OWB v. Wood Stove

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swyman

swyman

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WOW! Sorry about that guys! I guess I got a little long-winded. :dizzy:

Gixxer, with all of that on one run, what kind of water return temps do you have? What boiler do you have. I am just curious as to how much heat you can pull out of a run. I am pulling around 50 deg. out of my loop with a 1" line. Don't know how much more I should try, would like to heat the garage.
 
mtfallsmikey

mtfallsmikey

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Got the best of both worlds...OWB and woodstove in the living room. I've been using the woodstove on the mild days, and use it during the cold windy Alberta Clipper-type days...especially while watching football.
 
bowtechmadman

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Best post of the thread Gixxer...well said. I am able to leave in the winter, once again there is a cost attached, glycol in the lines and I leave the pumps run to ensure they don't freeze. Shouldn't be too bad on the oil backup since my water is going through a hot plate.
 
giXXer

giXXer

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Gixxer, with all of that on one run, what kind of water return temps do you have? What boiler do you have. I am just curious as to how much heat you can pull out of a run. I am pulling around 50 deg. out of my loop with a 1" line. Don't know how much more I should try, would like to heat the garage.

I actually have never taken a temp reading on the return line. Now that I am curious, what would be the best way to take the temp? Infrared thermometer?

The heat exchanger in the garage is the last one in the line, it's the largest, and it still works awesome. I can take the garage (approx 26X28) from 30 degrees to 65 degrees in about 10-15 minutes. The insulated pex tubing comes into the basement from the boiler, feeds the forced air furnace exchanger, then the water heater plate exchanger, then the 70,000 btu hanging exchanger in the shop, then, finally, to the 130,000 btu +/- (I believe it is 135,000 btu, oversized, but has a variable speed fan) hanging exchanger in the garage. The return line to the boiler from the garage exchanger doesn't feel a whole lot colder than the feed line into the basement. If you are worried about losing too much heat you can always put the water heater plate exchanger last in line. Even with the cold water mixing valve turned all the way up the water at any of the taps is raging hot. I used the pricey insulated pipe that my boiler maker recommended and buried all of the pipe 6' in the ground to minimize heat loss.

The boiler I have is a Hawken Energy HE-2100. It holds 400 gallons and I believe is rated to heat up to 10,000 square feet so I wasn't all that worried about heat loss or heating capabilities related to the size of the boiler. I was more concerned with not being able to flow enough water with all of the piping, connections and the few 90 degree fittings that I had to use to do the install all on a small taco pump. I was also a little concerned about putting too much load on the taco pump on the back of the boiler with how far the water has to snake through the pipes so I bought a spare, just in case. I haven't had any issues with the system yet (knock on wood!). Oops, actually I did! When I fired the boiler up this year most of the brass fittings were dripping. I found them to all be loose! I think the expansion and contraction of the brass going from 160+ degrees to 50 degrees caused this. I re-tightened all of the fittings and it's all good. One advantage of the HE-2100 is I still have one more outlet to heat a pole barn, pool, and hot tub! I now have a neighbor about 800 yards from my house so I don't know about running it in the summer for the pool and tub, but we'll see. He's already thanked me twice for keeping the road graded so I don't think it will be a problem.

Swyman, one thing that I would recommend, especially if you are experiencing 50 deg heat loss (which sounds like a lot to me), is to get a garage unit with a variable speed fan. The variable speed fans typically only come on the larger units which is another recommendation. Having a larger exchanger and larger fan running on a lower speed appears to heat the garage better and also appears to "rob" less heat from the exchanger. Maybe I phrased that wrong. By having the fan run on a lower speed in a two stall garage I think you get less heat loss. It just seems to run more efficiently. When I had the 70,000 btu (single speed fan) heater in the garage it would run all the time and since it points toward the door it would melt the snow outside. With the larger unit it no longer does that and the garage feels much warmer. :cheers:
 
giXXer

giXXer

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Best post of the thread Gixxer...well said. I am able to leave in the winter, once again there is a cost attached, glycol in the lines and I leave the pumps run to ensure they don't freeze. Shouldn't be too bad on the oil backup since my water is going through a hot plate.

Thank you. I thought about adding glycol to prevent freezing in case of a power outage or vacation. How much glycol do you have to add to the water? I never looked any further into it because I thought treating 400+ gallons might get a little pricey, then, knowing my luck, I would have a catastrophic leak! I also don't have a hot plate exchanger for heat. I just assume that forced air propane heat warming the exchanger in the furnace plenum to keep the 400 gallons of recirculating water that is stored outside warm might also get a little pricey.
 
mtfallsmikey

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Thank you. I thought about adding glycol to prevent freezing in case of a power outage or vacation. How much glycol do you have to add to the water? I never looked any further into it because I thought treating 400+ gallons might get a little pricey, then, knowing my luck, I would have a catastrophic leak! I also don't have a hot plate exchanger for heat. I just assume that forced air propane heat warming the exchanger in the furnace plenum to keep the 400 gallons of recirculating water that is stored outside warm might also get a little pricey.

Last year, I checked on antifreeze from my HVAC wholesaler..$55/5-gal. bucket... does a 1/1 mix...ouch!

giXXer....An IR thermometer is a beautiful thing!....IR's won't work well on copper, brass, other shiny surfaces. Wrap black electric/duct tape around those materials. If you have all of those HX's in series, I'm surprised you're getting enough flow to do the job...if it ain't broke, don't fix it!
 
giXXer

giXXer

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Last year, I checked on antifreeze from my HVAC wholesaler..$55/5-gal. bucket... does a 1/1 mix...ouch!

giXXer....An IR thermometer is a beautiful thing!....IR's won't work well on copper, brass, other shiny surfaces. Wrap black electric/duct tape around those materials. If you have all of those HX's in series, I'm surprised you're getting enough flow to do the job...if it ain't broke, don't fix it!

I was worried as well. It does a great job heating the chosen areas and this time of year I only feed the boiler once every two days. Pretty soon it will be once per day, then in mid Dec. thru Feb./Mar. I fill it 1/2 to 2/3 full twice per day.

Has anyone heard of taco or recirculating pumps burning up because of too much load? I have not tested GPM's on the pump with no load and then with the current load, but looking through the clear filter housing the water is still moving at a good pace. Like you said Mikey...if it ain't broke...well...I'll keep the back-up pump handy, just in case.

And, finally, $55/5 gallon bucket? Ouch is an understatement! I figure with the boiler and all of the piping there is at least 450 gallons of water. That would be $2,475.00 in glycol, not including sales tax and probably $400.00 in shipping. You probably should have PM'd me the pricing. When the wood stove guys see that price us OWB guys are gonna' be eatin' some crow with how much we brag about them. :dizzy:
 
Austin1

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Do not underestimate the beauty and simplicity of a free standing radiant wood stove. No electricty, no fans, no pumps, no ducts and the doors and the air control are the only moving parts. This system should still be running in 50 years!

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I could not agree more I kept the house at +74° last Dec in -40 Weather with just a wood stove and fireplace insert. But when I retire I would like a nice home far from any body in the Foothills, with Elk walking through the back yard and Cougars trying to sneek up on a sleepy golden retriever on the deck. But would like a OWB to heat water.
 
flashy
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I heated my home with a woodstove in the basement for 30 years and switched to an owb 3 years ago. My chimney was shot and it wasn't feasible to spend the money it would take to fix or replace a 35' tall chimney.

Yes, the owb was also spendy, but, I love it. The stove had to be tended too often, and the lp furnace ran to much. Now with the owb, the lp furnace isn't even turned on.

Yes, the owb burns more wood, but, I've heated my house for the last MONTH with crap that otherwise would have been in a bonfire.

Even thought I burn more wood, I spend less time cutting and splitting. The hot water heater is turned off, and we keep the house warmer.
 
mtfallsmikey

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Your circ. will fry from cruddy water/seal leak before it dies from overloading...that is the slow death. Do a piping/head calc., and see exactly where you're at?...First, try this:

GPM=BTUH divided by delta t x 500...delta T is differnce between supply/return temps. 20 deg. is the norm. Then..figure pipe size.

Pipe size GPM
3/4 2-4
1 4-8
1 1/4 8-12

Then...head loss
What is the length of the run, out and back? take that, multiply by 1.5, for fittings, etc. then multiply that by .04 (4' head per 100 ft.of pipe, based on 4 ft./sec. of velocity)

than...add in the head loss for your HX's.
 
swyman

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Gixxer, sorry took so long to reply, tons going on. I have a thermometer TEE'd into the return at the boiler. I have the tube heat exchanger for the hot water heater as my first stop, then to the 40"X24" heat exchanger in the ductwork. My freind is in the commercial HVAC business and sized the heat exchanger size to the flow of my 5 ton blower so as to not be a restriction. A fellow on this site said I'm getting about 150,000 BTU's off of it. I will change my blower speed to it's lowest setting. I have a Taco 014 and my boiler sits 225' from the house with a 1"PEX. I lose about 4-5 deg (which I think is good) at return on boiler when furnace is not calling for heat but will have a 50 deg. difference when it blower runs. My flow is only about 6 gpm which I think is terrible. I expected much more from that larger of pump and was considering adding another one at the boiler return so I would push and pull. Theroretically if I increase my flow than I will have higher return temperatures. I have a CB 6048 which holds 400 gallons similar to yours. Also, I have 1" pex. Any ideas would help greatly. I want to add 400sqft of floor heat as well as a exchanger in the garage, just afraid of having 100 deg. water coming back to the boiler. Maybe it doesn't matter. I run my boiler as hot as I can, on at 185 off at 195, will have return water as low as 130. Guess a little long winded, let me know what you would do?
 
mtfallsmikey

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Gixxer, sorry took so long to reply, tons going on. I have a thermometer TEE'd into the return at the boiler. I have the tube heat exchanger for the hot water heater as my first stop, then to the 40"X24" heat exchanger in the ductwork. My freind is in the commercial HVAC business and sized the heat exchanger size to the flow of my 5 ton blower so as to not be a restriction. A fellow on this site said I'm getting about 150,000 BTU's off of it. I will change my blower speed to it's lowest setting. I have a Taco 014 and my boiler sits 225' from the house with a 1"PEX. I lose about 4-5 deg (which I think is good) at return on boiler when furnace is not calling for heat but will have a 50 deg. difference when it blower runs. My flow is only about 6 gpm which I think is terrible. I expected much more from that larger of pump and was considering adding another one at the boiler return so I would push and pull. Theroretically if I increase my flow than I will have higher return temperatures. I have a CB 6048 which holds 400 gallons similar to yours. Also, I have 1" pex. Any ideas would help greatly. I want to add 400sqft of floor heat as well as a exchanger in the garage, just afraid of having 100 deg. water coming back to the boiler. Maybe it doesn't matter. I run my boiler as hot as I can, on at 185 off at 195, will have return water as low as 130. Guess a little long winded, let me know what you would do?

That 1" pipe is your greatest enemy...but, if you have only 1" taps at the boiler, increasing pipe size won't help. Going to a primary/seconday piping scheme instead of having your stuff in series would be the best move. The second pump will help too.
 
swyman

swyman

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That 1" pipe is your greatest enemy...but, if you have only 1" taps at the boiler, increasing pipe size won't help. Going to a primary/seconday piping scheme instead of having your stuff in series would be the best move. The second pump will help too.

I know I should have used 1 1/4 but did not know at the time of install. I don't want to spend another $2400 for ThermoPex to the house and back! Just trying to compare to other people and see my options if I have any.
 
CrappieKeith

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I know I should have used 1 1/4 but did not know at the time of install. I don't want to spend another $2400 for ThermoPex to the house and back! Just trying to compare to other people and see my options if I have any.

$2400 for Thermopex....our SJ125 cost that much.
What did the OWB cost you?
 
Windwalker7

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$2400 for Thermopex....our SJ125 cost that much.
What did the OWB cost you?

How much does it cost to have a chimney built?

How much did your wood splitter cost you?

How much does it cost you to heat your hot water?

Is your garage heated?

Is your work shop heated?

Do you pay a chimney sweep or climb up on the roof and do it yourself?


:greenchainsaw:
 
John D

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I want to add 400sqft of floor heat as well as a exchanger in the garage, just afraid of having 100 deg. water coming back to the boiler. Maybe it doesn't matter. I run my boiler as hot as I can, on at 185 off at 195, will have return water as low as 130. Guess a little long winded, let me know what you would do?


Im not sure if the return water being that cool is a problem.I think that is a good thing,your extracting the heat from the 1" lines as your supposed too.You can still heat with 130 degree water....I would size your exchangers for the garage a few sizes larger than needed,that way even if the main heat is on,it will still heat your garage in an timely fashion.If the main house heat is off,it will heat it very,ver quickly quickly.The floor heat only needs low temps anyway,so that isnt a problem.Your only other option is to install another lineset for the garage and floor heat...I think I would try to use what you have first,if it doesnt work out,then you can add the line set or additional circulator.
The 6048 is a big unit,I dont think it would have a problem keeping up with its 393 gallons of hot water ,of course youll have to load it more often...
 
mtfallsmikey

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How much does it cost to have a chimney built?

How much did your wood splitter cost you?

How much does it cost you to heat your hot water?

Is your garage heated?

Is your work shop heated?

Do you pay a chimney sweep or climb up on the roof and do it yourself?


:greenchainsaw:


Different equipment for different situations:

Can't use the wood forced air furnace to:

heat other buildings
use in a counterflow configuration
no basement
no ductwork

OWB won't:
humidify air
clean the air
air condition
 
CrappieKeith

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No splitter...I buy my wood 100$ a full cord cut split and delivered.
I brush my own flue and the liner cost 500$.

I don't have a shop to heat or a garage, but when I build an attached garage my furncae will heat it and my home.


So what does it cost to dig up your lines once they have frozen because you had no power?
Ok so you bought a generator and you may added glycol which costs$$$$
Did you know that glycol reduces your efficiency by another 20% or better?
How do you heat without power...oh that's right generator.What does it cost to run that on gas?
How do you filter air in your home or have A/C add ducting...what did that cost you?
What about the other issue of boilers?
Rotting water jacket,smoke,excessive wood consuption,having to go out to fill it,shoveling the ashes out.

Like Mike said they all have their purpose, which if you look back I said that too.

I was just commenting on pex tubing.
Didn't know it cost that much.
 

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