Frustrated, need to vent

[treeman82]

I have my own company going right now, but also work for about 4? other companies as a sub. Some of them frustrate the hell out of me and I just need to vent.

1) Went last week with one guy to a job where he said it was 1 dead pine. Get there and it's a dead blue spruce (he said he thought maybe it was a tamarack?). Then I wound up having to dead wood another blue spruce, only I didn't have a ladder or any throw line with me because I had been told it was 1 dead pine. After that I went and looked at another job with this guy, he had been to the property a few months ago to do some chipping for a landscaper who had decided to just go and rip out "$20K+ in plant material". We get there and there's this NASTY tulip right next to the driveway that you flat out can't miss on your way up to the house. Rotten and cracked he never said anything about it when he was first there. We get up by the house and we need to take down this black oak over the house. No big deal. On the way out though I noticed at LEAST 5 dead red and white oaks over another house on the property, broken branches, dead wood over the patio, etc. etc. Multi million dollar home and he doesn't say a word about any of this potential work. - BTW, no tree insurance.

2) Another guy I do some stuff for... come to find out no insurance, meanwhile he'll bid a big norway maple over a house with confidence and gets it.

3) Another guy I was working for about a month ago, nice open area to fell these couple of maple trees into... of course he hangs it up into another maple, or he'll drop it 90* to the way it has to go... meanwhile he's giving me instruction on how to make a proper back cut. - excavation contractor w/ landscaper's insurance

4) Another guy has a big estate he maintains, used to have a lot of dead trees around the property... "The lady will never go for it." Sure enough one day we are there doing some other work, and Ira Wickes Tree Service was there from across the river taking down those very trees.

5) I gave a price to a guy about 10 days ago for some branches over the house and doing some crown reduction on a norway spruce to prolong failure. Told him $1200 and got it. Then he gets other prices and somebody told him $800. He calls me today and says I can have the job for $800 if I want it. He wants me to make the spruce look like a christmas tree, yeah. right.

Meanwhile I just spoke with my insurance agent on Saturday (she treats me like gold) and I'm increasing my limits with her because I feel that it's the responsible thing to do. So that means it's gonna be probably $7,000 for my liablity when the guys I am competing against are paying $2,000 for theirs, or nothing at all.

I was talking with a friend this afternoon and expressed my frustration... he said the feeling is a common one today. So many guys are doing this now and when he and others go out they aren't bidding against 1 or 2 other guys. Some people are willing to work for nothing, but some don't want to and have been quiet because of the fact. For me it's not so much the numbers part... I mean yeah, I bid a job for $X and find out somebody else got the job for not even half that... it sucks. But to be out there doing this and strugging to get work when the unqualified / uninsured guys are getting plenty of nice jobs... that's what really irks me.

 

[begleytree]

Pertty common frustrations. It's not right I know, but whats a man to do? I think most of the frustration factor comes from the inability to do anything about it. hope it gets better for you/all of us.
-Ralph

 

[treeman82]

I think also that a part of the problem is that it's bitter cold outside which keeps me and others inside. That leaves a lot of idle time to let the mind wander. If I was outside busting my butt right now for myself I wouldn't be so frustrated I'm sure.

 

[treeseer]

I think most of the frustration factor comes from the inability to do anything about it.

Nothing can be done?

 

[treeman82]

Nothing can be done?

I think that I am gonna get out of here. Not this site, but I am going to find a better area with nowhere near as much saturation. Lately I've been working more North of here and I find it's easier to conduct business. Not so much saturation, the people just want the job done right. My reputation in these areas has been spreading and it's pretty darn good at that. I've been one of the more expensive guys, which I have no problems with. I've spoken with a few others who do work in these areas and the feeling is similar... it's just easier to conduct business. Nowhere near as much competition, people appreciate good quality work, they like it when you do what you say you are going to do, and just all that.

 

[SteveBullman]

look on the bright side, if any of these guys happen to come across this forum you probably wont need to worry about having to work for them again

:greenchainsaw:

 

[begleytree]

Nothing can be done?

Guy, I've always thought of it as trying to kill a hydra. You cut off one head and three more grow back. sure, you can drop the dime on owners but what does that truly solve? If one gets put under, three more pop up the take its place. Better the guy you know than the three new ones you don't, imo.
There will always be lower rung operators. In a capitalist system where jobs are awarded based on price these types thrive. Some markets allow for higher end pricing for better services or more knowledgeable service/operators, but not all. In my area there are a few folks who care more for their trees than their money, per se, and appreciate and pay for quality knowledgeable service. I do much of their work, but there is not enough of them that I can only work on those kinds of properties. I wish there were, but there aren't. The fact is I have to compete with the same type guys TM82 does much of the time. Perhaps my post should have read "the inability to effect meaningful long term change."
-Ralph

 

[adam]

What about a line like that:
" When Mr. Yahoo with no insurance gets hurt on your property, you, by law his employer will pay Mr. Yahoo's disability ". Sometimes works.

 

[treeman82]

A couple of weeks ago I looked at a blue spruce removal in the middle of a slate patio. Had to walk the chunks of wood down a bunch of steps to get to the truck. I priced it at $2,000. Called the guy up a week ago to say that this tree ordinance his town was proposing didn't get passed and he was free to do as he wished. Guy told me that he got 2 other prices, 1 for $1600, and 1 for less than $1000. I told him to get the guy for $1,600, but if he wanted me to do it I could probably come down to $1,800. Anybody who would do that tree for less than $1,000 would have to be nuts AND uninsured. All the wood had to be butt hitched in order to avoid taking out the patio. Darn yahoo's.

 

[lxt]

I know what you mean, but even the big co.`s are doing this, under biddin each other!! its a race to the bottom i tell ya!!! take care & be safe!!!
LXT..........................................

 

[Sunrise Guy]

Your frustration with low bidders is shared by countless workers in this profession and others. I was in a great business, tattooing and body piercing, for seventeen years. I owned the first licensed shop in Texas. I worked a grueling three day, eighteen hour work week and made around 50G's per year. I worked on movie stars and billionaires.

As time went on, the word got out about the money to be made in the body mod biz, and shops started popping up on every other street corner. I saw my income go down, down, down, as I saw my hours go up, up, up. When the biz became the domain of mainly 18-21 year old artists who were content to make 7-12G's per year working their butts off and living in cheap digs, I could no longer hang in there. I had been doing trees for pleasure and exercise, and then I turned it into my profession.

Now I'm seeing a similar process going on with the tree biz. More and more people are getting into it and the story is going as it did in tattooing. It may get to a point where I cannot live on the income and I will move on, leaving the trees to no-talent hacks.

The capitalist system works this way, for better or worse. We each have a certain standard of living we can handle based on what our cash flow is, which in turn is based on our income and thus our chosen profession's average income figure. As a given profession gets glutted, one must face the decision to either accept a lower living standard, or change professions to try to maintain a personal status quo, of sorts.

Life stays interesting as one moves around, professionally. I have had three major careers in my life, music, body mod and trees, and each one has been good to me. Along the way I have invested in real estate and the stock market, and so I don't panic when I decide to try another line of work.

That brings up a crucial point: Don't fail to invest money when you make it. If you live hand-to-mouth, you will never be able to invest, and you will always sweat career changes. Wise investments pay off over time and give you a cushion, should you decide to get into another line of work. If what you are making in the trees is not giving you enough to invest, if you are financing on credit cards and sweating income all the time, it is time to make a change.

Sometimes a little creative advertising will bring rewards. I hand out flyers when work slows down, and then I get calls and work picks up. I have decided to bid low for a while to see if I can successfully fight the hacks around here, but I am watching my income to make sure I am not falling below my monthly goals.

Good luck to you and all of us!

 

[toscottm]

Venting: Professional Solutions

Treeman82,

There are two suggestions, both won't provide immediate resolve to your challenge.

1. Regulation

It is amazing to think that arboriculture or tree work is unregulated. Basically anyone with a chain saw and a little mixed fuel can do this kind of work. Here in Canada, we only have one province that regulated the industry, Manitoba. There you must be licensed and meet other requirements (i.e. liability insurance, etc.). Should tree service be a more regulated industry? If you and others in your area think so, lobby accordingly.

2. Salesmanship

Educating prospective clients on issues such as their vicarious liability (look up this term and know it) for the contractors they hire. Knowing that they may be legally responsible for injuries to worker's or the public should an incident arise during the work being performed as well as a result of the work performed (or expertise rendered or not rendered) may encourage them to do business with legitimate companies.

I read and replied to your related post regarding liability issues. Surprised you didn't respond further. Am interested in discussing this further with you.

Scott

 

[Timberhauler]

I have my own company going right now, but also work for about 4? other companies as a sub. Some of them frustrate the hell out of me and I just need to vent.

5) I gave a price to a guy about 10 days ago for some branches over the house and doing some crown reduction on a norway spruce to prolong failure. Told him $1200 and got it. Then he gets other prices and somebody told him $800. He calls me today and says I can have the job for $800 if I want it. He wants me to make the spruce look like a christmas tree, yeah. right.



I was talking with a friend this afternoon and expressed my frustration... he said the feeling is a common one today. So many guys are doing this now and when he and others go out they aren't bidding against 1 or 2 other guys. Some people are willing to work for nothing, but some don't want to and have been quiet because of the fact. For me it's not so much the numbers part... I mean yeah, I bid a job for $X and find out somebody else got the job for not even half that... it sucks. But to be out there doing this and strugging to get work when the unqualified / uninsured guys are getting plenty of nice jobs... that's what really irks me.

Fifteen years I have been in this business altogether,ten in the logging business before that,and now I have ten under my belt as the owner of my own timber clearing and tree service..
Everyone who owns a rope,chainsaw,and a pickup truck seem to be in the tree business in my area.I have even gotten to the point of telling possible clients on the phone that if they are looking for the cheapest price that I'm not the one,but if they are looking for quality work by someone who is qualified and insured than I am who they are looking for.Several other bigger outfits around here,and myself got together a while back,and we came up with a standard of pricing jobs.It has helped a little,we all usually come out within a couple hundred bucks in price.I have gotten into clearing timber to help fill some voids because it seems like I get about two out of five jobs that I'm bidding on..Whether or not some of these "redneck outfits"are insured,I don't even see how they can pay their help and maintain their equipment at some of the prices they are doing work for.I can share your frustration,especially this time of year.
Just last week,I bid a water oak removal at $800.I bid a little on the low side just because things are slow right now.The guy said he would let me know in a week or so.I figured it would have taken us about 3/4 of the day to do this job.The guy called back and said that he appreciated my time,but he found someone that would do it for $500.This tree had a 32 inch trunk,and most of it had to be roped down.I don't know how in the hell whoever this was can do this and put any money in their pocket.
Three months ago I had a guy who wanted me to sub some work for him.He has a rather large outfit,enough equipment for three crews,but this guy works alone.I looked at the first job for him,it was a HUGE white oak over power lines and a house....I told him 1800...He said he didn't have but 1200 in the whole job.It would have taken possibly two full days to finish this tree.The next job was 60 pine trees.All had to be topped,then dropped to save some of the smaller trees and vegitation around them.Easily a four to to five day job.I said I would do it for $80 a tree since I knew I could make up the price difference out of the value of the wood...He only had $50 per tree in the job.It may sound that I'm too high anyway,but the smallest tree here was at least 20 inches and all of the brush had to be chipped.
The frustration I have been through in the last two years has almost made me want to find something else to get into,but on the other hand,Why should I let these idiots shut my business down that I have worked so hard to build.I am trying to come up with a solution to this every day.Things are even so slow for me right now that I have equipment that badly needs work,and I can't afford it.It wouldn't even be a problem if some of the jobs I have bid would have come through,but they didn't because of the "yahoos" around here.I know things will pick up,but I do share your frustration.:bang: :bang:

 

[treeman82]

I had looked at 2 cottonweeds over the summer. 3' diameter each, next to the driveway, road, some lines, a septic system, etc. Not horrid trees, but the wood had to go as did the chips. I told the guy $2500 because I had a job with his brother anyways and it would be a group deal. Somebody else came in and did it for $900 "because they have a bucket truck." I don't mind working for cheap if it's a friend or a friend of a friend. However to work for a complete stranger for nothing is not my idea of a good time.

 

[JayD]

Hi Ya All,
I hear ya, all the way out here down under...and it's just as frustrating and annoying for the want of more vulgar words !..we go out of our way to get insured,learn how to do things right,and some clown with no insurance..no real idea of how to do the job properly..gets it down by hit and miss gets the job....and what peeves me off you know they virtually worked for nothing and dumped their waste on the side of the road,you see it all to often here...but we are also not regulated..all you need here is a wheelbarrow and a chainsaw and away you go...we handle it here by if you cant make a buck on don't do it,do extra with a smile,and be as professional as possible,they don't expect us to act like a scholar,just talk to them with respect and explain your actions without talking down to them,folk like this approach..nothing beats word of mouth and I think this is how you tackle the bozo's out there.
That's me done! I feel better now.

 

[a_lopa]

I dont have any of these frustrations anymore,if i dont want to do something i DONT.

Why not put your energys into crushing your competitors?

 

[Ekka]

No shortage of hacks here .... I see half a dozen every day, everywhere, it's a disease.

 

[Munkee feet]

Point of view

I feel your frustrations. But I don't believe that it is the others that are frustrating you. You are frustrated by how you see the sitution...possably powerless or whatever. I am not into god or anything...but that prayer that says to Change the things you can, accept things you can not change and the wistom to know the differance is pretty powerful! I laughed the first time a hack worked 1/2 price to me...because I know for a fact that he will starve to death and be out of business in no time.

I would suggest not working for them any longer and put your energy towards making your bis. better. imo. munkee feet

 

[lxt]

I stated this situation in a post elsewhere heres what I did,seemed to work for me!! got a job with one of the big companies but pushed my business on the side bigtime!! although I have a loyal, hard working team that worked with me which made it easier. reason for this I took myself out of the equation somewhat atleast on a daily basis thereby allowing my men to make more $$$ and a somewhat lower bidding practice being used made my CO. more competitive. This didnt last long because the hacks lowered their bid even more only problem for them was WORKING CAPITAL, they have none, so when something broke no $$ to fix,must rent oh crap nothin to show for hard work, not worth it they moved on!!!!! atleast the worst ones anyhow(thank god) so if you can!!! join em--for a lil while,sooner or later they are gonna cave & the natural order will once again be made right(HOPEFULLY).

ps-if they suck doing it for themselves,no company is gonna want em!!!

good luck LXT.................................

 

[adam]

Treeman82,

There are two suggestions, both won't provide immediate resolve to your challenge.

1. Regulation

It is amazing to think that arboriculture or tree work is unregulated. Basically anyone with a chain saw and a little mixed fuel can do this kind of work. Here in Canada, we only have one province that regulated the industry, Manitoba. There you must be licensed and meet other requirements (i.e. liability insurance, etc.). Should tree service be a more regulated industry? If you and others in your area think so, lobby accordingly.

2. Salesmanship

Educating prospective clients on issues such as their vicarious liability (look up this term and know it) for the contractors they hire. Knowing that they may be legally responsible for injuries to worker's or the public should an incident arise during the work being performed as well as a result of the work performed (or expertise rendered or not rendered) may encourage them to do business with legitimate companies.

I read and replied to your related post regarding liability issues. Surprised you didn't respond further. Am interested in discussing this further with you.

Scott

"Vicarious liability"... legal stuff makes me shiver, but I'm going to check it out anyway. Great suggestions, Scott