1/3 Diameter Notch Rule
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smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
straight bars
"Now lets expand on this, when the notches apex and the backcut are straight that would also make the hingewood more straight and uniform. Would this not make the hinge stronger and more stable? "
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Emphasis in this question should be is the sapwood equal on both sides with bar curves on any given tree?
The holding wood being equal would make for a more stable hinge. So, if the bars length fit the tree in the sense that those slight curves in the sapwood were the same. No differance'.
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So next time take two carpenters squares and put them back to back in the face and see if they match exactly.
My experience has been they don't ............ exactly. (never had a canon bar)
But this is splitting a fairly small hair.
Try sighting sticks, (or cord), for actually being accurate.
When one steps up to matching cuts, (shorter bars in bigger diameters), is the curve of the tip being more pronounced a greater effect than the curve on the saw side of the bar?
Splitting hairs when dealing with heartwood.
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What I would say is that these are fairly small corrections compared to looking at the sights from above or ignoring the powerhead sight parallax. They are interesting to point out to experienced fallers with the double square tool. They are there, yes.
"Now lets expand on this, when the notches apex and the backcut are straight that would also make the hingewood more straight and uniform. Would this not make the hinge stronger and more stable? "
-----------------
Emphasis in this question should be is the sapwood equal on both sides with bar curves on any given tree?
The holding wood being equal would make for a more stable hinge. So, if the bars length fit the tree in the sense that those slight curves in the sapwood were the same. No differance'.
-------------------
So next time take two carpenters squares and put them back to back in the face and see if they match exactly.
My experience has been they don't ............ exactly. (never had a canon bar)
But this is splitting a fairly small hair.
Try sighting sticks, (or cord), for actually being accurate.
When one steps up to matching cuts, (shorter bars in bigger diameters), is the curve of the tip being more pronounced a greater effect than the curve on the saw side of the bar?
Splitting hairs when dealing with heartwood.
-----------------
What I would say is that these are fairly small corrections compared to looking at the sights from above or ignoring the powerhead sight parallax. They are interesting to point out to experienced fallers with the double square tool. They are there, yes.
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smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
But wait, don't go just yet
Back to the days of the great slaughter.
What falling technique did you use back then?
For the trees bigger than 10 inches.
Was a portion of your 'wedging' accomplished by equipment?
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Still curious on the explanation for SE lean in your location.
Thanks
Back to the days of the great slaughter.
What falling technique did you use back then?
For the trees bigger than 10 inches.
Was a portion of your 'wedging' accomplished by equipment?
------------
Still curious on the explanation for SE lean in your location.
Thanks
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I've not had any spare time, but if I can figure out where it is, the former Stihl tv commercial cutter and now full time insurance seller and part time faller dumped an 11 foot daimeter hazard tree this week and maybe I can get a picture of the "after". It was leaning towards the road but he was able to miss the road. The stump might be interesting.
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
John Pollman
I expect it is a decent stump.
John is incredibly good.
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That family decorated their baby rooms with stihl posters and the kids played with wedges and jacks.
Skipping cowboys and indians they stuck with feds and gypos.
Parents were the whistle punks.
OK, mild exaggeration on all but the first two sentences.
I expect it is a decent stump.
John is incredibly good.
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That family decorated their baby rooms with stihl posters and the kids played with wedges and jacks.
Skipping cowboys and indians they stuck with feds and gypos.
Parents were the whistle punks.
OK, mild exaggeration on all but the first two sentences.
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Last week I was on vacation on a desert island all by myself. Well, plus 300 Boy Scouts. Laying in my tent at night my last though before sleep was- I wonder how the 1/3 notch rule thread is going.
Fuzly
ArboristSite Operative
No doubt-page 21 and still going?
Haywire Haywood
Fiscal Conservative Social Retard
You must have your pages pretty short... only page 8 for me.
Ian
Ian
redprospector
Addicted to ArboristSite
HolmenTree
ArboristSite Guru
Thanks Ian for taking the time to make this more clear. Yes I have been working alot of 14-15 hr. days lately and the old thinker ticker has been lacking in efficiency lately. Cannon being a Canadian company, I didn't think many people on this site would know who they are anyway. Bailey's[everyone knows Baileys] being the worlds largest woodsmen supplier has given Cannon a big contract [probably Cannons biggest] to make their WoodLand Pro bars, so I just used the WoodLand name thinking most everyone here would know who they are.
The last custom bar they made for me was around 1990,[had alot made in the 80's]. But just a few years back I found out they only sell to dealers now in quanity,unless I got some wrong information or most recently they have gone back to their old policies.
Probably the best bar I had made[ and still have it like new] was a hotsaw competition bar made by General Bar Company ,Tigard, Oregon in 1984. The man who built it was named Harley. Harley put such a smooth polished finish on it ,to me was better then chrome. The tolerances are all spot on. The rails never burred with all the abuse they took. But like alot of great companies they no longer exist, I guess they just made their product a little to long lasting.
Willard
HolmenTree
ArboristSite Guru
Sorry it took so long to answer this Smokechase,been a little busy lately, trying to strike a balance with many 14 hr work days and a young family. Yes I still keep that old straight 24" competition bar in my worksaw fleet. Keep it on my old 064 and bring it out for those really tight felling spots in residential tree removal. Yes we can write a book on all the variables in making a notch. We do alot of DED elm removal and the hingewood right through the sapwood and heartwood is all strong. When your notch and backcut are straight you have a nice straight hinge,and when those back fibers start to break as the tree goes over I know they are all breaking evenly. The straight bar is also nice to gunsight with, with a regular curved bar you have to center the middle of the bar with the middle of the notch to get the correct 90 degree with the saws sights. Yes much bigger trees you can sight with many other methods, one is the loggers measuring tape method, I never had to use it but I hear its very accurate.You can buy pretty big carpenter squares, alot bigger then 2'. Yes gunsighting on both sides of the tree are different ,you have a 100ft x24" dia tree and the 2 transit spots at 100' away from both sides of the tree will be greater then 24" apart [look at a pencil close to your eye a few feet from these letters on this post and see how many letters in width the pencil covers, greater then the pencil width right?] So with these 2 transit spots at 100' I use the center between them for my gunsight. Simple physics.
Yes back in the great days of logging slaughter in Northern Manitoba's boreal forest. You all know that the dark green color of the coniferous boreal forest causes global warming? It has been proven . I should get a few responses on this now eh? This forest stretches all the way around to northern Europe and Russia.Biggest in the world. Should be replaced with light colored decidious.
Now where was I? As a logger I cut for 2 of our companies mills ,1 was a large lumbermill 12 acres under 1 roof ,built in 1969. And a large papermill also built in 1969 by the Manitoba government. 1/2 the time I cut smaller pulpwood for the papermill and the other 1/2 larger sawlog timber for the lumber division. In the larger timber I used a humbolt notch [ less waste for lumbermaking] and wedged my backleaners. We worked piecework[by the cord] so if the skidder was close by I would have my partner push it over to save time,but if the foremen caught you leaving cut standing trees and turning your back to them, you were sent home for 3 days for the unsafe practice. We had different wedges for the winter and the summer.Some of the guys liked felling levers in the smaller wood.
In our flat terrain our trees on the average lean to the southeast,I have even seen this all across Europe on a 6 mth backpacking trip my wife and I did back in 2002. In hilly or mountainous terrain it can vary and also trees growing close to bodies of water. But look out your door and see what direction most of your trees tops lean towards to.I bet it is SE. The sunrise in the SE is the greatest effect on a trees growth. Down in Australia Ekkas trees should be leaning to the NE.
Willard
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
SE lean
OK relax on this one. I'm not posting to disagree on this point.
I bet this is true in your location.
Let’s see if we can figure this out.
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Where the morning sun don't shine.
On slopes away from the morning sun, NW, W, and SW where is no direct morning sun if the slope is steep enough at that latitude; there can be no opportunity for the "(SE) greatest effect on a trees growth" to occur. Those trees are getting no morning sun, so this effect is removed as during the morning there is diffuse light.
Which by the way, depending on the latitude and time of year you're at the sunrise varies from the NE to E to SE.
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Now just because this shows an instance of where the SE thing doesn’t occur in topography it doesn’t mean that your point is defunct. I would suggest that it actually would tend to verify the SE thing overall. Although a faller would want to discard the SE sun theory on certain slopes totally.
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A similar view could be held of trees on the edge of a meadow. They very very commonly lean toward the center of the opening. Their chance for greatest light is to have their limbs and top lean toward the available light. The trees beside them restrict sunlight while there is basically unrestricted light toward the meadow.
Now there still may be a slight tendency for the top to lean other than the center. I’ll have to look that over. {My instinct could well be off here as the limb weight is so substantial on the meadow side on these non self pruning trees that the only sensible option is to drop them toward the center. This may be in spite of a top lean elsewhere.}
In any case, don’t react. I think the sunlight lean is prominent and a factor, generally.
There still is a common lean tendency of downhill on slope. I’ve been asking experienced fallers that one for a couple weeks for verification.
Additionally, there are several qualifications to this I’ve heard over the years. Species __________ will lean toward the ___________ on the _______________ slope. None of those claims did I have the experience locally to dispute.
My 7 ½ months traveling by backpack in Europe 1973-1974, (and Israel), were a great experience also. (At no time did I look over trees for their lean tendencies. Nothing for me to draw from there.)
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Now why is the morning sun superior?
I've asked you for the why of this lean. So far I've gotten it’s a fact type of response from you and not why the morning sun is superior.
Why?
Is it because the morning sun is less likely to be obstructed by clouds that typically form later in the day?
====================
Some unrelated trivia:
This probably has nothing to do with this discussion of lean.
In the world of wildland fire fighting, (at this latitude anyway), we focus on the SW sun being the strongest. It has the greatest effect on how dry the live and dead fuels are because that SW sun combined with the heat of the day really cooks those hillsides. It is not just that the fuels are hotter and slightly closer to ignition temps.
It is common in the Great American Steppe of much of the west, where moisture events can be well spaced, to plant trees on the NNE side of a shade obstacles such as a rock or stump. This shade can give a recently transplanted tree just enough additional moisture to make it. We are encouraged not to plant on the N side, but NNE. N and NE are OK if needed but not preferred.
Our fuel moisture/fire behavior tables are based on several factors. Of course the effect of the sun in the afternoon is a primary correction factor.
Again, this probably has no relevance to the SE suns/plant lean.
These tables are not generally used at Canadian and Alaskan latitudes.
Now what might that tend to indicate?
That the latitude one is at can have an effect on the lean.
Anyone want to wade in on this?
OK relax on this one. I'm not posting to disagree on this point.
I bet this is true in your location.
Let’s see if we can figure this out.
-----------------------
Where the morning sun don't shine.
On slopes away from the morning sun, NW, W, and SW where is no direct morning sun if the slope is steep enough at that latitude; there can be no opportunity for the "(SE) greatest effect on a trees growth" to occur. Those trees are getting no morning sun, so this effect is removed as during the morning there is diffuse light.
Which by the way, depending on the latitude and time of year you're at the sunrise varies from the NE to E to SE.
------------------------
Now just because this shows an instance of where the SE thing doesn’t occur in topography it doesn’t mean that your point is defunct. I would suggest that it actually would tend to verify the SE thing overall. Although a faller would want to discard the SE sun theory on certain slopes totally.
*****************************
A similar view could be held of trees on the edge of a meadow. They very very commonly lean toward the center of the opening. Their chance for greatest light is to have their limbs and top lean toward the available light. The trees beside them restrict sunlight while there is basically unrestricted light toward the meadow.
Now there still may be a slight tendency for the top to lean other than the center. I’ll have to look that over. {My instinct could well be off here as the limb weight is so substantial on the meadow side on these non self pruning trees that the only sensible option is to drop them toward the center. This may be in spite of a top lean elsewhere.}
In any case, don’t react. I think the sunlight lean is prominent and a factor, generally.
There still is a common lean tendency of downhill on slope. I’ve been asking experienced fallers that one for a couple weeks for verification.
Additionally, there are several qualifications to this I’ve heard over the years. Species __________ will lean toward the ___________ on the _______________ slope. None of those claims did I have the experience locally to dispute.
My 7 ½ months traveling by backpack in Europe 1973-1974, (and Israel), were a great experience also. (At no time did I look over trees for their lean tendencies. Nothing for me to draw from there.)
*******************
Now why is the morning sun superior?
I've asked you for the why of this lean. So far I've gotten it’s a fact type of response from you and not why the morning sun is superior.
Why?
Is it because the morning sun is less likely to be obstructed by clouds that typically form later in the day?
====================
Some unrelated trivia:
This probably has nothing to do with this discussion of lean.
In the world of wildland fire fighting, (at this latitude anyway), we focus on the SW sun being the strongest. It has the greatest effect on how dry the live and dead fuels are because that SW sun combined with the heat of the day really cooks those hillsides. It is not just that the fuels are hotter and slightly closer to ignition temps.
It is common in the Great American Steppe of much of the west, where moisture events can be well spaced, to plant trees on the NNE side of a shade obstacles such as a rock or stump. This shade can give a recently transplanted tree just enough additional moisture to make it. We are encouraged not to plant on the N side, but NNE. N and NE are OK if needed but not preferred.
Our fuel moisture/fire behavior tables are based on several factors. Of course the effect of the sun in the afternoon is a primary correction factor.
Again, this probably has no relevance to the SE suns/plant lean.
These tables are not generally used at Canadian and Alaskan latitudes.
Now what might that tend to indicate?
That the latitude one is at can have an effect on the lean.
Anyone want to wade in on this?
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smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
face depth
Back to the computer and back to face depth discussion.
Here is another example of a situation where a deeper face, to optimally locate the fulcrum (hinge) can be a nice benefit.
You're dropping a tree at 90 degrees to its lean.
The holding wood is strong on the tension side. You're living right.
This right angle falling success can be enhanced by moving the fulcrum to a point where more of the weight of the tree is overall on the side of the desired direction of fall.
OK, its is offset to the side.
OK, the corner (sapwood) wood needs to be strong enough to assist in pulling the tree regardless of face depth. Tapered hinge a given to provide the sapwood tension side strength.
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There are trees where the lean is so great this 90 degree cannot be accomplished. Understood. {You Dutchman guys stay quiet.)
I'd like the reader to consider that by moving the fulcrum, possibly to the middle of the tree, a cutter can increase the number of leaner’s they can right angle drop within the context of the wedging techniques they use.
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Leverage is important.
Fulcrum placement is important.
Back to the computer and back to face depth discussion.
Here is another example of a situation where a deeper face, to optimally locate the fulcrum (hinge) can be a nice benefit.
You're dropping a tree at 90 degrees to its lean.
The holding wood is strong on the tension side. You're living right.
This right angle falling success can be enhanced by moving the fulcrum to a point where more of the weight of the tree is overall on the side of the desired direction of fall.
OK, its is offset to the side.
OK, the corner (sapwood) wood needs to be strong enough to assist in pulling the tree regardless of face depth. Tapered hinge a given to provide the sapwood tension side strength.
----------------
There are trees where the lean is so great this 90 degree cannot be accomplished. Understood. {You Dutchman guys stay quiet.)
I'd like the reader to consider that by moving the fulcrum, possibly to the middle of the tree, a cutter can increase the number of leaner’s they can right angle drop within the context of the wedging techniques they use.
----------------
Leverage is important.
Fulcrum placement is important.
HolmenTree
ArboristSite Guru
I enjoyed posting on this thread for the last couple of weeks,but now it just appears its just me and you Smokechase. You have a great technical mindset,did you ever fall timber for a living besides doing it in firefighting? Everything you have said in this thread will get a tree on the ground no problem, I'm not going to dispute any of it, its just that I added a little extra for everyone else to enjoy and maybe they can learn from it.
On the SE lean thing, even in Europe in 2002[only time I've being over there] I found SE was also the average dominate lean. The reason I noticed was because 2 years earlier I passed my ISA arborist exam and I was getting right into the trade, so on my trip I was making notes of trees and arborists doing their work over there.From my logging days years earlier cutting blocks of timber and keeping the felling face straight working with the SE lean has always been a mindset for me. A tree or plant biologist could probably answer this one[does the morning sun affect a trees lean in 1 direction] I believe it does. I didn't pursue tree biology because I can make a better living cutting the tree down rather then being a consulting arborist. I do what I do best,at 50 yrs I am now not going to go to university and get a degree. But my gut feeling is that in the trees growing season spring to early fall,the longer sunlit days with sunrise being as early as 4 am and after a night of darkness the tree [ever since as a small sapling] has grown toward that environment [phototropism]. Have you ever noticed leaves on some trees almost twisting upside down when the sun first comes up and then back down again when its the full hot sun of the afternoon?
Anyway we had a great thread here.
Willard.
On the SE lean thing, even in Europe in 2002[only time I've being over there] I found SE was also the average dominate lean. The reason I noticed was because 2 years earlier I passed my ISA arborist exam and I was getting right into the trade, so on my trip I was making notes of trees and arborists doing their work over there.From my logging days years earlier cutting blocks of timber and keeping the felling face straight working with the SE lean has always been a mindset for me. A tree or plant biologist could probably answer this one[does the morning sun affect a trees lean in 1 direction] I believe it does. I didn't pursue tree biology because I can make a better living cutting the tree down rather then being a consulting arborist. I do what I do best,at 50 yrs I am now not going to go to university and get a degree. But my gut feeling is that in the trees growing season spring to early fall,the longer sunlit days with sunrise being as early as 4 am and after a night of darkness the tree [ever since as a small sapling] has grown toward that environment [phototropism]. Have you ever noticed leaves on some trees almost twisting upside down when the sun first comes up and then back down again when its the full hot sun of the afternoon?
Anyway we had a great thread here.
Willard.
secureland
ArboristSite Operative
I enjoyed posting on this thread for the last couple of weeks,but now it just appears its just me and you Smokechase. You have a great technical mindset,did you ever fall timber for a living besides doing it in firefighting? Everything you have said in this thread will get a tree on the ground no problem, I'm not going to dispute any of it, its just that I added a little extra for everyone else to enjoy and maybe they can learn from it.
On the SE lean thing, even in Europe in 2002[only time I've being over there] I found SE was also the average dominate lean. The reason I noticed was because 2 years earlier I passed my ISA arborist exam and I was getting right into the trade, so on my trip I was making notes of trees and arborists doing their work over there.From my logging days years earlier cutting blocks of timber and keeping the felling face straight working with the SE lean has always been a mindset for me. A tree or plant biologist could probably answer this one[does the morning sun affect a trees lean in 1 direction] I believe it does. I didn't pursue tree biology because I can make a better living cutting the tree down rather then being a consulting arborist. I do what I do best,at 50 yrs I am now not going to go to university and get a degree. But my gut feeling is that in the trees growing season spring to early fall,the longer sunlit days with sunrise being as early as 4 am and after a night of darkness the tree [ever since as a small sapling] has grown toward that environment [phototropism]. Have you ever noticed leaves on some trees almost twisting upside down when the sun first comes up and then back down again when its the full hot sun of the afternoon?
Anyway we had a great thread here.
Willard.
Don't forget the wind's long-term effect on a growing tree!
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
science
"I didn't pursue tree biology because I can make a better living cutting the tree down rather then being a consulting arborist. I do what I do best,at 50 yrs I am now not going to go to university and get a degree."
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I'm not in line for a degree at age 56 either.
This is pretty interesting and understanding the why could have some benefits.
I wish I had heard of this before and could have thought it through as I was hearing lean tendency discussions in various places traveling as a fire fighter.
It certainly makes sense that flat ground would show sunlight related tendency's best and then an understanding of topography setting leans could follow.
*************
It seems that the downhill lean tendency often observed in the NW may be nothing more than seeking available light. Instead of the gravity based thought I've simply had and went blindly on with.
Looking at a hillside with a uniform full forest canopy, each trees best access to light is going to be downhill. At least on W - S - E slopes.
Perhaps it is available light and gravity together. Trees are self pruning as they grow up in a forest. Those limbs without enough light die off. The remaining limbs seeking light, (downhill side with their green weight), could also pull the tree that way. It may not be just the plant seeking light but also limb weight causing some of the same.
???
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I'll look trees over for awhile with this stuff in mind. For instance, I was thinking that the hemlock we have with a nodding leader might be a good tree to study for lean. Who knows?
Since there appears to be no lean tendency input on AS for now, I'll wait a few months and see if I can draw out some with "leaner" threads then.
"I didn't pursue tree biology because I can make a better living cutting the tree down rather then being a consulting arborist. I do what I do best,at 50 yrs I am now not going to go to university and get a degree."
------------
I'm not in line for a degree at age 56 either.
This is pretty interesting and understanding the why could have some benefits.
I wish I had heard of this before and could have thought it through as I was hearing lean tendency discussions in various places traveling as a fire fighter.
It certainly makes sense that flat ground would show sunlight related tendency's best and then an understanding of topography setting leans could follow.
*************
It seems that the downhill lean tendency often observed in the NW may be nothing more than seeking available light. Instead of the gravity based thought I've simply had and went blindly on with.
Looking at a hillside with a uniform full forest canopy, each trees best access to light is going to be downhill. At least on W - S - E slopes.
Perhaps it is available light and gravity together. Trees are self pruning as they grow up in a forest. Those limbs without enough light die off. The remaining limbs seeking light, (downhill side with their green weight), could also pull the tree that way. It may not be just the plant seeking light but also limb weight causing some of the same.
???
--------------
I'll look trees over for awhile with this stuff in mind. For instance, I was thinking that the hemlock we have with a nodding leader might be a good tree to study for lean. Who knows?
Since there appears to be no lean tendency input on AS for now, I'll wait a few months and see if I can draw out some with "leaner" threads then.
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HolmenTree
ArboristSite Guru
Back to that carpenter square gunsighting. Lets put one of those day pointer green lasers[Sherrils or Baileys] in the middle of the long straight edge of the square,fixed 90 degrees of course. Now you can aim from the middle of your notch and not have to split the difference of the 2 sides of the tree.
Willard
Willard
Sprig
Addicted to ArboristSite
That'd work well I think, but then so does a piece of string
(a fine idea btw, not slaggin' ya at all mate!)
Serge
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
Either that or
Have accuracy contests where each cutter has to show where they will place the top of the tree.
Instead of just hitting a 40 or 60 or 80 or 100 foot out target for beverage bets.
Use the stick trick to locate where the top will smack down and the contest is decided by cumulative distance to that spot. Not a right or left but vector to where the very top hits.
Your buddy gets choice of tree/snag as you challenged them. (If they're new to this game they may go for the shorter tree instead of avoiding sweeps or crooks. Perhaps one could snooker them until their street smarts come around.)
(Dead and taller tree tops often break and bounce further - some tree reassembly may be required by third party).
********************
Of course with any bet between gentlemen there 'should' be complete disclosure prior to competition.
Failing to mention laser, square, clinometer, straight bar and wind gauge could be cause for black listing or payment in lite beer versus microbrew.
*******************
Who knows, even notching your falling axe handle precisely at 'eye distance' to make it that special stick always available could invite bitterness between friends.
Of course, any bank shots need to be called prior to back-cut.
Have accuracy contests where each cutter has to show where they will place the top of the tree.
Instead of just hitting a 40 or 60 or 80 or 100 foot out target for beverage bets.
Use the stick trick to locate where the top will smack down and the contest is decided by cumulative distance to that spot. Not a right or left but vector to where the very top hits.
Your buddy gets choice of tree/snag as you challenged them. (If they're new to this game they may go for the shorter tree instead of avoiding sweeps or crooks. Perhaps one could snooker them until their street smarts come around.)
(Dead and taller tree tops often break and bounce further - some tree reassembly may be required by third party).
********************
Of course with any bet between gentlemen there 'should' be complete disclosure prior to competition.
Failing to mention laser, square, clinometer, straight bar and wind gauge could be cause for black listing or payment in lite beer versus microbrew.
*******************
Who knows, even notching your falling axe handle precisely at 'eye distance' to make it that special stick always available could invite bitterness between friends.
Of course, any bank shots need to be called prior to back-cut.
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joesawer
Addicted to ArboristSite
They grow to the sun light. Imo gravity has virtually nothing to do with it. The tree spends its whole life growing against gravity.
Even when a tree is bent, broken or partially uprooted it will immediately began to grow towards the most light.
