Dump trailer wouldn't dispose of root balls.

[softdown]

It got more than 1/2 as high as needed after adding 3 quarts of bar oil (all I had). Then it didn't want to come down though eventually did come down.

Maybe 3 quarts of fluid got squeezed out the top of the hydraulic fluid reservoir when it did finally come down. It seem like the fuild reservoir is far too small.

Ordered a 20 quart hydraulic unti when I got back. Appears to be ~ 8 quarts larger than the present reservoir. This dump trailer is 20' long and has two large hydraulic cylinders.


Appears the defunct manufacturer tried to use a hydraulic reservoir that was much too small. They went out of business pretty quick. I don't think dealers and customers would have been too impressed.

I could have just added a gallon every time I used it I guess.

 

[JRM]

Dump trailers have small reservoirs by design, there only needs to be enough oil to fill the lift cylinder(s) at full extension plus enough to keep the pump happy. As long as there are no leaks the system should work as designed barring an issue with a pump.....or improper oil.
The heaviest oil viscosity my dump trailer specs is AW32 and it goes lighter visc from there the colder the ambient Temps. Bar oil is insanely heavy compared to AW32 which is equivalent to SAE10w oil, for reference.

The reservoir on my 14k gvw dump trailer. Approximately 1.5 gallons, by memory.



You could certianlg have a solenoid valve acting up, or a pump. Need to start over with proper level and oil type and go from there with Description of specific problems

 

[GeeVee]

I'm no expert, but I agree with above. My understanding having replaced a motor on my 6x12 6 ton with twin rams and a 2 gallon tank, is the rams hold a capacity on the "other" side, and the lines have capacity within theselves as well. Mine is power up and gravity down. My hydraulic guy told me about the volume being availible and being part of useable stored volume.

Using bar oil in a pinch? Well, I think you're going to have to empty every lline and open the rams and drain them too, thats way to heavy and your pump may not like it at all.- without even knowng what kind of pump you're running..... I use ATF, the recomeded by Barnes.

 

[softdown]

Appreciate all the input. This trailer is an odd story. Built in 2018 by a defunct manufacturer. Very large - 20' long and 4' tall sides. The hydraulics had a couple missing parts when purchased. The last owners just used a fork lift to raise and lower. Pretty sure they gave up on the hydraulics.

I have no experience with hydraulics so I took it to a mechanic - of sorts. Obtained the magnetic pieces that were needed - that sit on the motor. The mechanic hooked everything up - it was kind of a mess. The bed lifted all the way when I picked ip up. But lost several quarts when settling down. This also happened to me when I tried it at home. That was 2021.

Memories faded and I'm crazy busy this year. Took it to the dump and it only lifted halfway. Dump is 1 1/2 hour drive and I paid of course. So I was desparate to dump my load of root balls. Two quarts lifted to quite a bit more. Another quart was good for another 1 1/2' or so. Still not close to enough. Had to use a chain and a post and do one root ball at a time. This was a rough experience.

Finally got unloaded and finally got the trailer down. It squeezed out all the fluid that I put in. It has now done that three out of three times.

I just don't have the time to mess with this. Have a roof and deck and a tough paint job that need done before winter. Wintoer comes a month early in the Colorado mountains. And I can't seem to get a single thing down without people messing things up. Special ordered the shingles on Monday and paid. The order never got placed. Not I have to drive 300 miles or wait a week. Assuming the store has the shingles they show they have. 50/50 chance of that being optimistic.

If I have to use another $100 of fluid I won't blink for a second. I bought $300,000 worth of used equipment and EVERYTHING needs work. What I do not have is the time and energy to fine tune everything when I can't get anything done correctly by hardly anybody else. Rural life: "You in hurry? We should have that in in three weeks." It never seems to come in. So UPS stops by every day. With empty boxes etc.

My new phone is an absolute piece of dysfunctional garbage. My new computer is not far behind. Everybody seems to be out of most everything and prices are skyrocketing for the stuff I buy.

Just can't wait for 84,000 agents to destroy what little is left. They will go after everybody trying to make it. Those people have write offs. How I wish I had retired even though business is great. The hassles and frustrations are just killing me.

I have 30 gallons of super tech 303 hydraulic fluid I'd love to get rid of. Of course they make finding the viscosity as difficult as possible. Like almost everything else. I'll stop back later for my requisite dollops of abuse. Now where is that one special mod?

 

[FlyingDutchman]

You can calculate the volume of oil you need by calculating the volume of the cylinder rods will displace when it's extended and adding a half gallon or so. Lots of the companies that sell the pumps sell reservoirs of different sizes. Bucher or Monarch for instance. An authorized dealer of the power unit should be able to order and install the correct reservoir.

If its Chinese well looks like you're f***ed.

 

[JRM]

How is the condition of your battery?
Believe it or not a weak/underperforming battery will cause exactly what you describe. Not enough voltage to hold the solenoids open for the fluid to run the proper path and a mess ensues.
If your battery is good it's a good possibility it's just a faulty solenoid. A good trailer shop should figure it out easy enough. I sure wouldn't use it as is for simple aggravation and possibly getting into a real jam where you have to leave the trailer somewhere, or at the least drag around a loaded trailer that you can't unload. Plus why waste money in oil and time when it just needs fixed.....but that's just me.
One other option is just buy a new assembly and be done. It's a simple swap. This is my unit here in my Load Trail


"12V KTI Hydraulic Pump | DC-45061 | Premium Supply" https://premium-supply.com/collecti...ucts/double-acting-hydraulic-6-quart-kti-pump

They have several options to choose from based on your rigs size. I would contact them with your specifics they will help you choose the correct pack. Of course there are cheaper options out there but you get what you pay for and I dont know the quality of any except KTI. KTI is the OEM supplier to many dump trailer manufacturers.

 

[softdown]

How is the condition of your battery?
Believe it or not a weak/underperforming battery will cause exactly what you describe. Not enough voltage to hold the solenoids open for the fluid to run the proper path and a mess ensues.
If your battery is good it's a good possibility it's just a faulty solenoid. A good trailer shop should figure it out easy enough. I sure wouldn't use it as is for simple aggravation and possibly getting into a real jam where you have to leave the trailer somewhere, or at the least drag around a loaded trailer that you can't unload. Plus why waste money in oil and time when it just needs fixed.....but that's just me.
One other option is just buy a new assembly and be done. It's a simple swap. This is my unit here in my Load Trail


"12V KTI Hydraulic Pump | DC-45061 | Premium Supply" https://premium-supply.com/collecti...ucts/double-acting-hydraulic-6-quart-kti-pump

They have several options to choose from based on your rigs size. I would contact them with your specifics they will help you choose the correct pack. Of course there are cheaper options out there but you get what you pay for and I dont know the quality of any except KTI. KTI is the OEM supplier to many dump trailer manufacturers.

New last fall. Charged every month. Read 12.51 volts when I got home. The reservoir holds enough fluid to inflate both cylinders when it is full. But I lose an ~ gallon, perhaps more, every time the bed comes back down. It may be a fault somewhere in the hydraulic assembly but I'd rather just replace it than mess with it when it is quite doubtful that I can fix it.

The fact that the last owners bought it new in 2018 then gave up on it and used a forklift? That likely says something was seriously wrong with it.

20' trailer with two very cylinders. Guessing 4 1/2" in diameter, perhaps 5". I'd go measure but I have to take down a dangerous tree next to a house in a few hours.

 

[joe25DA]

Appreciate all the input. This trailer is an odd story. Built in 2018 by a defunct manufacturer. Very large - 20' long and 4' tall sides. The hydraulics had a couple missing parts when purchased. The last owners just used a fork lift to raise and lower. Pretty sure they gave up on the hydraulics.

I have no experience with hydraulics so I took it to a mechanic - of sorts. Obtained the magnetic pieces that were needed - that sit on the motor. The mechanic hooked everything up - it was kind of a mess. The bed lifted all the way when I picked ip up. But lost several quarts when settling down. This also happened to me when I tried it at home. That was 2021.

Memories faded and I'm crazy busy this year. Took it to the dump and it only lifted halfway. Dump is 1 1/2 hour drive and I paid of course. So I was desparate to dump my load of root balls. Two quarts lifted to quite a bit more. Another quart was good for another 1 1/2' or so. Still not close to enough. Had to use a chain and a post and do one root ball at a time. This was a rough experience.

Finally got unloaded and finally got the trailer down. It squeezed out all the fluid that I put in. It has now done that three out of three times.

I just don't have the time to mess with this. Have a roof and deck and a tough paint job that need done before winter. Wintoer comes a month early in the Colorado mountains. And I can't seem to get a single thing down without people messing things up. Special ordered the shingles on Monday and paid. The order never got placed. Not I have to drive 300 miles or wait a week. Assuming the store has the shingles they show they have. 50/50 chance of that being optimistic.

If I have to use another $100 of fluid I won't blink for a second. I bought $300,000 worth of used equipment and EVERYTHING needs work. What I do not have is the time and energy to fine tune everything when I can't get anything done correctly by hardly anybody else. Rural life: "You in hurry? We should have that in in three weeks." It never seems to come in. So UPS stops by every day. With empty boxes etc.

My new phone is an absolute piece of dysfunctional garbage. My new computer is not far behind. Everybody seems to be out of most everything and prices are skyrocketing for the stuff I buy.

Just can't wait for 84,000 agents to destroy what little is left. They will go after everybody trying to make it. Those people have write offs. How I wish I had retired even though business is great. The hassles and frustrations are just killing me.

I have 30 gallons of super tech 303 hydraulic fluid I'd love to get rid of. Of course they make finding the viscosity as difficult as possible. Like almost everything else. I'll stop back later for my requisite dollops of abuse. Now where is that one special mod?

That touchole made himself a private army.

 

[JRM]

Defunct trailer manufacturers can be a real mess. Especially when they know they are going out of business and begin cutting corners to pump out products with speed over quality as a metric. I bought a Branson 14k tilt deck in 2008 or 9, right before they went out of business. Paint was literally peeling in sheets within a few months due to lack of surface prep. Many welds lacked penetration some weren't even finished just barely tacked. I removed the wood deck and welded everything that looked suspect. Built a custom head ache rack to mount my winch to that aligned with the angle of the tilt. A few years later we went through and hand tooled and painted the whole trailer. I've had to rebuild the knife edge on the deck since. The fenders are in need of replacement. Aside from that it's been a decent trailer overall. It was cheaper than the other trailers at the time that I couldn't afford and I took a gamble. Live and learn.

 

[cookies]

some dump systems are not capable of lifting the rated weight of the trailer, they will bypass pump pressure during the initial lift attempt . It almost sounds like you have a line backwards to one of the cylinders or a bad solenoid since they use a small fluid capacity to control the large. Use this set of directions to check the hookups, pressure test the sides of the cylinders. I would start by draining the reservoir and refilling with what the pump (inspect the pump pickup) calls for then follow the system bleed instructions at the bottom of the page listed here.
http://cdn.premium-supply.com/KTI_Docs/double-acting-pump-manual.pdf

 

[fields_mj]

New last fall. Charged every month. Read 12.51 volts when I got home. The reservoir holds enough fluid to inflate both cylinders when it is full. But I lose an ~ gallon, perhaps more, every time the bed comes back down. It may be a fault somewhere in the hydraulic assembly but I'd rather just replace it than mess with it when it is quite doubtful that I can fix it.

The fact that the last owners bought it new in 2018 then gave up on it and used a forklift? That likely says something was seriously wrong with it.

20' trailer with two very cylinders. Guessing 4 1/2" in diameter, perhaps 5". I'd go measure but I have to take down a dangerous tree next to a house in a few hours.

You loose a gallon every time the bed comes down? Where does it go? The only way to loose it is if it comes out of the system and pump it out on the ground. If you're actually loosing fluid, find the leak and fix it.

If it was a pump or valve/solenoid issue, the oil level would remain the same. It would just get sent back to the reservoir instead of into the cylinder.

Another possibility is that you have a lot of air in the system, and it's purging some out every time you cycle the cylinder. If this is the case, the bad news is that since you mixed in the bar oil, you now get to drain the system and start over.

 

[softdown]

You loose a gallon every time the bed comes down? Where does it go? The only way to loose it is if it comes out of the system and pump it out on the ground. If you're actually loosing fluid, find the leak and fix it.

Another possibility is that you have air in the system, and it's purging some out every time you cycle the cylinder. If this is the case, the bad news is that since you mixed in the bar oil, you now get to drain the system and start over.

It comes out the top of the reservoir. I did go to a dump trailer dealer first. They knew almost nothing about the hydraulics. But they were expensive.

 

[softdown]

some dump systems are not capable of lifting the rated weight of the trailer, they will bypass pump pressure during the initial lift attempt . It almost sounds like you have a line backwards to one of the cylinders since they use a small fluid capacity to control the large. Use this set of directions to check the hookups, pressure test the sides of the cylinders. I would start by draining the reservoir and refilling with what the pump (inspect the pump pickup) calls for then follow the system bleed instructions at the bottom of the page listed here.
http://cdn.premium-supply.com/KTI_Docs/double-acting-pump-manual.pdf

Please Note: When running your hydraulic power unit for the f irst time, do not allow the
fluid to drop below the half full level, while raising or extending the hydraulic cylinder.
This will cause the pow er unit to induce air into the sys tem. During activation of the down
function, the a i r i n t h e s y s t e m w i l l c a u s e a e r a t i o n o f t h e f l u i d a n d
o v e r f l o w t h e r e s e r v o i r t a n k .

That sounds familiar.

 

[fields_mj]

When it overflows, what color is it? Aeration is foaming. If your oil is foaming, it will be creamy instead of clear/amber. It can happen as you described, or because your filter is plugged, or because you have mixed oil in your system, or because you're using the wrong oil, or because you have a leak between the reservoir and the pump that's allowing air into your system.

 

[JRM]

Please Note: When running your hydraulic power unit for the f irst time, do not allow the
fluid to drop below the half full level, while raising or extending the hydraulic cylinder.
This will cause the pow er unit to induce air into the sys tem. During activation of the down
function, the a i r i n t h e s y s t e m w i l l c a u s e a e r a t i o n o f t h e f l u i d a n d
o v e r f l o w t h e r e s e r v o i r t a n k .

That sounds familiar.

Which is also often caused by a weak or underperforming battery. Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but it is more common than many realize.

 

[softdown]

Which is also often caused by a weak or underperforming battery. Not trying to beat a dead horse here, but it is more common than many realize.

Battery is almost new and the largest that would fit. Still had 12.51 volts after several very prolonged efforts to raise all the way. I said that earlier and you continue to "beat the dead horse". Why? 12.2 volts is 50% discharged fwiw. 12.6 is often considered a full charge though some want 12.8 showing.

 

[JRM]

Easy, fella, just trying to help. Your here posting questions so I assume you are looking for advice. You stated its new which means not a lot, batteries fail right out of the box on occasion. Resting voltage means little when diagnosing a problem. I've got one in the shop right now that shows 12.4 on a volt meter - it's got a dead cell showed by a simple load test. Pulls right down to ~10 volts instantly. I'm not there so I don't know anything other than what your telling us, which isn't much. Good luck.

 

[softdown]

Thanks for all the ideas folks. Many things are clearly possible. For now I'm running with the theory that the reservoir is undersized. Checked my cylinders yesterday. They are almost 5" in circumference and this trailer is a 20' model. While the reservoir is a standard size. This manufacturer was only in business for a very short time. Excessive weight (extremely heavy due to ~24" I-beams) and an under size reservoir would do that.

Apparently AW32 is a standard viscosity unless operating in Fairbanks, Alaska during the winter. Getting the 30 weight bar oil out should be straight forward. Interesting that my skid steer calls for 15W-40 diesel oil in its hydraulics. Kubota and Takeuchi both do that.

But skid steer hydraulics and dump trailer hydraulics are clearly very, very different. They also approve ATF transmission fluid for hydraulic presses. Or AW32 which, as memory serves, is an ~ viscosity of 20 weight oil. Going from memory here.

 

[softdown]

Easy, fella, just trying to help. Your here posting questions so I assume you are looking for advice. You stated its new which means not a lot, batteries fail right out of the box on occasion. Resting voltage means little when diagnosing a problem. I've got one in the shop right now that shows 12.4 on a volt meter - it's got a dead cell showed by a simple load test. Pulls right down to ~10 volts instantly. I'm not there so I don't know anything other than what your telling us, which isn't much. Good luck.

A dead cell removes ~2.15 volts from the 6 x 2.15 volts = ~12.8 volts You would show ~10.5 volts with a dead cell. I've bought and sold dozens and dozens of batteries, mostly solar, over the years. I know batteries pretty well.

If you have a dead cell the rest of the battery is about 99% likely to be at less than 33% new capacity. Thus dropping down to 10 volts (dead). 10.5 volts is a dead battery.

Help is nice but when you come back three times with the same answer is of interest.

Good day. And remember: There is only Ingsoc.

 

[JRM]

10.5 volts is a dead battery.

Dead in terms of starting an engine, sure. It'll still partially run a pump, like in your scenario. The video I linked the guy was able to draw the battery down to under 7 volts and it was still lifting the (empty) trailer. It was also causing oil to spew out the resevoir on the down cycle which is the only reason I posted it.

Help is nice but when you come back three times with the same answer is of interest.

I only mentioned it for the 2nd time when you got cranky. I was just trying to make sure you understood a batteries resting voltage doesn't mean much. Most people that understand how batteries function do load tests to verify condition. Didn't think it was that big a deal. Hope you get it fixed.