OWB v. Wood Stove

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:agree2:

Only thing is...80% of homes I've seen have crappy, undersized ductwork.....installing contractors using "rules of thumb" (aka SWAG)regardless of house design instead of actually figuring out how many BTU's and CFM of air of heating/cooling they actually need. When I was growing up and learning the trade, HWBB was the norm, forced air was for the smaller, lower-priced homes. I've installed many BB systems and personally think it is the best,most even heat you can have....as in all systems, if installed correctly.

I agree! The best, most radiant, even heat available IMO. Can be quite expensive to purchase and install and is also pretty pricey to add central A/C due to the addition of a blower motor and duct work. Another disadvantage, and this is strictly MY OPINION, anything that carries water will eventually leak. I learned that from all of my years in Fire and Water damage restoration. I have seen a lot of damage and huge messes linked to improperly installed or frozen systems. And yes, I did just throw myself under the bus as I have 400 gallons of water waiting to flood my basement at the first hint of a leak. I have, however, limited the area of exposure to this problem to the basement mechanical room, not every room in the house like with baseboard heat.

I have also seen some very poorly installed duct work. When I was doing the fire and water damage restoration it naturally lead to the addition of duct cleaning equipment. I could not believe how many "hackers" there are in the industry calling themselves professionals that charge an arm and a leg for junky inefficient poorly installed HVAC systems. An actual professional may charge a little more upfront, but the savings will be realized in just a matter of a couple of years.
 
How much does it cost to have a chimney built?

How much did your wood splitter cost you?

How much does it cost you to heat your hot water?

Is your garage heated?

Is your work shop heated?

Do you pay a chimney sweep or climb up on the roof and do it yourself?


:greenchainsaw:

Good one & rep worthy.....nothin like givin a salesmen a good kick in the stones!
:ices_rofl:
:cheers:
Paul
 
I get asked all the time why I don't get an OWB. I have a new highly insulated two story home in Maine that I designed a floor plan to heat with wood. I heat with a Hearthstone Mansfield. I burn 4 cords of wood starting in October and I finish burning in early May. I burn just over 300 gallons of oil a year, which provides all domestic hot water year round. In an app like mine, an OWB just isn't worth it. I can go away without fear of it freezeing and burn much less wood. Now change the situation to that of an older, less well insulated house without zone heating or a longer style house or a big ranch, and the OWB starts making a lot more sense. They have their place for sure and surely deliver a more balanced heat.
 
Yep, and in my case, a 1910 2-story balloon-framed farmhouse with some insulation in 2x4 walls, and a detached 3 bay garage/workshop, my homemade OWB fills the need very well. It is 16 years old, and I had to do some refurbing to it last year when I bought the house (maybe $200 and some welding time inside the firebox). I figure if I get a few more years out of it, I have designed a replacement for it. Just need to fab it up and drop it on.

Sure I burn a lot more wood, and I can't go anywhere for vacation without making arrangements. Can't anyways because I will come home to a lot of dead livestock.

I do have my house set up with an exchanger in the plenum of the furnace (forced air), so even when the OWB runs out of wood, the fuel oil furnace will keep the circulating water from freezing (unless it is SUPER COLD like -30F).

I try not to run the furnace without the OWB, as that can go through a tank a month in the icy grip of winter - that is $600-$700 a MONTH. I have $300 and my families time into cutting up all the wood I need for this season and part of next (kept my eyes out for deals, going to auctions, talking to arborists, etc).

Yeah you got to fill it, got to clean the chimney every few weeks, scoop out ashes, etc. But, if I don't have to spend $3K or more a year to heat my house, that is worth it to me.

Would actually do some indoor wood burning, but my wife has allergies to the wood smoke over time. Loading the stove doesn't bother her, but being in it all day inside a house gives her puffy eyes and a snot nose.

I don't think any of them is a "superior" solution, but each is the ideal solution for individuals in their individual cases.
 
Gixxer says... How can you honestly, ethically, and truthfully recommend your stove over another without all of the information? I do understand your passion for Yukon stoves since selling them directly influences your income, but that is not exactly an "apples to apples" argument with any validity at all. One might conclude that you are a little biased toward Yukon and wood stoves in general, not necessarily due to performance, but because of personal financial reasons.


OK....it's all about the money...ya got me Gix old buddie..LOL
Say Gix...God is my driver and when I say something...I'm believing it.
Sounds to me like your questioning me.
I make the same amount of money either way you slice it around here.
Unless of coarse if I do not punch in and put in my day helping people.
I'm not for anything (stoves/furnaces) that burns wood.
I'm for efficient appliances that burn wood.
It can be an owb or a furnace or a stove, but I can see how you could assume.....


Mike....you bet our furnace can be problematic.
I see mis installs all of the time. I see mis use too.
Wet wood you name it.Oversized flues,contractors that do not install the furnace as per spec.
I also will say that having over 35 years of expierence building furnaces allows our company the hindsight to make changes in material to get the furnace to last longer like adding 304 grade stainless to the seconday ht. exchangers and beefing up the fireboxes, but I also know many customers have gotten over 30 years out of the old furnaces.
These are customers that took care of their furnace and operated it as intended.

I also know that if it is a mechanical thing...it will break down.There will be a failure rate.
To say it will last forever is a crock...we all know that.

Now we were talking differences.
I have pointed out negative things about boilers.
I believe at the end of the day an efficient warm air furnace properly ducted into the home with A/C and a hepa system is a much finer set up than an OWB with in floor heat.
 
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STATE OF NEW YORK
OFFICE OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
ELIOT SPITZER DIVISION OF PUBLIC ADVOCACY
Attorney General ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION BUREAU
August 11, 2005
VIA OVERNIGHT MAIL
The Honorable Stephen L. Johnson
Administrator, Environmental Protection Agency
Ariel Rios Building
1200 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.
Washington, DC 20460
Re: Petition for rulemaking under 42 U.S.C. § 7411(b)(1)
Regarding Outdoor Wood Boilers
Dear Administrator Johnson:
The States of New York, Connecticut, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, New Jersey
and Vermont, and the Northeast States for Coordinated Air Use Management (NESCAUM)
hereby petition the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) to use its authority under
section 111(b)(1) of the Clean Air Act (the “Act”), 42 U.S.C. § 7411(b)(1), to list outdoor wood
boilers (OWBs) as a category of stationary sources under section 111(b)(1)(A) and to
promulgate standards of performance for OWBs under 42 U.S.C. § 7411(b)(1)(B). In the
alternative, after listing OWBs as a category of stationary sources under section 111(b)(1)(A),
EPA could revise the existing standards for residential wood heaters, at 40 CFR §§ 60.530-
60.539b, to include standards for OWBs.
As explained in the attached report of the New York Attorney General’s Office,
Environmental Protection Bureau, entitled, Smoke Gets in Your Lungs: Outdoor Wood Boilers in
New York State (the “New York Report”), OWBs are becoming increasingly common in rural
and suburban towns and villages throughout much of the nation. Emissions of fine particulate
matter (particulate matter with a diameter less than 2.5 microns [PM 2.5]) and toxic materials
from OWBs exceed those from indoor wood stoves (called wood heaters by EPA), both on a perdevice
basis and in proportion to the energy created. Despite polluting at a significantly higher
rate than residential wood heaters, OWBs are exempt from the standard applicable to residential
wood heaters and are not required to meet any testing, performance, or emission standards.
Notable findings of the New York Report include:
• While advertised as a clean economical way to heat one’s house and water, OWBs may
be among the dirtiest and least economical modes of residential heating, especially when
improperly used;
Petition to EPA by NY, CT, MD, MA, MI, NJ, VT and NESCAUM
August 11, 2005
• Even when used properly, OWBs emit, on an average per hour basis, about 4 times as
much PM 2.5 as conventional wood stoves, about 12 times as much PM 2.5 as EPAcertified
wood stoves, 1000 times more PM 2.5 than oil furnaces, and 1800 times more
PM 2.5 than gas furnaces;
• When OWBs are used improperly to burn wet or treated wood, scrap, or garbage, they
generate even more smoke and emit additional toxic chemicals;
• The pollutants emitted by OWBs can cause or contribute to short-term health harms such
as eye, nose, throat, and lung irritation, coughing and shortness of breath, and long-term
health effects such as asthma, heart and lung disease, and cancer;
• The generally short chimneys and reduced draft of OWBs fail to disperse emissions
adequately and can cause smoky conditions at or near ground level;
• OWBs are generally more expensive to install than comparable heating sources using oil,
or gas, or indoor wood stoves, and may be more expensive to operate depending on the
availability and price of dry seasoned wood;
• OWBs do not currently have to meet federal or state performance emission standards;
• The absence of any federal regulations has led to various state and local efforts to
regulate OWBs.
Since the problems associated with OWBs are widespread and exist across much of the
northern U.S., it is sensible for the federal government to enact federal standards of
performance, as it has with respect to indoor wood heaters, so as to avoid the development of a
patchwork of state and local regulations.
Section 111(b)(1)(A) requires EPA to include in the listing of categories of stationary
sources under section 111 a category that “causes, or contributes significantly to, air pollution
which may reasonably be anticipated to endanger public health and welfare.” The findings in the
New York Report establish that OWBs should be listed. Accordingly, the EPA should
promulgate regulations for OWBs under section 111(b)(1)(B), establishing standards of
performance that reflect the degree of emission limitation achievable through the best system of
emission reduction that has been adequately demonstrated. 42 U.S.C. § 7411(a)(1). Consistent
with the general framework of the Act, such federal regulations should serve as a “floor,”
allowing states or municipalities to enact more stringent regulations as necessary to combat
particularized local air quality problems.
The time has come for EPA to regulate emissions from OWBs in order to protect public
health and the environment. Therefore, please consider this letter to be a formal request pursuant
Petition to EPA by NY, CT, MD, MA, MI, NJ, VT and NESCAUM
August 11, 2005
to the Administrative Procedure Act, 5 U.S.C. § 553(e), for a rulemaking to list OWBs as a
category of stationary sources and to establish standards for emissions from new OWBs.
Sincerely,
ELIOT SPITZER
Attorney General
State of New York
On behalf of:
RICHARD BLUMENTHAL
Attorney General
State of Connecticut
KENDL P. PHILBRICK
Secretary
Maryland Department of the Environment
J. JOSEPH CURRAN, JR.
Attorney General of Maryland
THOMAS F. REILLY
Attorney General
Commonwealth of Massachusetts
STEVEN E. CHESTER
Director
Michigan Department of Environmental Quality
PETER C. HARVEY
Attorney General
State of New Jersey
WILLIAM H. SORRELL
Attorney General
State of Vermont
ARTHUR N. MARIN
Executive Director
Northeast States for Coordinated Air Use
Management (NESCAUM)
 
People touting the wood usage of an OWB is exagerated. I used the example of miller1. He lives in roughly the same climate and uses nowhere near 15-18 cords of wood per heating season. Other OWB owners have chimed in on this thread claimiming that they use nowhere near the amount of wood that nonOWB users are claiming......That is an exageration!

Stories of huge gut wrenching clouds of smoke pouring out of the chimneys is an exageration.

Those pics in my post are of rotted, bug infested wood burning, yet you claim that burning such wood will, and I quote "I agree, when fed well seasoned wood they don't smoke all that bad. When fed green, bug infested, rotting wood they will smoke bad like any other wood burning device."


I burn the rotted, stuff now and save the good stuff for colder weather.

People naturally want to think what they have is best.

You said..........I agree, when fed well seasoned wood they don't smoke all that bad. When fed green, bug infested, rotting wood they will smoke bad like any other wood burning device. What stops people from doing this in stoves, furnaces, and boilers? Safety. It is unsafe to burn wood like that without the risk of a future chimney fire. Whereas on the other hand people will claim that the ability to burn this wood is a "feature" of an OWB."


It is a feature. A safety feature perhaps. We don't worry about chimney fires.

Your neighbor uses his OWB to burn green wood. Thankfully you don't have a problem with the smell as others have. But you need to understand, neighbors, or just plain people in general, like to complain about what other neighbors are doing.

They complain about dogs barking, chickens crowing, property lines, ATV noise, the smell of cows or horses...etc.

We had some neighbors that recently moved here from in town (city folks). One day they approached my wife and I and wanted us to sign a petiton against our other neighbors about one guy's dogs barking and another guy's chickens crowing. We refused.


They seemed a little upset that we wouldn't sign. I told them that those sounds are part of country life and I had no problem with it. If they didn't like it, move back in town.

You see, that is the problem. neighbors just like to complain what the other guy is doing. You always hear people complaining about having neighbors with loud ATVs. Even though the ATV owners ride on their own property. They call it noise polution. Isn't it funny that the complaining neighbor's lawn mower is louder than the ATV?

I'm getting off track here.


You said....."I know I'm being a bit argumentative here and I'm sorry but I just can't get behind logic like that. Just because we can't be as efficient as a fossil fuels doesn't mean we should just give up on trying to achieve higher efficiency. That kind of logic totally ignores the fact that wood is a cheaper fuel source for heating purposes.

There are efficiency gains to be had in burning wood and to ignore them is just a cop out."

My logic is, there are those "green everything eco whacko's" that would have a problem with you. They'd say your gassifier creates polution and that you shouldn't have it.

They might advise you to switch to solar or wind technology or something like that. Heat with natural gas maybe, its more "efficient" causes less polution? Isn't that the same thing you are telling OWB owners?

Hopefully one of your neighbors will have a problem listening to your chainsaw in the back yard. Is it fair for you to create noise polution so that your neighbor can't even listen to the birds sing from his very own back porch? Why should you be allowed to disturb the whole neighborhood's peace and quiet.


I know I'm being a little too critical. I'm just trying to make the point, that neighbors just complain and are never happy unless they are complaining.


We had a neighbor complaining about another neighbor's horses smelling. Its that bad. People just like to complain.



Thank God my closest neighbor is about 600 ft away.


Amen Brother, I would like to add more to this, but in no way could i get the point across any better!

+++:chainsaw:
 
After reading nine pages of somewhat bitter disagreements between woodburners...(I assume we're all wood burners?) If all of us OWB guys add a 10 foot extension to our units we would have half the arguments we have on here!



Sarcasm here... so your twenty five foot chimney doesn't bother your neighbors a half mile down the road, but my twelve foot tall chimney cannot reach the changes in altitude it needs before reaching the same distance.



I am in my second year using my OWB, but am still not convinced that it was the way to go!

Not because it burns too much wood! It is comparable to other wood sources i've used in the past

Not because it smokes too much...The last Ashley wood stove i had definately smoked more than my OWB

It is mainly beacuse of the cost... I have close to 12,000 total in my unit, when i could have had two real nice wood furnaces... one in the basement of the house and one in the garage for around 5,000 that would have done the same job (minus the free hot water).

If I had to burn wood in the house again (living qtrs./ not the basement) there would be no second thoughts, due to having a family that seems to be plagued with wood smoke allergies.

Overall I am very happy with my OWB, even though it's only eighty feet from the house, my wife and 3 kids never complain about the smoke and neither do my neighbors (though there are none close)

I do burn green wood, punk wood, rotten wood, seasoned wood, dried wood, occasional trash, and about anything outside of tires that will burn. (last time i checked in my area of the country it's still legal to have burn barrels (trash),
why not do it in a safer more contained area, like the (OWB)?

Like I said, I am not totally convinced I made the right choice, but so far am very happy with the OWB heating a 200 year old completely uninsulated solid brick home. Coincidently, when i bought it there was atleast one fire place per room...I know for a fact i'm burnin' less wood than that, while at the same time heating my uninsulated 18'x73' work shop with an 18' peak ceiling and my water!


One last thought...How can anyone compare any of these heating sources?
For example...
I currently heat with the biggest OWB Burnrite offers...
What if I changed to the smallest?
What if i went with a Central Boiler or a Cadillac, or Timberwolf etc. in any of their variety of sizes?
What if I heat with a wood stove and gas or electric or oil or etc?
Or any combination of the above?
The list just goes on and on!

We truly will never have an answer to all our questions unless we could take a single house under the same circumstances and compare each and every heat source available along with a combination of heat sources!

This is truly a comparison that will never be answered to the depth that we all desire!
 
Good post ToyFarm.
It's obvious that some feel strongly about their opinions.
Properly done there are several methods we all can burn wood to heat our homes.
True....life's expierences shape our ideals...opinions...I do believe we all are in the same boat.
Having a discussion is great ie...less the attacks.....maybe next year when the owb vs stove thread comes up we can all play a cleaner game.
 
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Gixxer says... How can you honestly, ethically, and truthfully recommend your stove over another without all of the information? I do understand your passion for Yukon stoves since selling them directly influences your income, but that is not exactly an "apples to apples" argument with any validity at all. One might conclude that you are a little biased toward Yukon and wood stoves in general, not necessarily due to performance, but because of personal financial reasons.


OK....it's all about the money...ya got me Gix old buddie..LOL
Say Gix...God is my driver and when I say something...I'm believing it.
Sounds to me like your questioning me.
I make the same amount of money either way you slice it around here.
Unless of coarse if I do not punch in and put in my day helping people.
I'm not for anything (stoves/furnaces) that burns wood.
I'm for efficient appliances that burn wood.
It can be an owb or a furnace or a stove, but I can see how you could assume.....


Mike....you bet our furnace can be problematic.
I see mis installs all of the time. I see mis use too.
Wet wood you name it.Oversized flues,contractors that do not install the furnace as per spec.
I also will say that having over 35 years of expierence building furnaces allows our company the hindsight to make changes in material to get the furnace to last longer like adding 304 grade stainless to the seconday ht. exchangers and beefing up the fireboxes, but I also know many customers have gotten over 30 years out of the old furnaces.
These are customers that took care of their furnace and operated it as intended.

I also know that if it is a mechanical thing...it will break down.There will be a failure rate.
To say it will last forever is a crock...we all know that.

Now we were talking differences.
I have pointed out negative things about boilers.
I believe at the end of the day an efficient warm air furnace properly ducted into the home with A/C and a hepa system is a much finer set up than an OWB with in floor heat.


Well, obviously someone is still stewing. Nothing like waiting a month...taking some quotes out of context...throwing a couple more jabs...taking the religious pulpit...then putting a spin on it saying hopefully in the future we can have a "cleaner" discussion without "attacks." I'll keep my religious beliefs to myself, or express them in an appropriate forum, not a wood burning forum. God is your driver...when YOU say something YOU believe it. Is that because you believe God speaks through you or are you contradicting your previous post explaining how un-informed you are about other heating devices? I do not argue the fact that you believe everything you say. However, you were the one to point out several weeks ago at the beginning of this thread that you don't have all the information about your competition. You, yourself, were the one to post that you aren't informed! I simply pointed out the lack of validity to one of your arguments (way, way back), the fact it wasn't apples to apples, your motivations in your recommendations on wood stoves, the fact (of your own admittance) you are not knowledgeable in the industry other than Yukon stoves, and asked a couple of simple questions.

As far as the statistics, we all know how easily they can be skewed to one side or the other. I do, however, believe there needs to be some type of regulation on OWB's. People have been abusing their privilege with OWB's, upsetting neighbors, and polluting a world we all have to share. With regulations and awareness comes innovation and invention. Wood stoves have not always been EPA regulated and now that they are look at the advancements in efficiency and pollution control. The same will follow in the case of OWB's. They keep making the mouse trap better. They have to, after all, the politicians, in reality, want us to continue to rely on fossil fuels. If you don't believe that, look at where their money is invested and who pays for their retirement homes, or should I say, mansions/ranches.

Well, there you go, all set-up for another offensive. Since I don't have to drag any wood inside my house I've got some extra time, I'll be right here waiting for the next attack. Is it going to take another month for your pressure relief valve to open? It's a comfy 73 degrees in the house and I'm smiling...no bugs crawling on the walls or eating my home...no smoke smell in the house...no ash floating around to irritate my newborn's delicate throat and lungs, no risk of a chimney fire, and since I burn dry wood and have a catalyst stack there isn't even any smoke coming out of the boiler.

Keep regurgitating the same opinions over and over and over. Keep up with your crappie little comments and crappie little jabs. Then take the high road...who me?...I'm religious and I believe everything I say. Kiss a few butts to polish the post off and everything is "all good." We all know you believe a warm air furnace properly ducted, etc. is better than an OWB with in-floor heat. Your sales pitch has been heard over and over and over throughout this thread.

BTW, please do not infer in any manner, joking or otherwise, that we are "buddies." I could tell it was simply a mis-guided attempt at humor and sarcasm, but I do not want to have anything to do with you. Since your obvious affiliation with Yukon, I don't want to have anything to do with them either. I can't speak for everyone, but I believe you should have to advertise through arboristsite appropriately like all the other advertisors, not in an informative thread knocking the competition driving home your sales pitch to further your own/Yukon's sales and financial position.
 
Personally, I see the OWB vs. Wood stove debate as more of a 'class minded' issue.

You've got your class of people who are of perhaps more limited means, perhaps accustomed to living small. Those able and willing to apply small solutions to small problems (unfortunately sometimes even large problems). Those who just like to be as efficient as possible while saving money wherever and whenever they can, and/or who enjoy the wood experience, heating efficiency, working with nature, etc...

And that class of folk, who are of perhaps less limited means, perhaps more accustomed to living large. Those able and willing to apply large solutions to large problems (unfortunately sometimes even small problems). Those who like to enjoy the wood experience to a more limited degree, and perhaps save money over the long haul, having nature work for them, etc...

As a burner of wood my whole life, subjective is it may be, that has simply been my experience.


Either way, we certainly seem to have more in common than indifference.



Blessings in Yeshua
 
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Well, obviously someone is still stewing. Nothing like waiting a month...taking some quotes out of context...throwing a couple more jabs...taking the religious pulpit...then putting a spin on it saying hopefully in the future we can have a "cleaner" discussion without "attacks." I'll keep my religious beliefs to myself, or express them in an appropriate forum, not a wood burning forum. God is your driver...when YOU say something YOU believe it. Is that because you believe God speaks through you or are you contradicting your previous post explaining how un-informed you are about other heating devices? I do not argue the fact that you believe everything you say. However, you were the one to point out several weeks ago at the beginning of this thread that you don't have all the information about your competition. You, yourself, were the one to post that you aren't informed! I simply pointed out the lack of validity to one of your arguments (way, way back), the fact it wasn't apples to apples, your motivations in your recommendations on wood stoves, the fact (of your own admittance) you are not knowledgeable in the industry other than Yukon stoves, and asked a couple of simple questions.

As far as the statistics, we all know how easily they can be skewed to one side or the other. I do, however, believe there needs to be some type of regulation on OWB's. People have been abusing their privilege with OWB's, upsetting neighbors, and polluting a world we all have to share. With regulations and awareness comes innovation and invention. Wood stoves have not always been EPA regulated and now that they are look at the advancements in efficiency and pollution control. The same will follow in the case of OWB's. They keep making the mouse trap better. They have to, after all, the politicians, in reality, want us to continue to rely on fossil fuels. If you don't believe that, look at where their money is invested and who pays for their retirement homes, or should I say, mansions/ranches.

Well, there you go, all set-up for another offensive. Since I don't have to drag any wood inside my house I've got some extra time, I'll be right here waiting for the next attack. Is it going to take another month for your pressure relief valve to open? It's a comfy 73 degrees in the house and I'm smiling...no bugs crawling on the walls or eating my home...no smoke smell in the house...no ash floating around to irritate my newborn's delicate throat and lungs, no risk of a chimney fire, and since I burn dry wood and have a catalyst stack there isn't even any smoke coming out of the boiler.

Keep regurgitating the same opinions over and over and over. Keep up with your crappie little comments and crappie little jabs. Then take the high road...who me?...I'm religious and I believe everything I say. Kiss a few butts to polish the post off and everything is "all good." We all know you believe a warm air furnace properly ducted, etc. is better than an OWB with in-floor heat. Your sales pitch has been heard over and over and over throughout this thread.

BTW, please do not infer in any manner, joking or otherwise, that we are "buddies." I could tell it was simply a mis-guided attempt at humor and sarcasm, but I do not want to have anything to do with you. Since your obvious affiliation with Yukon, I don't want to have anything to do with them either. I can't speak for everyone, but I believe you should have to advertise through arboristsite appropriately like all the other advertisors, not in an informative thread knocking the competition driving home your sales pitch to further your own/Yukon's sales and financial position.




Amen!!!
 
Well, obviously someone is still stewing. Nothing like waiting a month...taking some quotes out of context...throwing a couple more jabs...taking the religious pulpit...then putting a spin on it saying hopefully in the future we can have a "cleaner" discussion without "attacks." I'll keep my religious beliefs to myself, or express them in an appropriate forum, not a wood burning forum. God is your driver...when YOU say something YOU believe it. Is that because you believe God speaks through you or are you contradicting your previous post explaining how un-informed you are about other heating devices? I do not argue the fact that you believe everything you say. However, you were the one to point out several weeks ago at the beginning of this thread that you don't have all the information about your competition. You, yourself, were the one to post that you aren't informed! I simply pointed out the lack of validity to one of your arguments (way, way back), the fact it wasn't apples to apples, your motivations in your recommendations on wood stoves, the fact (of your own admittance) you are not knowledgeable in the industry other than Yukon stoves, and asked a couple of simple questions.

As far as the statistics, we all know how easily they can be skewed to one side or the other. I do, however, believe there needs to be some type of regulation on OWB's. People have been abusing their privilege with OWB's, upsetting neighbors, and polluting a world we all have to share. With regulations and awareness comes innovation and invention. Wood stoves have not always been EPA regulated and now that they are look at the advancements in efficiency and pollution control. The same will follow in the case of OWB's. They keep making the mouse trap better. They have to, after all, the politicians, in reality, want us to continue to rely on fossil fuels. If you don't believe that, look at where their money is invested and who pays for their retirement homes, or should I say, mansions/ranches.

Well, there you go, all set-up for another offensive. Since I don't have to drag any wood inside my house I've got some extra time, I'll be right here waiting for the next attack. Is it going to take another month for your pressure relief valve to open? It's a comfy 73 degrees in the house and I'm smiling...no bugs crawling on the walls or eating my home...no smoke smell in the house...no ash floating around to irritate my newborn's delicate throat and lungs, no risk of a chimney fire, and since I burn dry wood and have a catalyst stack there isn't even any smoke coming out of the boiler.

Keep regurgitating the same opinions over and over and over. Keep up with your crappie little comments and crappie little jabs. Then take the high road...who me?...I'm religious and I believe everything I say. Kiss a few butts to polish the post off and everything is "all good." We all know you believe a warm air furnace properly ducted, etc. is better than an OWB with in-floor heat. Your sales pitch has been heard over and over and over throughout this thread.

BTW, please do not infer in any manner, joking or otherwise, that we are "buddies." I could tell it was simply a mis-guided attempt at humor and sarcasm, but I do not want to have anything to do with you. Since your obvious affiliation with Yukon, I don't want to have anything to do with them either. I can't speak for everyone, but I believe you should have to advertise through arboristsite appropriately like all the other advertisors, not in an informative thread knocking the competition driving home your sales pitch to further your own/Yukon's sales and financial position.

Rep, rep, & MORE REP!
:cheers:
 
I quess I should respond....
This was a this vs that thread.
It's too bad some folks took this thread personal to make attacks.
I will continue to be a voice for warm air instead of hot water heating.
There are many folks wanting to hear both sides of the debate.
It is unfortunate that certain folks think that just because I rep for a company that what I'm saying is motovated by money.....it's not....I really believe in what I've said through my own expierences not what some gov.agency has said via some report. Although I posted a few of these items thinking that it may be more believeable if someone else had said it like the Gov...but as some have said that doesn't hold water either.

A good friend once said "you'll never defeat the online dragon"...he was right.
When anyone can plop down in front of their putor and type anything they want...you just can't defend against the ignorance or arogance.

Oh if you want reps for kicking the stones of a salesman....you can have the thousands I have if it'll make you feel like the bigger man.
 
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God!!!!! Somebody owes me that half an hour of my life back. Can't believe I read this whole thread.

I have a FIsher in the basement with a fabricated Plenum over it. I ties into my cold air return in the basement directly above the stove. The heat goes through the ductwork into my den and them circulated by two 52'' fans throughout the 1552 square foot house. We have to close the bedrooms during the day so it dosen't get too hot in there but the kitchen is a bit cool since it is an addition off the back of the house.

I will be purchasing a hotblast in the spring when tax season comes around and getting rid of my oil fired furnace and replacing it with an airhandler and new heat pump. That will be the best fit for me since it never gets below single digit temps here in southern VA and I cant afford a boiler. I always wanted one but I cant justify buying one for now. I do want the flexibility that the furnace will give me so I have to side with the fish man on this one. Although I will not buy one of his furnaces because I cant afford it right yet. I think the tractor supply hotblast or the 1600 dollar clayton will be just fine.

You guys argue just as much as the guys on the automotive forums I frequent. We are all doing the same thing here.... Sticking it to the man!!!!!! Please wipe the sand out of your vaginas and get on with the wood burning.:laugh:
 
You guys argue just as much as the guys on the automotive forums I frequent. We are all doing the same thing here.... Sticking it to the man!!!!!! Please wipe the sand out of your vaginas and get on with the wood burning.:laugh:

Priceless! Too funny man,you hit it right on the head,bunch of crybabys posting on this thread. I just about spit out my coffee when I read this post!
 

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