OWB v. Wood Stove

[giXXer]

Gixxer, sorry took so long to reply, tons going on. I have a thermometer TEE'd into the return at the boiler. I have the tube heat exchanger for the hot water heater as my first stop, then to the 40"X24" heat exchanger in the ductwork. My freind is in the commercial HVAC business and sized the heat exchanger size to the flow of my 5 ton blower so as to not be a restriction. A fellow on this site said I'm getting about 150,000 BTU's off of it. I will change my blower speed to it's lowest setting. I have a Taco 014 and my boiler sits 225' from the house with a 1"PEX. I lose about 4-5 deg (which I think is good) at return on boiler when furnace is not calling for heat but will have a 50 deg. difference when it blower runs. My flow is only about 6 gpm which I think is terrible. I expected much more from that larger of pump and was considering adding another one at the boiler return so I would push and pull. Theroretically if I increase my flow than I will have higher return temperatures. I have a CB 6048 which holds 400 gallons similar to yours. Also, I have 1" pex. Any ideas would help greatly. I want to add 400sqft of floor heat as well as a exchanger in the garage, just afraid of having 100 deg. water coming back to the boiler. Maybe it doesn't matter. I run my boiler as hot as I can, on at 185 off at 195, will have return water as low as 130. Guess a little long winded, let me know what you would do?

Since our systems are so similar I wouldn't think adding another heat X would be a problem. Adding another heat X AND in floor heat might be too much, especially 20X20 of piping in the ground. Of course, using the second output on your boiler would require burying insulated pex to the house again which would be cost prohibitive and a pain. If it were me I would install the heat X and the in floor piping on the same loop and try it. Worst case scenario would be if it is too much demand on the system you could bypass the in floor heat and just use the hanging unit. This may sound stupid and wasteful to not use the in floor after installing it, but at least it's in the ground and could be used in the future with a different approach. If you don't put it in (like me) prior to pouring the concrete you'll never be able to. I was swayed away from in floor for the garage because I don't heat it everyday through the winter and I have been told that heating quickly can't be achieved with the piping in concrete. Now that it's done, I wish I had it. A buddy has it in his garage and laying on the ground to work on snowplows, snowmobiles, log splitters, Jeeps, etc. has never been so nice. Since he doesn't get along with his wife very well his garage is always 70 degrees and stays that way all winter so it works well for him. His garage is also under a large part of his home so the heat rises into the living areas.

I am more of a trial and error type of guy. I've had great success (some might say luck) just using common sense in the past, but also have been bitten in the a$$ by some of my hair brained ideas. I'm also not very "algebraically inclined." Your HVAC buddy or mtfallsmikey might be of more help calculating if it will work or not. Luckily, if you break it down, these things are pretty simple animals and yours is certainly large enough to handle the task at hand. I don't think 6 GPM of 100 degree water coming into 400 gallons with a burn barrel that size is going to be a problem. You'll burn a little more wood, but it might be worth it for you to have a nice and toasty garage and garage floor.

 

[giXXer]

$2400 for Thermopex....our SJ125 cost that much.
What did the OWB cost you?

Was that comment/question actually meant to be helpful or just argumentative? You're in the business, you know what pex costs, you know what OWB's cost. If you don't, you haven't done your homework to educate yourself on the industry you make a living off of. How can you honestly, ethically, and truthfully recommend your stove over another without all of the information? I do understand your passion for Yukon stoves since selling them directly influences your income, but that is not exactly an "apples to apples" argument with any validity at all. One might conclude that you are a little biased toward Yukon and wood stoves in general, not necessarily due to performance, but because of personal financial reasons.

Yes! Wood stoves are great! I wouldn't give up the one we have in the cabin. People that own them typically love them. I believe you will find the same thing with OWB's. Differences in needs, wants, budgets, and applications lead to differences in buying decisions. Indoor wood stoves are not a perfect fit for everyone just as OWB's are not for everyone. As a steward of wood burning and an industry "professional" I would think you should be more educated on the topic and be held to a higher standard of knowledge than the rest of us. How can you honestly and ethically sway a customer to spend their hard earned dollar on your product not knowing anything about other products available?

 

[wampum]

I do not have an OWB,I also have no problem with them,any time you cheat OPEC,I am for it. I have a question,I have one of those oil filled electric heaters. Is it possible to replace,the water with oil,and stop any freeze up problems,if you lose power. Ma-be even run a coil of oil lines thru a water tank,to heat your hot water. If this is possible,would the oil not stay hotter longer then water. Also not using water,would you not have less,corrosion? I have no idea if this would work,just asking a question.

 

[CrappieKeith]

Was that comment/question actually meant to be helpful or just argumentative? You're in the business, you know what pex costs, you know what OWB's cost. If you don't, you haven't done your homework to educate yourself on the industry you make a living off of. How can you honestly, ethically, and truthfully recommend your stove over another without all of the information? I do understand your passion for Yukon stoves since selling them directly influences your income, but that is not exactly an "apples to apples" argument with any validity at all. One might conclude that you are a little biased toward Yukon and wood stoves in general, not necessarily due to performance, but because of personal financial reasons.

Yes! Wood stoves are great! I wouldn't give up the one we have in the cabin. People that own them typically love them. I believe you will find the same thing with OWB's. Differences in needs, wants, budgets, and applications lead to differences in buying decisions. Indoor wood stoves are not a perfect fit for everyone just as OWB's are not for everyone. As a steward of wood burning and an industry "professional" I would think you should be more educated on the topic and be held to a higher standard of knowledge than the rest of us. How can you honestly and ethically sway a customer to spend their hard earned dollar on your product not knowing anything about other products available?

Oh great now my honesty and integrity is brought up again.
To be honest I don't have the time nor the inclination to know every little detail about all furances,stoves,boilers on the market.
I do know the furnace competitors fairly well...well enough to make out the differences and to be to explain what these difference mean to us.

If folks are needing owb's or indoor water furnaces I'll refer them out to others that are pros in that industry like Garn or Tarm or Heatmore.
Of coarse I'm biased towards Yukons.
Show me a better warm air furnace that makes wood/oil or wood gas furnaces.
I believe them to be the best out there through my 13 years of searches.
I did not know the cost of pex tubing but to go so far as to say I don't know anything and how could I sway someone ....
Funny how guys can take shots without any responsibility.

This thread was about the differences....we have been talking about just the ....differences.
Taking cheap shots at a guy who is here to help discover these differences makes you look silly.
It's funny how personal some guys make this kind of thread.
It's not about you or your buying decision.
OWB's work great for some people...oh wait now I'm repeating myself.

Was I lying when I made points? No
This is not a personal attack..we are talking difference/issues.
I was talking in general terms too.
Some products are better than others.
Wood furnaces have there bad points too.

 

[blackdogon57]

When you include your personal name, company name, phone mumber, company website , etc on every single post that you make you open yourself up to people questioning your integrity when it comes to threads like this one.

 

[Windwalker7]

One of the reasons people burry their pex lines is to get below the frost line to help prevent freezing.
While this may not prevent freezing totally in all areas it certainly helps.

I built my own insulated pex lines also!

As for a generator, we have one but I have never used it for the OWB.

I was considering powering it with solar power.

Take a deep cycle trolling battery and hook up a solar panel to recharge it. Maybe even two panels.

Also hook up a power inverter to the battery.

This should be enough to power the pump for a few days until the electric comes back on.

No worry of lines freezing and no generator, how about that!

While this may not power the fan on your existing furnace, it will prevent spending all those $$$ to dig up your frozen lines like some are saying.

 

[Windwalker7]

We have about evry heat type imaginable in our home.

Oil furnace

Electric baseboard

Indoor wood burner

Propane fire place

OWB

The OWB is hooked up to the forced air of the oil furnace and also radiant floor heating in the great room.

So if we ever get the blizzard of the century and the power is knocked out, I guess I'll be heating with the indoor wood burner and propane fire place.

 

[greengiant]

Maybe this should be a different thread, but it seems like everyone has their OWB hooked to a forced air system vs. hot water baseboard. Is that by design? Anyone have experience with both and have a recommendation as to which they liked?

 

[swyman]

$2400 for Thermopex....our SJ125 cost that much.
What did the OWB cost you?

THis is my 3rd season, paid $6725 for the CB 6048 (which was the cheapest I could find at that time, I think they are around $8K now) and the Thermopex was $10/foot, I bought 240'. I did not price the 1 1/4" but wish I would have installed it.

 

[swyman]

How much does it cost to have a chimney built?

How much did your wood splitter cost you?

How much does it cost you to heat your hot water?

Is your garage heated?

Is your work shop heated?

Do you pay a chimney sweep or climb up on the roof and do it yourself?


:greenchainsaw:

I built my own splitter that attaches to my Bobcat, it has a 5" bore cyl. 48" stroke sitting on a 12" I-beam that is 15' long. I had most of the parts, put $300 into it.
My boiler heats my hot water so cost is $0.00
I don't yet have my garage heated, my shop is heated but uses a 450K BTU fuel oil furnace
I need not clean the chimney, it is attached to the boiler which sits 225' from the house

 

[swyman]

Gixxer, I misled you on the floor heat. I have a 400 sqft kitchen which has 14' ceilings. I have 2 heat runs in there but that room is always about 5 deg cooler than the rest of the house. It is all tile flooring and thought I would try the 1/2" pex in between the joists? I have heard they work well. Just thought it would add more comfort to that room. Anyone out there done this?

 

[Steve NW WI]

One more thing, my stove has exactly 4 moving parts, 2 doors and two dampers. I don't forsee any of them failing any time soon.

I realize that an OWB can run off one pump, but I've seen a lot of elaborate setups on here.

My maintenance is dump ashes and inspect/clean as needed chimney. I will also add replace firebricks occasionally, since I have some to do now. What is the maintenance schedule on an OWB?

I'm in favor of more OWBs being sold. One of our major customers at work is Cummins Power Generation (formerly Onan). They sell a TON of home sized backup power units, something I don't need. I do have access to a 3500W Honda that me and 3 friends bought to power the TV and satellite in the ice shack, but they might need it worse than me.

 

[giXXer]

Gixxer, I misled you on the floor heat. I have a 400 sqft kitchen which has 14' ceilings. I have 2 heat runs in there but that room is always about 5 deg cooler than the rest of the house. It is all tile flooring and thought I would try the 1/2" pex in between the joists? I have heard they work well. Just thought it would add more comfort to that room. Anyone out there done this?

Doesn't the pipe get installed above the sub-floor, under the tile in most installs. I would imagine you would have to insulate under the pipes really well to make it effective.

 

[giXXer]

Oh great now my honesty and integrity is brought up again.
To be honest I don't have the time nor the inclination to know every little detail about all furances,stoves,boilers on the market.
I do know the furnace competitors fairly well...well enough to make out the differences and to be to explain what these difference mean to us.

If folks are needing owb's or indoor water furnaces I'll refer them out to others that are pros in that industry like Garn or Tarm or Heatmore.
Of coarse I'm biased towards Yukons.
Show me a better warm air furnace that makes wood/oil or wood gas furnaces.
I believe them to be the best out there through my 13 years of searches.
I did not know the cost of pex tubing but to go so far as to say I don't know anything and how could I sway someone ....
Funny how guys can take shots without any responsibility.

This thread was about the differences....we have been talking about just the ....differences.
Taking cheap shots at a guy who is here to help discover these differences makes you look silly.
It's funny how personal some guys make this kind of thread.
It's not about you or your buying decision.
OWB's work great for some people...oh wait now I'm repeating myself.

Was I lying when I made points? No
This is not a personal attack..we are talking difference/issues.
I was talking in general terms too.
Some products are better than others.
Wood furnaces have there bad points too.

Take shots? Nice spin on the situation as that is exactly what you have done. Your points on page two have been heard. Your latter points and criticisms as well. Then a legitamite, somewhat off-topic, question is asked by swyman and you take your jab on pex then again later in the same thread on the possible disasters of OWB's.

You claim to be here to help so I'll ask the question again. Was your post seriously meant to be helpful or just argumentative? If helpful, exactly how?

I understand why you haven't actually addressed my post. Cheap shots they certainly were not. I firmly believe if you consider yourself a "professional" you should be well educated in your industry, including details. You don't agree with that. Remember? You don't have the "time or inclination." If stating what I believe (the whole professional knowing his chosen industry thing) is a cheap shot that makes me look silly...well, I guess I look silly.

Honesty and integrity being brought up? I had no idea yours have been questioned in this forum before. I'm shocked! None of my comments in my previous post have been meant to be cheap shots. Question your motive and your knowledge in your chosen field? Maybe. No need to answer my questions, they were rhetorical as you have already answered them very clearly in your previous posts. I am glad, however, that you find this conversation so "funny." After all, this forum is meant to be informational AND entertaining! I personally think it's "funny" how some people think they can come on here and push their products and belittle the competitors products.

 

[Butch(OH)]

Maybe this should be a different thread, but it seems like everyone has their OWB hooked to a forced air system vs. hot water baseboard. Is that by design? Anyone have experience with both and have a recommendation as to which they liked?

I think most people merge the OWB into their current heating system for cost reasons. Around here that means forced air the great majority of cases. In my case the house is fully and correctly ducted so the forced air works great. That is not always the case, lots of older houses around here never had proper ducting installed when central heat was installed many years ago so base boards might be a better way to go? I am going into year 4 with mine and on the coldest windiest day we have had so far my system still has not been even close to taxed for delivery of BTUs. I am very happy with my OWB/forced air setup.

 

[giXXer]

I think most people merge the OWB into their current heating system for cost reasons. Around here that means forced air the great majority of cases. In my case the house is fully and correctly ducted so the forced air works great. That is not always the case, lots of older houses around here never had proper ducting installed when central heat was installed many years ago so base boards might be a better way to go? I am going into year 4 with mine and on the coldest windiest day we have had so far my system still has not been even close to taxed for delivery of BTUs. I am very happy with my OWB/forced air setup.

I agree. Even though central A/C is not all that popular in my area a majority of the homes are heated by forced air systems. Forced air with duct work is typically quite a bit less expensive than running all of the plumbing, cost of the baseboard units, and cost of a natural gas or propane boiler. I also agree with Butch that most of the OWB's being installed are retro-fits on existing homes. I already had a 2 year old 98% efficiency forced air propane furnace and central air installed so the decision to use a forced air heat X was an easy one and relatively inexpensive compared to installing baseboard units.

When I was researching OWB's I did find one install with a combination of baseboard units and heat exchangers. One of the 6 Hawken units I looked at and spoke to the owners about uses 2 hanging units and a large furnace with blower motor that has been gutted to house the heat X. This heats his business. His home, which is adjacent to the business, previously had a fuel oil boiler with baseboard heat so he removed the old boiler and tied the wood stove in. Since he does not use A/C in his business and was sick of hearing this huge blower motor fire up to heat the 3-4,000 S.F. space when he was on the phone or watching T.V. he converted everything to baseboard heat. He likes how the baseboards radiate the heat and how their silent operation is. It looked to me like a pretty expensive conversion considering he uses all copper on the inside. He simply justified it by saying it's only a one time expense paid upfront that he gets to enjoy for years to come.

 

[Windwalker7]

Gixxer, I misled you on the floor heat. I have a 400 sqft kitchen which has 14' ceilings. I have 2 heat runs in there but that room is always about 5 deg cooler than the rest of the house. It is all tile flooring and thought I would try the 1/2" pex in between the joists? I have heard they work well. Just thought it would add more comfort to that room. Anyone out there done this?

Yes, I have done it.

We had an addition built on our home. The room is 24x30 with an 18ft cathedral ceiling and a loft (bedroom) upstairs.

We had a propane fireplace intalled and electric base board to provide some heat We only have one heat duct in that room from the forced air oil furnace. Needless to say, the electric baseboard made our electric bill outragious and the propane fire place had the upstairs bed room roasting hot even with ceiling fans on.

Anyway, we self installed radiant floor heat in that room when we got the OWB.

The water comes in from the OWB to a water to air HX in the plenum, then comes out and goes right into a water to water HX for the radiant floor. I have a mixing valve to keep the water temp to about 130*.

I made two 20ft manifolds with 5 nipples on each manifold. (One output, one return) Each nipple has about a 160ft run of 1/2" pex run double between the floor joists in the crawl space below that room.

My setup is like the parrellle header diagram in this link

http://www.radiantcompany.com/details/joists.shtml

I made my own aluminum tranfer plates out of a roll of flashing. I cut them 16" x6" and had a friend that made a jig for his log splitter to put the groove into the flashing.

I must say, that I am proud of the setup and that it does work very, very well. The carpeted floor reads about 85* with the infra red thermometer. Feels good on those cold evenings, let me tell you.

Sorry to get off topic, just wanted to answer the question.

 

[mtfallsmikey]

Since our systems are so similar I wouldn't think adding another heat X would be a problem. Adding another heat X AND in floor heat might be too much, especially 20X20 of piping in the ground. Of course, using the second output on your boiler would require burying insulated pex to the house again which would be cost prohibitive and a pain. If it were me I would install the heat X and the in floor piping on the same loop and try it. Worst case scenario would be if it is too much demand on the system you could bypass the in floor heat and just use the hanging unit. This may sound stupid and wasteful to not use the in floor after installing it, but at least it's in the ground and could be used in the future with a different approach. If you don't put it in (like me) prior to pouring the concrete you'll never be able to. I was swayed away from in floor for the garage because I don't heat it everyday through the winter and I have been told that heating quickly can't be achieved with the piping in concrete. Now that it's done, I wish I had it. A buddy has it in his garage and laying on the ground to work on snowplows, snowmobiles, log splitters, Jeeps, etc. has never been so nice. Since he doesn't get along with his wife very well his garage is always 70 degrees and stays that way all winter so it works well for him. His garage is also under a large part of his home so the heat rises into the living areas.

I am more of a trial and error type of guy. I've had great success (some might say luck) just using common sense in the past, but also have been bitten in the a$$ by some of my hair brained ideas. I'm also not very "algebraically inclined." Your HVAC buddy or mtfallsmikey might be of more help calculating if it will work or not. Luckily, if you break it down, these things are pretty simple animals and yours is certainly large enough to handle the task at hand. I don't think 6 GPM of 100 degree water coming into 400 gallons with a burn barrel that size is going to be a problem. You'll burn a little more wood, but it might be worth it for you to have a nice and toasty garage and garage floor.

That may work...keep in mind the water temp. for the radiant will be around 80-110 deg. Worth a try. All of the calculations I listed are common knowledge, and industry standards, I don't/won't do heat loss or floor calcs for people unless I can physically see the install, or some blueprints. It's really simple to do. Again, the main mistake both DIY'ers and OWB installers make IMHO is to pipe all of the HX's and/or an existing hydronic system in series. Each HX is series will see a progressivly lower supply temp. The primary/secondary method uses a primary loop, each HX,etc. is piped in a separate (secondary) loop, with a separate circulator and/or zone valve. This allows using a smaller primary circ.,less head to work against, more flow, and in general a very responsive system....Buy the book I mentioned here before, and all will be revealed. Should be required reading for all OWB owners.

 

[mtfallsmikey]

I think most people merge the OWB into their current heating system for cost reasons. Around here that means forced air the great majority of cases. In my case the house is fully and correctly ducted so the forced air works great. That is not always the case, lots of older houses around here never had proper ducting installed when central heat was installed many years ago so base boards might be a better way to go? I am going into year 4 with mine and on the coldest windiest day we have had so far my system still has not been even close to taxed for delivery of BTUs. I am very happy with my OWB/forced air setup.

:agree2:

Only thing is...80% of homes I've seen have crappy, undersized ductwork.....installing contractors using "rules of thumb" (aka SWAG)regardless of house design instead of actually figuring out how many BTU's and CFM of air of heating/cooling they actually need. When I was growing up and learning the trade, HWBB was the norm, forced air was for the smaller, lower-priced homes. I've installed many BB systems and personally think it is the best,most even heat you can have....as in all systems, if installed correctly.

 

[mtfallsmikey]

No splitter...I buy my wood 100$ a full cord cut split and delivered.
I brush my own flue and the liner cost 500$.

I don't have a shop to heat or a garage, but when I build an attached garage my furncae will heat it and my home.


So what does it cost to dig up your lines once they have frozen because you had no power?
Ok so you bought a generator and you may added glycol which costs$$$$
Did you know that glycol reduces your efficiency by another 20% or better?
How do you heat without power...oh that's right generator.What does it cost to run that on gas?
How do you filter air in your home or have A/C add ducting...what did that cost you?
What about the other issue of boilers?
Rotting water jacket,smoke,excessive wood consuption,having to go out to fill it,shoveling the ashes out.

Like Mike said they all have their purpose, which if you look back I said that too.

I was just commenting on pex tubing.
Didn't know it cost that much.

Now...for this post:

Keith, this does sound like a slam on OWB owners, and uncalled for IMO.

Your Yukon HX's can rot out too...ask me how I know.
They can also generate a tremendous amount of creosote as well...
You have to deal with ashes too, just like any other wood/biomass appliance.
Glycol....With floor radiant systems, the loss is factored into system design.
How do you operate the furnace blower when there is no power?...pray for gravity convection?
Generator...I like to run my well pump, lights as well as the OWB.