Electric/gas 37 ton Northern

rx7145 · Sep 19, 2007

Well I could't leave good enough alone. I added a 4hp electric motor and a 16gpm pump to my new splitter.

I used two check valves to prevent backflow to the pumps. Had a friend make up the motor bracket that bolts around the tank. This setup is fully reversible if need be.

My only problem is heat. Splitter has a 9.5 gal hyd. system. At first I thought the check valves were making all the heat (and I'm sure that are making some) but after bypassing the check valves and just running right from the pump I'm still seeing temps into the high 130's-140's. I think it would have went higher if I had split longer. With the check valves I saw 150. I running ATF. My question is: How hot is too hot. I read on here at 180 is about as high as you want to go.

I called northern and they were blaming the ATF untill I read out of the manuel that ATF was recommended above 70*. They said that if you cant touch the ram that somthing is wrong with the splitter. (note: The splitter will still get so hot that I can not thouch the ram with the factory set up.)

:bang: :bang:

infomet · Sep 19, 2007

Is your bypass working properly?
I split all day with a 12HP gas unit and it barely warms up!
Something is doing a lot of work to heat you that much!

Butch(OH) · Sep 19, 2007

My splitter oil never gets above hardly warm to the touch and thats after a long session. Runs so cold I have troubles with moisture build up in the oil tank. Near as I can tell from looking at the photos your plumbing looks OK. The ATF is not causing the problem no matter what NH says. First thing we need to know is; Did the splitter had the heat problem before you added the pump and motor?

triptester · Sep 19, 2007

Looking at the pics I see both pumps have JIC fittings with long sweep elbows. My brother had the same fittings on his splitter and he also had a heat build-up problem. He changed the the hoses and fittings to regular hose and hydraulic fittings and heat build-up was greatly reduced.

When comparing fittings the JIC fittings had only a 5/16" orifice and the long sweep tubes had a 3/8" I.D. for 1/2" hose. The regular hydraulic fittings had just under a 1/2" orifice.

rx7145 · Sep 19, 2007

infomet said:
Is your bypass working properly?
I split all day with a 12HP gas unit and it barely warms up!
Something is doing a lot of work to heat you that much!

Bypass, is that in the valve assy? It might not be working. The auto retract keeps kicking off before the ram is all the way back. related?

Northern is sending me a new valve so I'll find out.

rx7145 · Sep 19, 2007

triptester said:
Looking at the pics I see both pumps have JIC fittings with long sweep elbows. My brother had the same fittings on his splitter and he also had a heat build-up problem. He changed the the hoses and fittings to regular hose and hydraulic fittings and heat build-up was greatly reduced.

When comparing fittings the JIC fittings had only a 5/16" orifice and the long sweep tubes had a 3/8" I.D. for 1/2" hose. The regular hydraulic fittings had just under a 1/2" orifice.

Funny I wanted the swept JIC to cut down on heat.

The factory setup still gets up to 140* which seems to hot, the JIC and check valves send it over the edge. It seems like something else is going on.

I read that a internal leak in the cylinder will cause a lot of heat build up. how could I tell is that is the problem?

And does anyone else have a 37 ton northern splitter that they can let me know what there temps are?

Thanks for everyones help and suggestions. :clap:

infomet · Sep 19, 2007

The bypass is in the valve, to route the flow straight back to the tank when the ram is not moving. If it's not working, there's lots of turbulence and pressure drop across it, which consumes energy that appears as heat in the oil. A pressure gage on the high pressure side of the valve will show you what's going on.

I don't think a leak inside the cylinder would cause heat.

rx7145 · Sep 19, 2007

infomet said:
The bypass is in the valve, to route the flow straight back to the tank when the ram is not moving. If it's not working, there's lots of turbulence and pressure drop across it, which consumes energy that appears as heat in the oil. A pressure gage on the high pressure side of the valve will show you what's going on.

I don't think a leak inside the cylinder would cause heat.

Ok I'll look into that. Northern is already sending me a new valve because the return keeps kicking out before the end of the cycle. That may fix it. (Oh how I hope)

Today with the electric motor running through the check valve it took a hour to go from 75* to 153*. Tomorrow I'll use just the Honda with the factory set up.

Tim321 · Sep 19, 2007

Close center valve

Sounds like the valve is set for a close center system, forcing oil though the relieve valve instead of bypassing back to tank. Easy way to check is to run the motor without using the splitter. If oil is flowing though the relieve valve the oil temperature will raise faster when your not using the ram. Some valves can be change between open and close center systems.

Patrick62 · Sep 19, 2007

I love it!

That is a awsum way to go! Dual powered splitter. And the electric is oh so quiet! :rock:

How hot? I got sorta the same problem. 16gpm, and skinny 1/2 hoses with small fittings. I can see temps in the 120 range with 16 gallons in a 20 gallon tank. It takes a couple of hours to warm it that far.

Think about it this way, how hot does ATF get in your pickup? Remember that they stuck the "cooler" in the bottom of your radiator! Where it is gonna see atleast 150

-Pat

Fubar411 · Sep 21, 2007

You have to post info on the electric pump. This is definitely the way to go!

rx7145 · Sep 21, 2007

Fubar411 said:
You have to post info on the electric pump. This is definitely the way to go!

The electric pump was not hard at all. I searched ebay for a 4-5 HP 56C frame. I read that you need a 2hp for a 11gpm pump and 4-5hp for a 16gpm pump. ( I would go with a 5hp as the 4hp gets a work out but still works ok.) Then go the Grainger and get the pump mount (6z070) and the lovejoy couplers (4x182,5x447,3kx92) and bolt it all together.

Al Smith · Sep 22, 2007

I doubt the JIC fittings will cause heat.Just about every industrial application uses them.

If the control valve or the cylinder is bypassing, those will cause plenty of heat.

rx7145 · Sep 22, 2007

Well I ran it today with the stock setup using the Honda engine. In one hour it went from 77* to 143*. After 2.5hours it was at 158*. After 150* is seems to gain heat slowly. So now I'm wondering what the normal temp is for a 37 ton Northern?

rx7145 · Sep 22, 2007

Al Smith said:
I doubt the JIC fittings will cause heat.Just about every industrial application uses them.

If the control valve or the cylinder is bypassing, those will cause plenty of heat.

How do I tell is the cyl. is baypassing?

I think the bypass is ok as the engine is not lugged down like it is making 2500psi. (i.e. not in low "gear")

leon · Sep 22, 2007

splitter

rx7145 said:
How do I tell is the cyl. is baypassing?

I think the bypass is ok as the engine is not lugged down like it is making 2500psi. (i.e. not in low "gear")

If the cylinder is bypassing your piston packing is shot or the orings may be blown-or the piston may not have an o ring sealing/separating the rod fliud from the base-rear barrel end.

The check valves- are they parker hannafin? if so the fluid flow is stamped on the housing-the oil could be leaking through the opposite check valve and
creating heat or the check valve is not plumbed correctly allowing oil to bang against the electric pump and heat up.

Checking for bypass in a cylinder is easy-tow hydraulic pressure gauges and pipe T's to fit the barrel ports- buy hydraulic rated fittings and gauges only.

When you start splitting the cylinder port that is working the hardest will have a visible drop in oil pressure as it is controlled at the valve spool.

also when the cylinder is stopped the pressure should be right up there and if it is not you have a problem at the valve or cylinder.

If your cylinder is laboring to split it is bypassing either in the cylinder or the relief valve is kicking open.

Please please post more photos of the hydraulic circuit, a schematic if possible of the original and the current set up of plumbing and valve and fittings. Also be aware that the control valve needs to have the proper size hose for the pressure side and the return side of an open center system and sometimes the people that build these things do not use the proper sized fittings!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and it creates huge amounts of turbulence and air bubbles/hammering.

Hydraulic systems get very hot and function better at hotter temps-which relates to more efficient fluid power.

I would change the ATF to all temperature hydraulic oil as it is rated at 10 weight anyway, change the filter, check and clean the suction screen if you have one, remove the check valves to be sure they are plumbed correctly to control the fluid path and to gaurantee no debris is lodged in the check valve-only because it does happen and will add to the heat load of the log splitter.
every check valve has oil path directions stamped into the body of the valve as well-at least the european and usa products.

You would be surprised to see how much crap is in a new installation also check the hose ends to check for rubber in the hose that may have peeled away from the inner wall of the hose as this will create a lot of heat as well

:chainsaw:

:greenchainsaw:

Al Smith · Sep 23, 2007

We ran type A or automatic tranny fluid in the line equipment ,because of cold weather.It never caused a heat problem,using a 3000 psi Commercial Shearing pump,at over 30 gallon per minute.Using normal hydraulic fluid at zero degrees it took 15 minutes before you could raise the boom on the line trucks.

A little correction on my last post where I said "JIC" fittings.Not so,properly called SAE fittings i.e. 37 degree taper.JIC stands for joint industry commision,a consortium of the "big three" auto makers.

Back to the hot splitter.Something is most definately out of kelter because that thing shouldn't get that hot.If that thing has a blown ring in the cylinder,it acts like blowing oil though an orface and it will most definately get rather warm.

If for example,that thing shifts gears to the low volume pump and you bottom the cylinder,the governer should really crack on that engine.The relief should lift also.If you do all that and the relief is not howling,I'd look at the cylinder.

Now,not to make sport of the splitter but it's a known fact that most commercial splitters don't use the most heavy duty of cylinders.I would suspect that this praticular one does not have steel piston rings.I would speculate that it does use buna-n cup seals which are ok but not nearly as tough as steel rings.If so,cup seals are relatively inexpensive to replace.

046 · Sep 23, 2007

this narrows down problem to original setup.

no way should your 37ton splitter heat up to 143degrees in one hour.
my 35ton speeco barely gets warm after several hours of heavy use.

rx7145 said:
Well I ran it today with the stock setup using the Honda engine. In one hour it went from 77* to 143*. After 2.5hours it was at 158*. After 150* is seems to gain heat slowly. So now I'm wondering what the normal temp is for a 37 ton Northern?

rx7145 · Sep 23, 2007

leon said:
If the cylinder is bypassing your piston packing is shot or the orings may be blown-or the piston may not have an o ring sealing/separating the rod fliud from the base-rear barrel end.

The check valves- are they parker hannafin? if so the fluid flow is stamped on the housing-the oil could be leaking through the opposite check valve and
creating heat or the check valve is not plumbed correctly allowing oil to bang against the electric pump and heat up.

Yes they are Parker valves, And yes the flow is stamped in the top the valve. They are plumbed correctly as I first installed one backwards and the engine would stall as soon as it started.

Checking for bypass in a cylinder is easy-tow hydraulic pressure gauges and pipe T's to fit the barrel ports- buy hydraulic rated fittings and gauges only.

When you start splitting the cylinder port that is working the hardest will have a visible drop in oil pressure as it is controlled at the valve spool.

also when the cylinder is stopped the pressure should be right up there and if it is not you have a problem at the valve or cylinder.

If your cylinder is laboring to split it is bypassing either in the cylinder or the relief valve is kicking open.

Splitter does kick down on hard wood and knots but not any more than I would expect. I don't want to spend $60 on valves and fittings to check the cylender if I dont have to. Also cycle times seem to be close to what northern clams as I got around a 15sec time. (Northern says 14sec)

Please please post more photos of the hydraulic circuit, a schematic if possible of the original and the current set up of plumbing and valve and fittings. Also be aware that the control valve needs to have the proper size hose for the pressure side and the return side of an open center system and sometimes the people that build these things do not use the proper sized fittings!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and it creates huge amounts of turbulence and air bubbles/hammering.

Good point see the schematic attached. If northern uses the wrong lines from the factory I would think that I would not be the only one with this problem.

Hydraulic systems get very hot and function better at hotter temps-which relates to more efficient fluid power.

True 153-160* could be the best temp for the system.

I would change the ATF to all temperature hydraulic oil as it is rated at 10 weight anyway, change the filter, check and clean the suction screen if you have one, remove the check valves to be sure they are plumbed correctly to control the fluid path and to gaurantee no debris is lodged in the check valve-only because it does happen and will add to the heat load of the log splitter.
every check valve has oil path directions stamped into the body of the valve as well-at least the european and usa products.

I don't want to change from ATF as I all ready spent $70 on oil that northern recommends for temps above 70*. I could do this as a last resort but I'm thinking i'll just take it the the northern repair center 45min away before doing all that.

You would be surprised to see how much crap is in a new installation also check the hose ends to check for rubber in the hose that may have peeled away from the inner wall of the hose as this will create a lot of heat as well

:greenchainsaw:

Thanks for all your help :clap:

rx7145 · Sep 23, 2007

Al Smith said:
We ran type A or automatic tranny fluid in the line equipment ,because of cold weather.It never caused a heat problem,using a 3000 psi Commercial Shearing pump,at over 30 gallon per minute.Using normal hydraulic fluid at zero degrees it took 15 minutes before you could raise the boom on the line trucks.

My dad always used ATF is his trucks for this reason.

A little correction on my last post where I said "JIC" fittings.Not so,properly called SAE fittings i.e. 37 degree taper.JIC stands for joint industry commision,a consortium of the "big three" auto makers.

I did't know that. But now I do, thanks

Back to the hot splitter.Something is most definately out of kelter because that thing shouldn't get that hot.If that thing has a blown ring in the cylinder,it acts like blowing oil though an orface and it will most definately get rather warm.

If for example,that thing shifts gears to the low volume pump and you bottom the cylinder,the governer should really crack on that engine.The relief should lift also.If you do all that and the relief is not howling,I'd look at the cylinder.

When the splitter is bottomed (out as far as it will go) the engine (or motor) will bog way down. So could I hear the relief opening? I guess I never listened.

Now,not to make sport of the splitter but it's a known fact that most commercial splitters don't use the most heavy duty of cylinders.I would suspect that this praticular one does not have steel piston rings.I would speculate that it does use buna-n cup seals which are ok but not nearly as tough as steel rings.If so,cup seals are relatively inexpensive to replace.

Very true this cyl is made in china just like the HF ones:censored:

thanks for your help :clap:

Electric/gas 37 ton Northern

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