Do we REALLY want regulatory control?

[lxt]

Dude have you been living in a cave? TV doesnt need me or anyone else to hold his hand but all you need to do is read a few of his posts and see he is the real deal. Go have a look.

As for the trade as a whole. I would love to hear what ideas you have as to how it can be improved across the board. Throw em out there and lets see if you have a few gems of your own.

I dont know TV from adam, nor you! & honestly untill I see some one in action words dont mean a thing!

My main point was in regard to one trying to depict our trade as having similar importance to certain other fields & the thought that it has similar complexities.............which it in no way does!!!!!!

He is a CA (tv that is) held it since 71, honestly unless he has a BA, or Masters in Horticulture or something to do with this field........he is no better than I or anyone else....so in esscence he is being condescending towards CA`s..................what Degree puts him above anyone!! 40yrs is a long time... Like I said I have been trained by people with much more time than that!!! that doesnt make me better than anyone else!

As far as regulations go...........I personally dont care! yes I hate the Hacks & yes maybe we need something! truth is I worry about me!! those who worry so much about regulating something do it for personal gain or to better themselves in a way that they couldnt have done prior to the regulating!

1st you must remember...this is America!! right to pursue life, liberty & happiness.......along with free enterprise!! what will work here may/maynot work over there! boroughs,towns, cities, states, etc.. already follow ANSI standard...atleast some do, those I work for I make aware of the standard...untill those standards are enforced then all we are saying here doesnt matter.......ANSI...should be enough! just needs enforced!

As far as this trade getting recognized like some of the other titles mentioned, like I said....It will have to become a Degree necessary for employment in certain job fields like the others!!!!


LXT................

 

[outofmytree]

:agree2:, pretty much what Ive been saying, the costs associated with it will ruin alot of businesses...the good along with the bad!!!

I believe we need something, but not what outofmytree`s area has dictated! & whether its a likes term or not "money grab"....this is just what any regulation, additional certification, License, etc... will be!!!

I just dont get it, when a business files taxes...they`re registered, when they Incorporate...they`re registered, etc... who & what law should set a minimum standard? in most cases this is why alot of home owners do it themselves!!! yes... with consequences!!!


LXT................

Sorry I just reread this and realised I missed the first paragraph. What ADDITIONAL costs do you mean? The only cost associated with the HRW license I posted previously is less than $20 per year.

I recently tendered for a City pruning contract and took some time to chat with the tender officers after submission. Since engaging a CertV arborist (our highest qualification) they estimate to have saved over a million dollars by changing their pruning practises. A million dollars in one city council dude! There more than 25 city councils in the metropolitan area in Perth!

Guess how the majority of money was saved? By abandoning topping, applying restorative pruning where possible and picking appropriate tree species for confined areas. Sounds like common sense doesnt it.

Once again I say, if you want change but don't want to be run out of town by the " big guys" then do something about it at a local level. Maybe joining ISA would be a good start. Your vote might be enough to tip the scale....

 

[lxt]

Never worked outside Australia so this is news to me. Is it correct that ANYONE can do domestic electrical fitting without a trade certificate? IMO that is insanity. My opinion aside I would like to know if this is actually legal. God help the next owner if the "installer" was colourblind.

I see that you said "on your own property" does this mean you can not perform say, electrical work, for gain or profit without license?

Yes it is....In Pa I can run my own home runs, connect the circuit breakers, etc.. I dont believe I can do the meter connection though??? I can do all the plumbing except for the main connect??? again I dont think so.

Again...as long as it passes code & thats if an inspector shows up to look at it, put it to you this way...I put in my footer framing to build on..called the inspector & he said whats it look like? I know!!, my contractor was like your kidding me...so he gets on the phone, describes the footer before the pour & the inspector says....sounds good..pour away!!

I feel when the codes in place are disregarded & an inspector does like what is mentioned above....heres the problem, this is the corruption Im talking about......you butter the inspectors hand & your work wont matter!

btw..... all my contractors...I knew & they all insisted on inspections & code systems to sign off on their work....I was a grunt helping them!!! thats it!!

TV, im not trying to down play your abilities or anything, Please dont get me wrong!!!....but if you`re a CA with no degree .......you are no better off than me or anyone else, you might be more knowledgeable in some areas..but thats it!! still not comparable to the other titles we discussed earlier!!



LXT................

 

[outofmytree]

Never works like that though, you can't just have a little regulation. The government always over regulates, the only thing you can do is do it as responsible as you can so the gonvernment doesn't meddle.They don't know anything about the businesses they regulate anyways and they only ask people with a one sided political agenda so I say they should stay out of it.

NEVER? In no area, anywhere, ever has there been a reasonable balance between freedom and control? Better start the revolution now then brother.

Ok ok, I was being facetious. I still have to disagree. Either that or what I see on tv and hear from you guys living in the States is bogus. You seem to have a pretty decent place to live (almost as good as Australia) and also have regulations on food, clothing, education, cars, tools and a gajillion other things. Regulation per se is not bad, it is uncontrolled regulation that wears that badge. So fix it. Be an active voice. It is your trade, your industry and your country after all.

 

[outofmytree]

I dont know TV from adam, nor you! & honestly untill I see some one in action words dont mean a thing!

My main point was in regard to one trying to depict our trade as having similar importance to certain other fields & the thought that it has similar complexities.............which it in no way does!!!!!!

He is a CA (tv that is) held it since 71, honestly unless he has a BA, or Masters in Horticulture or something to do with this field........he is no better than I or anyone else....so in esscence he is being condescending towards CA`s..................what Degree puts him above anyone!! 40yrs is a long time... Like I said I have been trained by people with much more time than that!!! that doesnt make me better than anyone else!

As far as regulations go...........I personally dont care! yes I hate the Hacks & yes maybe we need something! truth is I worry about me!! those who worry so much about regulating something do it for personal gain or to better themselves in a way that they couldnt have done prior to the regulating!

1st you must remember...this is America!! right to pursue life, liberty & happiness.......along with free enterprise!! what will work here may/maynot work over there! boroughs,towns, cities, states, etc.. already follow ANSI standard...atleast some do, those I work for I make aware of the standard...untill those standards are enforced then all we are saying here doesnt matter.......ANSI...should be enough! just needs enforced!

As far as this trade getting recognized like some of the other titles mentioned, like I said....It will have to become a Degree necessary for employment in certain job fields like the others!!!!


LXT................

Oops. You said exactly what I said and thats just scary. Now here is the part that hurts. Enforcement can only be applied via ... are you ready for
this....









regulation. Ouch. That hurt. I have not and will not suggest that the standards ALREADY in place are insufficient. They were drafted by groups of people from all over our industry with more experience and credentials than I could ever hope to gain. I have said and will continue to say that ONE component of improving our industry is to ensure EVERYBODY works to those standards. For that you need a piece of paper that says "thou shalt...." and we call those pieces of paper regulations.

 

[lxt]

Sorry I just reread this and realised I missed the first paragraph. What ADDITIONAL costs do you mean? The only cost associated with the HRW license I posted previously is less than $20 per year.

I recently tendered for a City pruning contract and took some time to chat with the tender officers after submission. Since engaging a CertV arborist (our highest qualification) they estimate to have saved over a million dollars by changing their pruning practises. A million dollars in one city council dude! There more than 25 city councils in the metropolitan area in Perth!

Guess how the majority of money was saved? By abandoning topping, applying restorative pruning where possible and picking appropriate tree species for confined areas. Sounds like common sense doesnt it.

Once again I say, if you want change but don't want to be run out of town by the " big guys" then do something about it at a local level. Maybe joining ISA would be a good start. Your vote might be enough to tip the scale...

The additional costs???? you think making a biz confirm to a new ordinance, law, code, etc.. wont cost something???? Dude, this is America, just the paperwork aspects alone would cost "Millions" the entity regulating the field would cost "Millions"...yes jobs might be created but at whos cost.....the taxpayers thats who!! not to mention all the corrupt BS that goes along with it! We have the ANSI standard...just no enforcement!

how much do you think it would cost to "effectively enforce" the Ansi standard?? seriously!! we cant enforce enviromental pollution laws & the EPA & DEP are pretty large & well funded!!

the practices you abandoned are good, however over here those contracts are "BID" on, they have a Spec, you bid pertaining to that spec & the low bid usually wins!!

I am a member of the ISA & several other organizations, WHY? cuz in order to obtain some contracts it is better if you show an affiliation with them rather than not! does it make my biz better?....NO! my work ethic is & always was the same! these type contracts only make up a small% of my biz anyway!!


LXT................

 

[Bearcreek]

Never worked outside Australia so this is news to me. Is it correct that ANYONE can do domestic electrical fitting without a trade certificate? IMO that is insanity. My opinion aside I would like to know if this is actually legal. God help the next owner if the "installer" was colourblind.

I see that you said "on your own property" does this mean you can not perform say, electrical work, for gain or profit without license?

Maybe you're not familiar with residential electrical wiring so just FYI there are only three colors to worry about in the vast majority of houses; black, white and red. Being color blind would have nothing to do with it.

 

[outofmytree]

Maybe you're not familiar with residential electrical wiring so just FYI there are only three colors to worry about in the vast majority of houses; black, white and red. Being color blind would have nothing to do with it.

One of the "silly" regulations we have over here is that all would be Electricians must pass a colour recognition test before they study. I guess somebody thought getting the wires arse about could be problematic.

 

[lxt]

We can not go out & do electrical/plumbing & other trades without a license outside our personal property (atleast not legally)! however there are questionable ways around the license!!

I heard of a few contractors selling Ho`s on stating on the permit that the home owner was performing the work!! this gets around insurance(s) as well the licenses needed to perform the job(s).

sad thing is when the properties were inspected...they passed!! now if the contractor can muster an inspection why not get the license would be my thought? but they think in this way: the license costs money, the Insurances cost money...the renewal fees & time studying for such could be better spent on something else....they dont want on the Radar, so to speak!!

what many have to remember is: alot of people do their job to make a living, they dont live for their job....there are more things in life to do!! & making this field a priority to regulate is not a.....priority!!!


LXT................

 

[Bearcreek]

One of the "silly" regulations we have over here is that all would be Electricians must pass a colour recognition test before they study. I guess somebody thought getting the wires arse about could be problematic.

That would be a problem if they were doing automotive or industrial wiring, residential though, really not an issue. How far do these rules go for you down there? Is it illegal for you to install a new light switch if you're not certified?

 

[outofmytree]

That would be a problem if they were doing automotive or industrial wiring, residential though, really not an issue. How far do these rules go for you down there? Is it illegal for you to install a new light switch if you're not certified?

If it is wired to mains, 240v, you must be certified. If there is a fire proven to be caused by wiring installed without a license you lose your house and can still be slammed with a fine on top of that.

 

[jrr344]

You havn't seen regulation, where I work we are regulated by; EPA, OSHA, FERC, DOT, ect...... They never stop once they start it is all about cash to them, they get all types of outrageous fines I can be sued personally for what I do not just the corp.

 

[outofmytree]

You havn't seen regulation, where I work we are regulated by; EPA, OSHA, FERC, DOT, ect...... They never stop once they start it is all about cash to them, they get all types of outrageous fines I can be sued personally for what I do not just the corp.

We have the same here with Worksafe(OHS), EPA, DoC, DEC and a half dozen others. Of course, in order to be fined I must first be in breach. As my crew operate to standards that is never an issue.

 

[jrr344]

We have the same here with Worksafe(OHS), EPA, DoC, DEC and a half dozen others. Of course, in order to be fined I must first be in breach. As my crew operate to standards that is never an issue.

But sometimes the regs intfere with making a prophet, and I am not putting down safety but, they take things to far, I think any person should be responsible for their own safety and if they aren't that is their loss. They only real reason to have safety standards is to protect us from others. They have went way beyond that though, regulations now our like socialist governments in themselves, they tell us how to work, where to work and what work to do, they even tell us what kind of prophets are allowable to make.

 

[Bermie]

Jumping back in here...I can see how in enormous countries like the States and Oz and even the UK...the level of beurocracy (sp?) , lobbyists, standards committees, safety committees etc. ad nauseum...has lead to top heavy regulation that is often too cumbersome for the small operator, where only the larger companies can afford to comply with everything.

We are in the enviable position here of being very small, 21sq miles, a working population in 'Landscaping' of about 800, and a unique regulatory environment...the situation is in my opinion manageable. The time between cause and effect is short. We have the advantage of having many people who have lived, worked and trained in other countries and have seen their efforts, good and bad, and so can bring that knowledge to the table as stuff to utilize and stuff to stay away from. And most of us know each other too, competitors, compatriots...!

The advantage of having industry practitioners responsible for setting standards on OURSELVES is huge. We know what goes on day to day, what will work and what will not to a large extent. We will also be able to change stuff if it becomes evident that its not working...ONLY the Occupation Advisory Committee can set standards, recommendations go from us to the Govt for them to make part of the legal framework, not the other way around.
The higest motivating factor in Gov't recommending which industries become 'regulated' is safety...safety of the practitioner, their clients and to an extent the environment. I can see the debate about chaps and chainsaw trousers being an interesting one...but debated it will be, pros and cons, by those who have to wear them! Our deliberations will cover the whole gamut of the industry, hotels, golf courses, nurseries, landscapers, arborists...!

Interestingly my insurance agent told me the largest sector of claims they get for workman's comp in the 'Landscape' industry is for chainsaw injuries...hmmm what does THAT tell me? And I don't get any break in my insurance for being certificated and qualified...doesn't strike me as fair...
A guy can come in on a plane one day ostensibly as a 'landscape gardener', not have to prove he knows one iota about the industry go to work the next, be given a machete or a chainsaw and told to go at it...how is that any good for the client, the industry or the landscape? Immigration has no requirement to ask for proof of any qualifications...just that no Bermudian wanted the job on offer!

The debate continues...

 

[EdenT]

That would be a problem if they were doing automotive or industrial wiring, residential though, really not an issue. How far do these rules go for you down there? Is it illegal for you to install a new light switch if you're not certified?

Actually it can be more of an issue because both wires are white. Years ago a friend of mine was electrocuted changing a light bulb, fortunately not fatally. The HO who had decided to do their own wiring put the switch across the neutral only. Result live (deadly) potential even when switch turned off.

 

[Bearcreek]

Actually it can be more of an issue because both wires are white. Years ago a friend of mine was electrocuted changing a light bulb, fortunately not fatally. The HO who had decided to do their own wiring put the switch across the neutral only. Result live (deadly) potential even when switch turned off.

Are you saying that the hot and neutral lead to your friend's light were both white wires? If so that has nothing to do with the homeowner being colorblind. That's just stupidity. My point was that colorblindness does not affect a persons ability to do residential electrical wiring.

 

[EdenT]

Yes the stupidity part of your statement is quite correct. A person with no formal training or qualifications who was pretty sure he knew what he was doing actually didn't with near fatal consequences.

Gee that sounds a lot like some tree workers don't you think. Usually recognizable by the fact that they don't know how to do anything properly or safely because they have never had formal training. Trouble is that you don't see the signs until it's too late and they have injured themselves or a co-worker. I won't let a person start up a chainsaw in my vicinity unless I KNOW they have the appropriate training. Same as I won't let anyone work on my electrical systems until they prove to me they're a licensed electrician.

 

[outofmytree]

But sometimes the regs intfere with making a prophet, and I am not putting down safety but, they take things to far, I think any person should be responsible for their own safety and if they aren't that is their loss. They only real reason to have safety standards is to protect us from others. They have went way beyond that though, regulations now our like socialist governments in themselves, they tell us how to work, where to work and what work to do, they even tell us what kind of prophets are allowable to make.

Perhaps I wasn't being clear enough. I comply to every current regulation I am familiar with and as I survived a complete OHS overhaul in the last 12 months I would say that we are up to date. The cost was almost nil. I had to lay my hands on a couple of manuals, some MSDS and had to write a company policy.

The idea that you are responsible only for your own safety belongs in the 19th century. As an employer I am responsible for my safety, my employees safety and the safety of anyone on my worksite. It is not difficult to do and gives me great satisfaction in KNOWING that we do good work and still keep everyone safe. Oh, and I am also profitable.

It is a fallacy that you cannot be a safe operator and be profitable. All that is required is some forethought. In fact once you make safe work a habit it is hard to go back to being reckless. Learn to sell the idea that you do it the right way not the fast way and you can win a lot of jobs. Especially from people who work in other dangerous industries. I am close to 100% on converting leads to work when I speak to guys who are as sunburned as me and have work hardened hands. We speak the same language.

 

[lxt]

Gee that sounds a lot like some tree workers don't you think. Usually recognizable by the fact that they don't know how to do anything properly or safely because they have never had formal training. Trouble is that you don't see the signs until it's too late and they have injured themselves or a co-worker. I won't let a person start up a chainsaw in my vicinity unless I KNOW they have the appropriate training. Same as I won't let anyone work on my electrical systems until they prove to me they're a licensed electrician.

agree to a point.....but telling someone they need chainsaw classes is not gonna go over well, how about the repair side of the coin, I know a person who "dropstarts" every saw....never had an accident..YET! I always bust em for this! how are you gonna know if someone is appropriately trained on anything? really? I know guys who have passed these classes & I wouldnt let them operate a toilet!!

The point is where does it start & stop, chainsaw class, lawn mower class, hedge trimmer class, ladder classes, nail gun class, etc.... everyone must be responsible for their own safety!!!! respect for the tool you are using will go further than any safety class/video training!

Outofmytree....you are responsible to promote safety & make sure the rules are adhered to, you are not responsible for anyones safety but your own, sorry.....you might want to look at it that way, but the bottom line is; Everyone must be responsible for their own safety, you cant baby sit all day!

the fallacy of safety you speak of is kinda funny! I have worked for Utility/residential contractors: big orange, green & yellow, red white & blue, etc...they`ll follow the rules to a "T" untill production is down....then its out the window with certain safety rules.....minimum approach distances, setting out rescue gear, signs displayed, flag personnel, experienced operators, etc... are some of the common ones!!

Safety is enforced when it is profitably convenient & this is the standard with many companies, How many of us have heard.... "If you dont want to do it thats fine, I`ll find someone else who will".....the underlying fact is that refusal to do something will put you in a less than favorable position!!!!

So having a company policy, rules, codes, etc.... is as good as the paper it is written on!!! whats even more funny...well not really, is when someone does get hurt... then its how did this happen? how could it been prevented? & so on! All the while the company doesnt want to take blame....why? cuz ultimately its your responsibility!!! IMHO companies need to stop Bid work practices & just have T&M....Bid work sites have the largest accident rates due to unrealistic production requirements!!!




LXT..................