Mastermind
Work Saw Specialist
Thanks for that pic Rogue60........Now I can say I've see detonation damage in a chainsaw.
This 066 Grenaded........What The Hell Happened???????
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I use regular pump gas with no additives even in modded saws. The gas is always fresher and it doesn't seem to hurt the performance. If some of the guys that's been modding saws longer than I've been alive say it's what they use with up to 230 lbs of compression that's good enough for me.
Mastermind
Work Saw Specialist
87 octane is all I ever use.
shootingarts
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I'm not too sure that just running E-85 can't destroy a bottom end. Interesting claim by Bel-Ray that their two cycle oil mixes fine with 10% ethanol but will not mix with E-85. If that is literally true, having oil in suspension with
Edit: Started this post last night and never got around to finishing it. Seems it was just hanging around and accidentally posted. Anyway, if what Bel-Ray states is literally true and their two-cycle oil won't mix with E-85 then oil in suspension instead of evenly mixed could lead to all kinds of grief including pure gassing an engine when using that mix. Of course it would seem possible to pure oil an engine too which might not do it any long term harm but will certainly lead to a lot of cussing!
Hu
Edit: Started this post last night and never got around to finishing it. Seems it was just hanging around and accidentally posted. Anyway, if what Bel-Ray states is literally true and their two-cycle oil won't mix with E-85 then oil in suspension instead of evenly mixed could lead to all kinds of grief including pure gassing an engine when using that mix. Of course it would seem possible to pure oil an engine too which might not do it any long term harm but will certainly lead to a lot of cussing!
Hu
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7sleeper
Addicted to ArboristSite
As I've said here to many times I don't care what name is one the bottle as long as it is
1. fullsynthetic for air cooled engines
2. fullfills the folowing norms API TC, JASO FC/FD, ISO L-EGD
Then it's ok for me. The above norms dictate
Specification after ISO-L-Norm (European norm)
Class => engine Performance
ISO-L-EGB (Global GB) => middle(= JASO FB)
ISO-L-EGC (Global GC) => middle and smokeless (= JASO FC)
ISO-L-EGD (Global GD) => high performance and smokeless (> JASO FD)
Specification after API-Norm (US norm)
Class => engine Performance
API-TA (TSC-1) => Mopeds
API-TB (TSC-2) => Motorscooters and Motorcycles
API-TC (TSC-3) => high performance engines
API-TD (TSC-4) => Outboardengines equivalent to NMMA TC-WII
Specification after JASO-Norm (Japanese norm)
Class => engine Performance
JASO (M345) FA => low
JASO (M345) FB => middle
JASO (M345) FC => middle and smokeless
JASO (M345) FD => high performance and smokeless
Translated by me from the german wikipedia page. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmieröl
Stihl HP Ultra does NOT fullfill the top norms!
Randy sorry to derail your thread but I thought it was driffting off anyhow.
7
1. fullsynthetic for air cooled engines
2. fullfills the folowing norms API TC, JASO FC/FD, ISO L-EGD
Then it's ok for me. The above norms dictate
Specification after ISO-L-Norm (European norm)
Class => engine Performance
ISO-L-EGB (Global GB) => middle(= JASO FB)
ISO-L-EGC (Global GC) => middle and smokeless (= JASO FC)
ISO-L-EGD (Global GD) => high performance and smokeless (> JASO FD)
Specification after API-Norm (US norm)
Class => engine Performance
API-TA (TSC-1) => Mopeds
API-TB (TSC-2) => Motorscooters and Motorcycles
API-TC (TSC-3) => high performance engines
API-TD (TSC-4) => Outboardengines equivalent to NMMA TC-WII
Specification after JASO-Norm (Japanese norm)
Class => engine Performance
JASO (M345) FA => low
JASO (M345) FB => middle
JASO (M345) FC => middle and smokeless
JASO (M345) FD => high performance and smokeless
Translated by me from the german wikipedia page. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmieröl
Stihl HP Ultra does NOT fullfill the top norms!
Randy sorry to derail your thread but I thought it was driffting off anyhow.
7
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shootingarts
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Just for grins, OK it's half the price too, I asked Bel-Ray a few questions about MC-1 and the difference between it and H1R. Most especially I asked them about the percentage of esters in the "full synthetic" MC-1 since Bel-Ray themselves point out that after highly refining it, mineral based oil is often called synthetic.
Granted only a couple business days involved but so far the silence has been deafening. On the plus side, I can buy Bel-Ray products only seven miles away. Generally, I have to drive 30-60 miles to buy anything but there is a large four wheeler business in the small town my mail comes from.
Still editing on this post, sorry! Seems to me that we are talking about two almost totally different things that are used for the same purposes, dino based two cycle oil and ester based. Seems likely that they have totally different burn properties. This is the kind of thing I want to learn about. Throw in the bean oil just for grins but use of it seems to be fading enough that it doesn't matter.
So, does mineral based oil raise or lower octane? Opinion seems to be it lowers it since it is reported to increase the danger of detonation. If so we are paying a high cost for oiling the bottom end running higher mixes of dino oil.
Does ester based oil raise or lower octane? Narry a clue. We can't judge a thing about ester based two cycle oil from the way dino based performs.
Randy, a question directed at you: Have you ran the dino based two cycle oil and 87 octane in saws with timing advanced and over 200 compression or just the ester based oil?
(now I'm editing the wrong post! "Sir, step away from the edit button . . . NOW!)
Hu
Granted only a couple business days involved but so far the silence has been deafening. On the plus side, I can buy Bel-Ray products only seven miles away. Generally, I have to drive 30-60 miles to buy anything but there is a large four wheeler business in the small town my mail comes from.
Still editing on this post, sorry! Seems to me that we are talking about two almost totally different things that are used for the same purposes, dino based two cycle oil and ester based. Seems likely that they have totally different burn properties. This is the kind of thing I want to learn about. Throw in the bean oil just for grins but use of it seems to be fading enough that it doesn't matter.
So, does mineral based oil raise or lower octane? Opinion seems to be it lowers it since it is reported to increase the danger of detonation. If so we are paying a high cost for oiling the bottom end running higher mixes of dino oil.
Does ester based oil raise or lower octane? Narry a clue. We can't judge a thing about ester based two cycle oil from the way dino based performs.
Randy, a question directed at you: Have you ran the dino based two cycle oil and 87 octane in saws with timing advanced and over 200 compression or just the ester based oil?
(now I'm editing the wrong post! "Sir, step away from the edit button . . . NOW!)
Hu
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komatsuvarna
Arboristsite MVP
komatsuvarna
Arboristsite MVP
BTW, That saw has been run on 32:1 H1R for a long time with shell 92 ethanol blend. I have no idea what caused it. When I went to put the piston stop in it to change the drive rim, I shined a light through the plug hole for the first time since I ported it, I was like WTF!?!?!? It looked worse through the plug hole, so I pulled the top for a closer look. Took some pictures and put it back together. The combustion chamber is spotless, just the exhaust side of the piston crown is pitted some.
Gonna change gas stations and see what happens.....
Gonna change gas stations and see what happens.....
Trx250r180
Saw polisher
when you did the saw ,did you advance the timing on the flywheel at all ?
komatsuvarna
Arboristsite MVP
Nope, I never do it on the Huskys. The 346 still has the stock blue rev limited coil too. I tune it to about 13,800-14,000 and cut wood.
Also, squish is .024 and the compression is 190psi, so I know that's not the problem either.
I made the switch to H1R after randy did my two saws and use that mix for everything else that runs mix the old man that built race saws back in the early 80's
All way mix at 32:1 he didn't trust the quality of the fuel he said if she blows it not because there wasn't enough oil
All way mix at 32:1 he didn't trust the quality of the fuel he said if she blows it not because there wasn't enough oil
Mastermind
Work Saw Specialist
I'd be checking the bearings in that saw Durand......that looks like impact damage.
Mastermind
Work Saw Specialist
I'd be checking the bearings in that saw Durand......that looks like impact damage.
komatsuvarna
Arboristsite MVP
Just on the exhaust side, down to the ring land? The combustion chamber didn't have any marks at all, none.
I think I got this saw hot a couple months ago. I was using a 20'' 3/8s bar cutting a lot bigger wood than I should have been. I may or may not have got some bad gas, but I remember running the saw in a huge Ash and smelling the oil and thinking I better back off this thing a minute.....I dunno if that done it on not. I was actually flush cutting a stump for the stump grinder when that happened....I cut from both sides with a 20'' bar and then took the trackhoe and broke the stump off what was still holding, they was about a 4'' circle in the middle holding it if that tells how big it was. It was also close to 100* that day too....
I'm wrong plenty of times and may be again, but I can't help but think I got it hot that day and caused that. Could possibly be something wrong with the bearings too but this is a pretty low hour saw. Strange for sure though.
BTW, The mail ladie brought me something back from your shop today, thats nice! Thanks!
I think I got this saw hot a couple months ago. I was using a 20'' 3/8s bar cutting a lot bigger wood than I should have been. I may or may not have got some bad gas, but I remember running the saw in a huge Ash and smelling the oil and thinking I better back off this thing a minute.....I dunno if that done it on not. I was actually flush cutting a stump for the stump grinder when that happened....I cut from both sides with a 20'' bar and then took the trackhoe and broke the stump off what was still holding, they was about a 4'' circle in the middle holding it if that tells how big it was. It was also close to 100* that day too....
I'm wrong plenty of times and may be again, but I can't help but think I got it hot that day and caused that. Could possibly be something wrong with the bearings too but this is a pretty low hour saw. Strange for sure though.
BTW, The mail ladie brought me something back from your shop today, thats nice! Thanks!
Mastermind
Work Saw Specialist
I like me some mail ladies.......
I blowed the middle pic up......it looks like something was eating at it. But then, what will detonation do to one?
It's another case of, the more I see, the less I really know.
I blowed the middle pic up......it looks like something was eating at it. But then, what will detonation do to one?
It's another case of, the more I see, the less I really know.
komatsuvarna
Arboristsite MVP
I like me some mail ladies.......
I blowed the middle pic up......it looks like something was eating at it. But then, what will detonation do to one?
It's another case of, the more I see, the less I really know.
Oh I got a dandy mail ladie
.I agree, and I dunno. I'm gonna change a few things I do and run it some more and watch it, maybe I'll learn something from the ordeal.
Back to the original thread, I ported that saw in February this year. It has been run on nothing but 32:1 H1R since then, not sure on the tanks of fuel but I wore out a chain drive rim since porting. The combustion chamber had very little carbon that wiped right out with a cloth, and the piston had a little carbon buildup on it that is visible in the pictures above. Hooray 32:1
!!!!!
LegDeLimber
Addicted to ArboristSite
I'm a ditto on MM's opinion of that Komatsuvarna's slug
looking like impact damage.
Seems like there are some scuffs or transfer spots on the skirt
that roughly correspond with the heavier deformations of the
crown edges.
-
I was looking for some info regarding detonation and combustion chamber, etc and found this:
http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue54/EngineBasics.html
Some pretty interesting reading in it.
the ign timing and exhaust temps was 'specialy interesting!
Gots me wanting to set up a test block for my leafblowers
just wish I didn't have neighbors so darn closeup now
can't run the noisy two cycles at night anymore
and that's my most mentally productive time.
(was born at 9:45 pm, dangit )
looking like impact damage.
Seems like there are some scuffs or transfer spots on the skirt
that roughly correspond with the heavier deformations of the
crown edges.
-
I was looking for some info regarding detonation and combustion chamber, etc and found this:
http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue54/EngineBasics.html
Some pretty interesting reading in it.
the ign timing and exhaust temps was 'specialy interesting!
Gots me wanting to set up a test block for my leafblowers
just wish I didn't have neighbors so darn closeup now
can't run the noisy two cycles at night anymore
and that's my most mentally productive time.
(was born at 9:45 pm, dangit )
Non of us are experts on the matter of detonation or piston erosion. However with experience and some knowledge we can make a guess. I've seen pistons look similar to both examples above.
Rogue's piston exhibits what I know to be classic detonation.
Komatsuvarns's saw I'm not sure about. To me it looks like the piston got too hot on the exhaust side, which means it was tuned too lean IMHO. Non of this has anything to do with the oil itself.
I've talked about this and have brought the subject up before. In a work saw, how much do you really gain pushing compression passed say 180 psi for an example. Yes you will make a bit more power, but at what cost? Most of the old school saw builders will tell you a true production saw with lots of compression will not last long. A firewood guy that knows how to tune a saw likely won't have any issues.
There's a big learning curve here and I myself, has a long way to go.
Rogue's piston exhibits what I know to be classic detonation.
Komatsuvarns's saw I'm not sure about. To me it looks like the piston got too hot on the exhaust side, which means it was tuned too lean IMHO. Non of this has anything to do with the oil itself.
I've talked about this and have brought the subject up before. In a work saw, how much do you really gain pushing compression passed say 180 psi for an example. Yes you will make a bit more power, but at what cost? Most of the old school saw builders will tell you a true production saw with lots of compression will not last long. A firewood guy that knows how to tune a saw likely won't have any issues.
There's a big learning curve here and I myself, has a long way to go.
komatsuvarna
Arboristsite MVP
That little spot on the skirt was on there the day I bought it. They tuned it at the dealer, I brought it home and gave it a muffler mod and it was there then. They's no transfer spots.
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