe, message me, there's always a bed for a logger here, as well as a choker to set.

 

[Kiwilogger]

I've seen clamps used and used them a few times on tail tree guylines. Don't like them. Too much junk to pack around. My way was to tighten by hand or if too long a guyline with a comealong.

It's surely easier to pack 4x 2 ounce bulldog clamps, than a 30 pound comealong.

 

[Humptulips]

If I was ever to get down your way I guess I would have to bring you a comealong. They only wiegh about 7 pounds around here. Mostly I tightened by hand. Only occasionally had to use a comealong like on a particularly long one. Steep ground in order to get the right angle I've sometimes had to go out a long ways. Once about 400 feet. That was a very tall tail tree also. Really the exception though. 95% tightened by hand.

 

[Kiwilogger]

I have to admit to you, hump, I haven't done a whole hell of a lot of working with tail spars. A few I guess, but still less than 20 in all my logging. I guess ya do what you learnt from others, and what ya know works, but I'm always open to learn sommit new.

You just tie 'em off like you do with strawline on a twister?

 

[Kiwilogger]

:censored:

I mean haywire.

:hmm3grin2orange:

 

[oregoncutter]

comealongs

If I was ever to get down your way I guess I would have to bring you a comealong. They only wiegh about 7 pounds around here. Mostly I tightened by hand. Only occasionally had to use a comealong like on a particularly long one. Steep ground in order to get the right angle I've sometimes had to go out a long ways. Once about 400 feet. That was a very tall tail tree also. Really the exception though. 95% tightened by hand.

:agree2:Years ago I worked for a siderod that insisted on me using a gas powered capstan winch, it was a heavy undependable little bastard of a tool that got left in the riggin truck unless he was at the job site. Mostly twisted em with a big limb, or used a comealong and clamps, or if there wasn't one good tree or stump to tie off to I would take haywire and put a twister between two or more stumps for strength and then tie off to the lead one.

 

[Humptulips]

I have to admit to you, hump, I haven't done a whole hell of a lot of working with tail spars. A few I guess, but still less than 20 in all my logging. I guess ya do what you learnt from others, and what ya know works, but I'm always open to learn sommit new.

You just tie 'em off like you do with strawline on a twister?

Kiwi,
Funny thing, where I started in the woods always called it strawline and it stuck with me so I guess we have that in common.
When putting up a tail tree guyline I would pull them up tight as I could get them by hand, often would have a couple feet of belly but they don't have to be fiddle string tight. When the skyline picks up the tree will come ahead and thighten the guyline. Anyway pull up by hand tight and then I would put three wraps on the stump, notched of course, then three half hitches. Pretty quick and easy on a stump. Kind of a pain on a standing tree. I used every excuse I could to fall the guyline stump trees. I have on occasion used a timber hitch but it is really hard on the line. I don't like it!
Real long guylines you just can't get it tight enough by hand. My system on these was to put two notches on the stump. Short strap with the comealong on it in the lower notch to a small rigging chain on the guyline. Pick up the slack and then put your wraps and half hitches in the upper notch. Slack off the comealong and you would lose a foot maybe, still tight enough.
Twisters work great on stumps, not worth a darn for guylines.
Very few times that I have bended off a tail tree like you mentioned. Mostly shotgun or dropline carriage so mostly went with two guylines. Bending, now those were the days. Don't see it anymore.

 

[Kiwilogger]

My boss has just ordered a brand new motorised slack pulling carriage from a company over on your island.

An acme, S28. Can't wait. Apart from a mechanical dropline carriage on a swinger I drove for a while, this will be the first carriage I've ever operated (except a shottie carriage).

Carriages aren't big over here, people seem to think they're all too hard. :monkey:

Northbending, scabbing and shotgunning are the predominant rigs used.

:greenchainsaw:

 

[Humptulips]

My boss has just ordered a brand new motorised slack pulling carriage from a company over on your island.

An acme, S28. Can't wait. Apart from a mechanical dropline carriage on a swinger I drove for a while, this will be the first carriage I've ever operated (except a shottie carriage).

Carriages aren't big over here, people seem to think they're all too hard. :monkey:

Northbending, scabbing and shotgunning are the predominant rigs used.

:greenchainsaw:

Explain scabbing, never heard that term.

I have mixed feelings on the dropline carriages. If the wood is thick and you don't have all these leave trees the enviros have saddled us with you will get more wood shotgunning. Never did like the mechanical dropline carriage on the swing yarders. Too hard on lines and not found of the logging system, a lot of work in the layouts and it's sort of limited.

Never used an Acme but talked to a lot of guys that have and they seemd to think they were OK. I've just worked around Bowmans and Eagles. The Bowmans are a real log getter but fragile. The Eagles at least the kind without a drum which is what I have used are very tough. It can be a bit of a learning process when you first have to adjust the break but not bad to work on. They are very good thinning but can seem slow in the clearcut.
I will say this I really appreciated them when tailholts were scarse.

 

[Kiwilogger]

Scabbing, or scab skyline. Where the haulback goes out to the backline, back to the rigging, and there is a block joined by a short chain which rides on the non-working side of your haulback to give lift.

Regarding the carriages, yep, shotgunning is awesome, but we'd be lucky to get one setting we can shotgun in a year.

The acme carriage we're getting is a clamping slackpuller. No internal drum, weighs in at under 2000 pounds. I've talked to one guy who has a tmy 70 like us, and is using the S28. He reckons he has increased production by 15% after only 3 months of using it. He is also now running a 3/4" swaged mainrope, and only 2 chokers, instead of a 7/8" main with 3. Still got the 1 1/8 sky. I'm not game to go down to 3/4 main though, we're in pretty decent wood, around the 2.5 ton piece size, and the bush we're moving into in a few months is huge wood, 3.5 ton piece size.

I'm really looking forward to getting my hands on this carriage.

 

[Metals406]

Scabbing, or scab skyline. Where the haulback goes out to the backline, back to the rigging, and there is a block joined by a short chain which rides on the non-working side of your haulback to give lift.

Regarding the carriages, yep, shotgunning is awesome, but we'd be lucky to get one setting we can shotgun in a year.

The acme carriage we're getting is a clamping slackpuller. No internal drum, weighs in at under 2000 pounds. I've talked to one guy who has a tmy 70 like us, and is using the S28. He reckons he has increased production by 15% after only 3 months of using it. He is also now running a 3/4" swaged mainrope, and only 2 chokers, instead of a 7/8" main with 3. Still got the 1 1/8 sky. I'm not game to go down to 3/4 main though, we're in pretty decent wood, around the 2.5 ton piece size, and the bush we're moving into in a few months is huge wood, 3.5 ton piece size.

I'm really looking forward to getting my hands on this carriage.

Well at least someone in the world is still allowed to log in the juice (juice is a term for big, nice wood).