Anybody have some closeup pics of a band roller?

[Andrew96]

Guys...very interesting. I've been following along but my bandsaw (upright laguna shop unit) doesn't show signs of crowning bands like you guys have on your man sized BSs.
My point......Fellow Canadians...As I understand it, Harbour freight is owned by one brother. As we know...they sell in the states. Busy Bee tools is owned by the other brother...and sells in Canada. Both guys make it hard to buy from one company and import...forcing you to buy from the appropriate store near you. Most of the items are identical. Sometimes not though. When you see the yanks talking harbour freight....go look at busy bee. It's usually there.

 

[FJH]

Guys...very interesting. I've been following along but my bandsaw (upright laguna shop unit) doesn't show signs of crowning bands like you guys have on your man sized BSs.
My point......Fellow Canadians...As I understand it, Harbour freight is owned by one brother. As we know...they sell in the states. Busy Bee tools is owned by the other brother...and sells in Canada. Both guys make it hard to buy from one company and import...forcing you to buy from the appropriate store near you. Most of the items are identical. Sometimes not though. When you see the yanks talking harbour freight....go look at busy bee. It's usually there.

busy bee dosent have one!
kms was the only one I found so far!
Princess Auto didn't show one either
Ebay eastwood and one private seller
still looking
Al this is a tidy unit!
http://cgi.ebay.com/Sheet-Metal-ROT...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item48395a5e5c

 

[Ted J]

Finally came up with this on this side of the border!
http://www.kmstools.com/magnum-bead-roller-2935
235 bucks gets it on my door step!
Looked absolutly everywhere. EBAY yada yada all would have been in the 300 range by the time the dust settled!So I may order this puppy and if it dont work out at least I got it for playing with body work on the old ford!

I'm assuming that's in Canadian Funds, so that's not a bad deal for what.... 40-50 bucks US$ ???? :check: :biggrinbounce2:

 

[Ted J]

busy bee dosent have one!
kms was the only one I found so far!
Princess Auto didn't show one either
Ebay eastwood and one private seller
still looking
Al this is a tidy unit!
http://cgi.ebay.com/Sheet-Metal-ROT...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item48395a5e5c

Alan, this guy is in Kalifornia... local pickup may save you money!!!!

 

[FJH]

Alan, this guy is in Kalifornia... local pickup may save you money!!!!

Ted
I thought it was a good deal too! If i was state side I would go after the ebay one that I posted for Al !Thats a tidy unit!

 

[Old Hilly]

Andrew might just have a point about his bandsaw not cupping blades. I have never had that problem with my small bandsaw either and I suspect that it is because the blade is fully supported on a slightly crowned wheel. Looking at some of the comercial saws it seems that the blade is only supported in the centre and the back of the blade and the teeth are hanging out in thin air. To my way of thinking.......No comments from the gallery please..opcorn:.... this would tend to stretch, ever so slightly, the inner section of the blade while leaving the outer edges their original length. A machine that reverses this tendency by either compressing the centre section of the blade or stretching the outer edges of that blade would reduce the cupping effect.
I somehow think that it would be better to remove the cause of the problem than to spend time and money fixing the damage it caused.
I recently had the pleasure of playing with a section of well-worn band blade from a comercial mill. It was 8" wide from the back edge to the gullet of the teeth and the motor driving this thing was well over 200HP. There was no sign of cupping on that section of blade, it was as flat as one of my Mother's Scones.
Got me flame-proof suit ready:jester:

 

[TraditionalTool]

Al this is a tidy unit!
http://cgi.ebay.com/Sheet-Metal-ROT...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item48395a5e5c

Forgot to comment on this before, it reminds me of some of the Roper Whitney units, which are also compact and clean, but pricey. I like compact and clean.

I somehow think that it would be better to remove the cause of the problem than to spend time and money fixing the damage it caused.

I agree with what you say, just not sure what you hypothesize completely making sense. The problem could be in use, or IOW, the force applied to the blade as one mills. Grain and/or knots could be the cause of it.

Vertical bandsaws don't seem to exhibit this, at least it hasn't been a problem that has driven the users to use band rollers. Most all of the vertical bandsaws use crowned wheels, AFAIK, and it doesn't seem to effect the blade. And the cost of vertical bandsaw blades is substantially higher, so if this was really a problem the users would have found out a fix for it already it would seem. Just sayin'...

 

[Old Hilly]

Alan, when I first saw some of the comercial bandsaw wheels that used a "B" section V-belt as the drive wheel I was somewhat confused. All the bandsaws I had seen and used used a crowned rubber wheel that fully supported the blade. I wondered just how critical it was to keep these narrow drive wheels lined up so that the blade tracked properly. Then I looked at the saws that used car tyres and wheels and thought that they seemed more like a conventional bandsaw wheel that offered support for the whole blade.
It would be interesting to find out if these narrow band-wheels are the ones that cause the blades to "cup" and so need rolling, or if it is a problem with all types of band-wheels, be they Pneumatic wheels, crowned hard rubber wheels or ridgid V-belt lined pulleys.
My previous comments were more of a question rather than a statement of fact but it would be interesting to collect some statistics from users and then see how things go after that.
Dennis.

 

[FJH]

Peanut galley

Andys comment Of crowned wheels!
If I didn't have flat wheels I wouldn't have anything to comment on here!
My wheels are flat and are tracked by a mild toe in on the idle wheel!
(always lightly agianst the guide rollers)
I still get the odd cupped blade.
My thought on the cupping is more along the lines of running with the throat too wide while sawing and pushing too hard too long with a dull blade, simply tring to pull too much from one blade sharpe!
Just a peanut gallery opinion!

Fred

 

[TraditionalTool]

Alan, when I first saw some of the comercial bandsaw wheels that used a "B" section V-belt as the drive wheel I was somewhat confused. All the bandsaws I had seen and used used a crowned rubber wheel that fully supported the blade. I wondered just how critical it was to keep these narrow drive wheels lined up so that the blade tracked properly. Then I looked at the saws that used car tyres and wheels and thought that they seemed more like a conventional bandsaw wheel that offered support for the whole blade.

Yeah, some of the guys that build the tire mills tout them as being smoother running than steel wheels, but I'm not sure...seems to be several factors in play and the air tires might also avoid the real problem, as you suggested above.

It would be interesting to find out if these narrow band-wheels are the ones that cause the blades to "cup" and so need rolling, or if it is a problem with all types of band-wheels, be they Pneumatic wheels, crowned hard rubber wheels or ridgid V-belt lined pulleys.
My previous comments were more of a question rather than a statement of fact but it would be interesting to collect some statistics from users and then see how things go after that.
Dennis.

One thing I got to thinking after reading your posts was that there is a glaring difference between vertical and horizontal band saws in that the vertical requires that you push the material over the table, where the horizontal moves the head over the material. I could see how it would place more stress in specific situations, since your really relying on the head to stay stable, hence why most folks like the 4 post carriage better than a 2 post and/or cantilever head , for instance.

Andys comment Of crowned wheels!
If I didn't have flat wheels I wouldn't have anything to comment on here!
My wheels are flat and are tracked by a mild toe in on the idle wheel!
(always lightly agianst the guide rollers)
I still get the odd cupped blade.
My thought on the cupping is more along the lines of running with the throat too wide while sawing and pushing too hard too long with a dull blade, simply tring to pull too much from one blade sharpe!
Just a peanut gallery opinion!

Fred

Do the blades cup the same as the crown on the wheels? Blade support could surely be a reason, but in some cases it seems hard to adjust the throat as logs are not square by default.

Dennis makes a good point though, at least in understanding what the real cause of the problem is, I'm not sure any of us know that yet, not that having a band roller to fix that issue wouldn't be good...

 

[redprospector]

Andys comment Of crowned wheels!
If I didn't have flat wheels I wouldn't have anything to comment on here!
My wheels are flat and are tracked by a mild toe in on the idle wheel!
(always lightly agianst the guide rollers)
I still get the odd cupped blade.
My thought on the cupping is more along the lines of running with the throat too wide while sawing and pushing too hard too long with a dull blade, simply tring to pull too much from one blade sharpe!
Just a peanut gallery opinion!

Fred

In my opinion, if the blade is alway's rubbing against the flange on the guide rollers that is going to be really hard on the blade back. Unless you are running a bearing back guide, but even then it's hard on the blade.
If your wheels aren't as wide as the body of the band, you would still get the same effect. Having a crown in the wheel may aggrivate the cupping, but allows you to track the blade without having to always run on the flange of the guides. Everything you do has a trade off.
Pushing too hard, too long with a dull blade will result in cracks in the gullets, and broken blades. If you continually run with the guides wide open, while cutting smaller stuff, it will result in cracks in the back of the blade.
Again in my opinion, cupping is a direct result of the blade continually going around the wheel's.

A lot of people running 1 1/4" blades don't have as much problem with the blade cupping as those of us running 1 1/2" or wider blades. As I stated earlier everything you do has a trade off. If you have the HP. you can push a 1 1/2" blade quite a bit harder than a 1 1/4" blade, so to me it's worth a little more maintenance. It may not be to you.

Andy

 

[redprospector]

Andrew might just have a point about his bandsaw not cupping blades. I have never had that problem with my small bandsaw either and I suspect that it is because the blade is fully supported on a slightly crowned wheel. Looking at some of the comercial saws it seems that the blade is only supported in the centre and the back of the blade and the teeth are hanging out in thin air. To my way of thinking.......No comments from the gallery please..opcorn:.... this would tend to stretch, ever so slightly, the inner section of the blade while leaving the outer edges their original length. A machine that reverses this tendency by either compressing the centre section of the blade or stretching the outer edges of that blade would reduce the cupping effect.
I somehow think that it would be better to remove the cause of the problem than to spend time and money fixing the damage it caused.
I recently had the pleasure of playing with a section of well-worn band blade from a comercial mill. It was 8" wide from the back edge to the gullet of the teeth and the motor driving this thing was well over 200HP. There was no sign of cupping on that section of blade, it was as flat as one of my Mother's Scones.
Got me flame-proof suit ready:jester:

Dennis,
I think you've got the principle of the cause down, but sometimes removing the cause of one problem causes other problems. I have spent a lot of time using both upright stationary band saws, and band saw mills. Most upright band saw's are running fairly narrow blades that have much less set in the teeth. They are designed to cut (usually dry) dimensional lumber. The blades for these band mill's are designed to cut green wood 24" to 30" wide, so the set can be from .020" to .028". If the wheel is as wide as the blade it will very quickly take the set out of the inside of the blade as it goes around the wheel under tension. To me the logical remedy is to narrow the wheels and deal with the consequences by doing like I used to do, and throwing blades away when they quit cutting well, or to build or buy a band roller to keep them in shape.
There is a trade off for everything you do.

Andy

 

[FJH]

Flat wheels

Well up to this point the roller guides have done a good job !I run hydralic oil as lube constantly the continus ride does not seem to effect this!I have blades that have lasted a very log time others don't!Having said that, I used to runn water I had alot more blade failures since changing to oil Cooling may have alot more to do with things here than we know!Cupping wize!

 

[redprospector]

Do the blades cup the same as the crown on the wheels? Blade support could surely be a reason, but in some cases it seems hard to adjust the throat as logs are not square by default.

Actually, the blade will cup the opposite from the crown on the wheels.

Andy

 

[redprospector]

Well up to this point the roller guides have done a good job !I run hydralic oil as lube constantly the continus ride does not seem to effect this!I have blades that have lasted a very log time others don't!Having said that, I used to runn water I had alot more blade failures since changing to oil Cooling may have alot more to do with things here than we know!Cupping wize!

Good deal. As I said, that was my opinion. Another opinion I have is that if it's working good, there's no need to fix it. There's more than one way to skin a cat with these machines.

Andy

 

[FJH]

Good deal. As I said, that was my opinion. Another opinion I have is that if it's working good, there's no need to fix it. There's more than one way to skin a cat with these machines.

Andy

you bet!

 

[bobsreturn]

it would seem that the english wheel type rollers put some tension in the blade . but how do you know how how much tension to put in the blade ? any information available? cheers Bob up top down under.

 

[Andrew96]

I'm not going to quote bits and pieces...since you know who you are but have you thought of runout?...causing varied stretching across the band. This seems to be a vertical BS vs BMill issue. Most vertical band mills run some kind of rubber rim/tire whatever...fact is, flexible surface...usually fully support band...and not as rigid a machine (whole unit not as rigid). 3 Pluses towards keeping a band flat.
BTW..the crowned rims are there to make a band have the ability to track straight...the byproduct is they allow clearance for some set. Not much though.
From what I know BMills (not much) some of you are running more rigid rims..and due to the increased set of the larger bands....cannot run with a fully supported band around the rim. The head units are much more rigid and are higher powered. Much harder on Bands I'd think...Band Mills run a little thicker...but much wider...same spring steel band. Seems pretty easy for me to see what 'cups' a band. I'd say you guys run nice high tension...followed with an unsupported band....on a machine that requires the band to stretch for runnout...or the forces of cutting since the hard wheels are not able to absorb it all. That's a lot of stretch to deal with...without anyway to absorb it! The Vertical BS can softly direct these forces into the rubber wheels...the BMs that are rigid...the band takes the beating..down the center (where it is supported). Of course this is going to beat the center 'out' making your band longer in the center. Now you need to roll it. I'd say..cupped bands have the potential to be created by the design....but only created when you work them hard with lots of stretching forces created by High tension, Drivewheel runout + cutting forces.
$0.02 from a VBS owner who's never seen a cupped band. Of course I won't cup a band....I cannot run with that high a tension...I cannot work that band to create any heat...any forces/vibration/runnout that I do put into the band are quickly absorbed into the rubber rims of my baby 5hp machine.

 

[redprospector]

it would seem that the english wheel type rollers put some tension in the blade . but how do you know how how much tension to put in the blade ? any information available? cheers Bob up top down under.

Trial, and error. When I got my band roller I started using light pressure, checking, use a little more pressure, check, etc.etc.
After a few blades you kinda get a feel for about how much to use. I try to err on the light side because it's easier to add a little and roll it again than to turn the blade inside out and start over.

Andy

 

[redprospector]

I'm not going to quote bits and pieces...since you know who you are but have you thought of runout?...causing varied stretching across the band. This seems to be a vertical BS vs BMill issue. Most vertical band mills run some kind of rubber rim/tire whatever...fact is, flexible surface...usually fully support band...and not as rigid a machine (whole unit not as rigid). 3 Pluses towards keeping a band flat.
BTW..the crowned rims are there to make a band have the ability to track straight...the byproduct is they allow clearance for some set. Not much though.
From what I know BMills (not much) some of you are running more rigid rims..and due to the increased set of the larger bands....cannot run with a fully supported band around the rim. The head units are much more rigid and are higher powered. Much harder on Bands I'd think...Band Mills run a little thicker...but much wider...same spring steel band. Seems pretty easy for me to see what 'cups' a band. I'd say you guys run nice high tension...followed with an unsupported band....on a machine that requires the band to stretch for runnout...or the forces of cutting since the hard wheels are not able to absorb it all. That's a lot of stretch to deal with...without anyway to absorb it! The Vertical BS can softly direct these forces into the rubber wheels...the BMs that are rigid...the band takes the beating..down the center (where it is supported). Of course this is going to beat the center 'out' making your band longer in the center. Now you need to roll it. I'd say..cupped bands have the potential to be created by the design....but only created when you work them hard with lots of stretching forces created by High tension, Drivewheel runout + cutting forces.
$0.02 from a VBS owner who's never seen a cupped band. Of course I won't cup a band....I cannot run with that high a tension...I cannot work that band to create any heat...any forces/vibration/runnout that I do put into the band are quickly absorbed into the rubber rims of my baby 5hp machine.

I think you and I are in agreement on a lot of the things that causes the band to cup. Another thing to consider is that generally a blade on a mill will cut more linial ft in a day than a blade on a band saw in anything less than an industrial shop will cut in a month. These blades take a beating. Not to mention that some mill's will try to turn the blade's at over 6000 lin ft per min., that opens another can of worms.
In my experience, if the blade on a band mill is generating much heat at all, something is not set up right, or the blade is dull or underset. I can make a cut 16' long in a 12" wide cant, and the blade won't be even warm when it exit's the can't. Some guy's run water on their blade's constantly as a "lube" or coolant. I basicly run mine dry, and use an ocasional squirt of diesel/oil mix to keep the pitch cleaned off the blade.
I'm running about 56 hp on my band mill, which could be part of the cupping. But I wouldn't consider a 5hp vertical band saw a baby.

Andy