Federal Airtight 264CCL Questions

[Wood Doctor]

Brandon, you have to wonder what caused the lower plate and grates of Caroline's 264 to burn out like that. I've examined my 288 (circa 1987) AirTight's firebox bottom several times and have noticed practically no burn wear. I average 7 cords of wood a year and the only firebox burn out I had was the back plate and the collar assembly that once surrounded the cat combustor. I replaced all that as shown in previous pic on this thread.

Also, the glass plates in the doors are held in place with rather thin steel retainers that eventually burned out. Once again, I fabricated new ones in my shop using 1/2" angle iron and they are once again secure. Even those originals lasted 22 years.

The way these Federal stoves are designed, the steel internal parts take the brunt of the heat and wear. The cast iron that surrounds the steel parts will likely last forever.

 

[Cro]

HAPPY THANKSGIVING LADS !
More stove-talk after the holidays, we got the grate cut down and it fits like a charm now, burning coal this minute {supposed to get very cold here in the next few days} and it's going great. We're test running the coal option.

I took pics but will get them up in a few days.

Have a fabulous holiday !

 

[geoxman]

Croi,
Are you using the steel plate in place of the cat for your coal and are you getting secondary combustion with it? I have a stove that the cat is shot and I just might give the steel plate a shot since it also worked for wood doctor. My stove is a VC defiant encore circa 1986. It has been a great stove for the 24 years I have owned it but I am tired of replacing the cat every 3-4 years. I burn seasoned wood and I go 24/7 but I have never had one last more than 4 years. ngzcaz that is amazing on your cat!

 

[Justintoxicated]

Great Thread!

Well I guess I'm a little late to join the discussion, but this last year I purchased my first home and although I'm in California, it's getting a bit cold so I finally got around to checking out out Federal Airtight Stove. After lots of research and contorting my body to get to the back of the stove I found the model number FA264CCL.

I quick inspection and theres lots of damages.

1) No center grate in the bottom
2) Combustor is starting to crumble
3) Back Grate has a huge hole burned through the center of it
4) Air Pipes are melted away / decintegrated, I guess they would still function though?
5) Front doors are not glass but metal? The frame that holds them in place is deteriorating or maybe the metal inserts are jsut botled to the door and are deteriorating (I can't remember). One of the bolts appears to be broken off in the door that holds them in palce.
6) The square part of the front right door latch is busted off the front door so I cannot open the front doors (Maybe if I can take the nut off the back latch behind the front door?
7) Square Baffel under the combustor is split in 2 and no longer in place.
8) Temperature Gauge is missing (metal coil is still in place though)

Crazy enough, the stove still works and warms up the entire house nicely. I think the combustor is still working somewhat too, but I'm not sure I should be using the stove in it's current condition, especially with the damaged back grate?

The parts from black swan are going to add up to about $600. I jsut ordered the Condor Combustor (SteelCat version and temp guage for $200).

The last people using it just put a large steel plate in the center, but I was thinking of drilling some holes in it or buying the center grate from black swan? The Back Grate is the expensive part. $200.... Any alternatives? Is it even worth repairing? It looks like it is built like a tank and would help with our energy bills. We are on Propane so running the furnace is expensive.

We don't have the blower, but I found a box fan blowing on low facing towards the stove seems to work well.

Thanks for any advice in advance! Oh and thanks for posting the general manual! Thats a life saver

 

[ngzcaz]

Its been a long time since I bought this stove but if I recall the steel plate is for burning coal. The cat is for burning wood. I am speaking of the piece that the cat and steel circular plate interchange with each other. Also, there are heavy duty cast or steel side plates that are strongly recommeded when burning coal. Naturally, a CO2 detector is a must. I can dig out the original literature if you need info.

Good luck.

opcorn:

 

[Wood Doctor]

Buy a steel plate.

"The Back Grate is the expensive part. $200.... Any alternatives?"
----------------
Yes. Remove the old one and buy a 1/4" thick steel plate from a welding company for about $30. For the Fed Airtight 288 this plate is about 12" x 24". For the 264, this will be slightly smaller, about 11" x 21". Measure it. You will need to drill 4 holes and bolt it onto place. I made one for the 288, and it works.

The question is, do you know how to measure, drill 4 holes in 1/4" thick steel, and use a wrench to bolt the plate into position?

 

[Justintoxicated]

"The Back Grate is the expensive part. $200.... Any alternatives?"
----------------
Yes. Remove the old one and buy a 1/4" thick steel plate from a welding company for about $30. For the Fed Airtight 288 this plate is about 12" x 24". For the 264, this will be slightly smaller, about 11" x 21". Measure it. You will need to drill 4 holes and bolt it onto place. I made one for the 288, and it works.

The question is, do you know how to measure, drill 4 holes in 1/4" thick steel, and use a wrench to bolt the plate into position?

lol ! ok, thats exactly what I was thinking only I think it's only 2 holes for the 264 backplate. I just figured there must be something special about the $200 piece from blackswan, maybe it was a special type of steel or shape or something, after all, it's $200 for a piece of metal, I just don't get it. The combustor was expensive enough! I think it will be worth fixing up now. Too bad I didn't do this before the winter. Shouldn't take too long though. Is it ok to have some wood fires in the meantime? I'm thinking it will be a couple weeks before I can get to a welding supply or scrap metal yard.

 

[Wood Doctor]

lol ! ok, thats exactly what I was thinking only I think it's only 2 holes for the 264 backplate. I just figured there must be something special about the $200 piece from blackswan, maybe it was a special type of steel or shape or something, after all, it's $200 for a piece of metal, I just don't get it. The combustor was expensive enough! I think it will be worth fixing up now. Too bad I didn't do this before the winter. Shouldn't take too long though. Is it ok to have some wood fires in the meantime? I'm thinking it will be a couple weeks before I can get to a welding supply or scrap metal yard.

Yes, you can probably get by with two holes, hanging the plate from the top down. Drill the holes about 1/32" larger than the bolt diameter to account for your measurement error.

I would not use scrap metal. Go first class and buy the plate from a decent welding shop for $30 or so. You save $170, but don't tell the welder. He already knows that.

 

[Justintoxicated]

Yes, you can probably get by with two holes, hanging the plate from the top down. Drill the holes about 1/32" larger than the bolt diameter to account for your measurement error.

I would not use scrap metal. Go first class and buy the plate from a decent welding shop for $30 or so. You save $170, but don't tell the welder. He already knows that.

Cool, thanks man. I think I'll just order some of the other parts and replace them as I get around to it. (other than replacing the baffle right away). I'm not seeing much advantage to opening the front doors anyways, other than maybe initially getting the fire started which can pretty much be done from the ash tray door or side loading door anyways. Not sure what I will do for the front door inserts. I think it might look funny with one glass and the other metal (if I just repair the broken one). Maybe some washers, and replacing the broken screw would be enough to keep it tight against the front door so that I don't get smoke or leaks. It kinda sucks knowing that I have 3 or 3 screws without heads that are broken off into the stove. Hopefully some channel locks can get them out, otherwise I guess it's a drill press and/or some heilicoils or something.

Now I just need time, and a good supply of wood. (The wood I have was free but alot of it is pretty rotted.)

 

[Justintoxicated]

I got the back grate out it was a lot harder than I thought it would be! Here Some Pictures. Sorry for the quality, it was dark and I took them with my cellphone. I may replace them with better one later.


FA264CCL Back Grate by Glamisduner, on Flickr
There were squatters living int he house before we bought it, perhaps this is a result from one of their fires? I dunno but this looks even worse now that I pulled it out!


2010-11-30_22-33-20_49 by Glamisduner, on Flickr


FA264CCL Baffle by Glamisduner, on Flickr
Baffle is destroyed and needs to be replaced.


FA264CCL Combustor by Glamisduner, on Flickr
Looks Pretty bad but is it? I don't have any experience with these stoves.


FA264CCL Left Door by Glamisduner, on Flickr
2 of the bolt heads had snapped off already, I removed the third bolt (which also snapped off) because the window/metal piece needed a new gasket. The metal window piece is broken itself where one of the bolts hold it to the door. I'm guessing a washer might be able to fix this though.


2010-11-30_22-29-08_848 by Glamisduner, on Flickr
Right Side Door where handle attachment was busted off. It was permanently stuck closed. I tried to grab the latch mechanism from the inside, and it busted off on that side as well. So the threaded part is stuck in the door. The other side of it looks similar to the left door, but I didn't bother to remove the bolts because I know they will just snap off. Not sure how I could re-gasket this without removing the metal window piece.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So is my project doomed? I feel terrible for taking this apart because now that the latch is actually busted off the end of the door. There is no way to use this stove. At least it worked before I took it apart...

Give up now? Get a new Stove (I won't have any funds in the foreseeable future though). Luckily I still have the furnace, although its quite expensive to heat the whole house with it. At least it's not snowing here I guess.

 

[Wood Doctor]

Justin, bolts are easy to replace at a hardware store, so snapped heads mean nothing. All you have to do is match up the threads and remove whatever part of the snapped bolt remains. If worse came to worse, you can drill out the bolts an retap the threads.

As for latches, that takes some work in your shop. Generally, you can fabricate metal parts that will work--not easy, but it can be done. Most of your stove looks to be in good shape. See my picture in an earlier post for rebuilding the collar leading into the secondary combustion chamber. That can be rebuilt with a square angle iron frame and bolts. It doesn't have to be round. Mine works perfectly.

Don't try to get all the repairs done at once. Take your time. Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither was this stove. It's been beat up a little, but I wouldn't give up on it yet.

 

[bsearcey]

HOLY COW!!!!! Man that thing has seen some serious overfiring to have that kind of damage. I think you could fix it, but it won't be easy.

Doc has already covered how to replace the back fire shield. The cat is no good. I'm sure the squatters were not checking the moisture content of the wood because it looks like thermal damage (I know from personal experience). My main concern and probably what will be the hardest part is getting the rest of the bolt out of the holes and the piece of door latch that is still in the door. I doubt you'll be able to use the tool designed to get stripped screws out. You'll probably have to drill out the hole and re-tap. A drill press would come in handy, but you can probably accomplish it with a hand drill and good carbide tips.

Have you been able to get the broken baffle below the cat off. If the door bolts broke chances are the bolts holding it in place will too. Getting those out could be a PITA. I suggested you go ahead and take the top off the stove to give you more space to work with. I know on my stove there were 4 or 6 (can't recall) on the underside of the top lip. There was also one bolt on the inside of the access hole for the cat at the top of the stove (front center). Given the condition of the stove once you get the bolts off the top should come off no problem.

Also, with the overfiring that seems to have occured you may have leaks in the seams of the stove. If they are minor you should be OK, but if they are pretty bad then you may still experience overfiring even after all the work is done.

 

[Justintoxicated]

HOLY COW!!!!! Man that thing has seen some serious overfiring to have that kind of damage. I think you could fix it, but it won't be easy.

Doc has already covered how to replace the back fire shield. The cat is no good. I'm sure the squatters were not checking the moisture content of the wood because it looks like thermal damage (I know from personal experience). My main concern and probably what will be the hardest part is getting the rest of the bolt out of the holes and the piece of door latch that is still in the door. I doubt you'll be able to use the tool designed to get stripped screws out. You'll probably have to drill out the hole and re-tap. A drill press would come in handy, but you can probably accomplish it with a hand drill and good carbide tips.

Have you been able to get the broken baffle below the cat off. If the door bolts broke chances are the bolts holding it in place will too. Getting those out could be a PITA. I suggested you go ahead and take the top off the stove to give you more space to work with. I know on my stove there were 4 or 6 (can't recall) on the underside of the top lip. There was also one bolt on the inside of the access hole for the cat at the top of the stove (front center). Given the condition of the stove once you get the bolts off the top should come off no problem.

Also, with the overfiring that seems to have occured you may have leaks in the seams of the stove. If they are minor you should be OK, but if they are pretty bad then you may still experience overfiring even after all the work is done.

Who knows what the squatters were burning, the thing was filled with trash when I looked in it. It's also probably nearly as old as I am.

But yea, regasketing etc should not be too big of a deal, but drilling out the hold bolts is where I'm going to be stuck. Maybe it's time I buy my own drill press, I have been wanting one for years but had no place to put one. Now I have a place to put one and no money to buy one!

How can I check the seams? I didn't notice anything going on when I had a couple fires in it, in fact even the cat seemed to be working to some degree. Temp fixed the air leaks where the gaskets were with some silencer packing. I suppose the 3 bolts on each door that hole the metal window inserts could be drilled out then even tapped to a larger size if necessary, however I'm not sure how to do with the stuck portion where the latch goes. I can get a new latch from blackswan, but if I drill it out wrong then it isn't going to thread in correctly and will cause a leak. Not sure I trust myself with this portion, I'm only somewhat mechanically inclined and don't have a drill press yet. I wish I could just buy a new right side door, the thing looks like it was busted at one time too as I see it was soldered or welded back on or something.

I'll try to remove the baffle tonight, It might be tricky but I know at least one of the screws was lose already. The holder portion for the combustor seems to still be in reasonable shape. If I can fix this for $500 or $600 then it's probably worth it, but I'd hate to get $600 into it and then still end up buying a new wood stove.

 

[bsearcey]

I think you could fix it for way less $600. You should be able to do all the drilling with a hand drill. A drill press would just be a bonus. In fact if you are going to be getting a metal shop to do the back heat sheild for you ask them if they could do the doors for you. I bet they could drill them out and re-tap (window bolts and latch hole) for next to nothing. If you decide to do it, just take your time.

Get all this work done and start burning. You will know if you've got air leaks by uncontrollable fires. If that's the case you will basically have to take the whole stove apart and reapply stove cement in all the seam then put back together.

Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[ngzcaz]

I may have posted this earlier. To find a leak, just throw in a crumbled newspaper or two, light it and then smother the fire so it smokes. Obviously close the doors. If smoke comes out of your hot air chambers, there's a problem. Smoke coming from your lower and upper spin dials are OK.

 

[bsearcey]

Would you not close the bypass and cover the the cat as well?

 

[ngzcaz]

And your cat may be still working since it was white. If it was black and sooty, toss it.

 

[ngzcaz]

Yes, close the bypass. The cat can be in or out for a smoke test.

 

[Wood Doctor]

Doors could be sealed forever.

You might look at it this way. The front doors could be sealed forever on this stove and you could still use it as long as the side loading door still works to get wood in. Many stoves (perhaps most) only have a loading door and that is it. The grates drop the ashes into an ash pan below, and many stoves don't even offer that luxury.

 

[Justintoxicated]

You might look at it this way. The front doors could be sealed forever on this stove and you could still use it as long as the side loading door still works to get wood in. Many stoves (perhaps most) only have a loading door and that is it. The grates drop the ashes into an ash pan below, and many stoves don't even offer that luxury.

yep, actually, my plan was to leave the latch stuck and the front doors stuck closed. But the right side bolt for the rear grate was all screwed up so to get a better grip on it and see what was going on, I had to open the front doors to get to the bolt head easier. And thats when I had to try to turn the latch, which busted off leaving the threaded portion in the door. So now my doors are permanently open instead of permanently closed. I suppose I could have someone tack weld them shut or something, but I'd rather get a new latch in there inn case I need to do maintenance inside again in the future. Another reason to remove them was to get at the bolts holding the window pieces on and to reseal the doors with new gasket material so they would stop leaking in air.