A Felling Question

[Bwildered]

You get that off a cat poster? Ok so with your broom theory, the wood doesn't need to be strong it needs to bend and the fibers need to stretch. Red oak is very strong, but the fibers usually break easily. Basswood on the other hand is not very strong, but bends really well. Dead dry wood doesn't bend or stretch very well at all. Also there is no momentum to initiate movement in your broom scenario, no top weight. The entire experiment you describe would be like making a matchbox car jump off a ramp and prentending that it simulates a real life scenario. If you are too afraid to try it on a little tree say 10" dbh or so, then make a video of your broom handle experiment. It seems simple enough right?

No thats an original quote I made up that's based & tweeked a little from similar quotes that explain coping with life's little challenges that arise, you can use it anytime you like. With a small scale test, an accurate lean can be placed on the stem, the top can be loaded to any extent required, if a sapling is used then the timber is strong & flexible, I don't know where you get the idea that the fibres stretch anymore than a minute microscopic amount. I find it amazing that some can't visualise the proposed test then work out at that moment how it's not possible for the stem to fall 180' opposite to the gravitational lean with just a cutting method.
Designers & engineers use scale models everyday of boats, ships, cars, planes, building etc, to test how they respond to forces & reactions.
Thansk

 

[Gypo Logger]

Funny stuff here:
http://northernwoodlands.org/articles/article/felling_trees_against_the_lean

 

[Gypo Logger]

You fellas aren't very good fallers the way you're felling.
This guy has it down to a science and fine art. Lol

 

[2dogs]

You fellas aren't very good fallers the way you're felling.
This guy has it down to a science and fine art. Lol

The doofus is using a digger/tamper made for fence post work. It is not a pry bar, different steel, different temper. Not to mention how long should it take to get a little staub like that on the ground?

 

[Gypo Logger]

Ya, he sure was making a career out of it. Lol
I was wondering what kind of timber tool he was using.
He must have been very proud of himself though.
Crownless, that stub didnt warrant an undercut nor a wedge.

 

[Bwildered]

You fellas aren't very good fallers the way you're felling.
This guy has it down to a science and fine art. Lol

Now that was funny!
Thansk

 

[Gypo Logger]

Was it just me, or did anyone else notice he prayed before and after?
It looked like the biggest stick in the whole bush!
Was it a Beech, Birch or Bulgarian Bugwood?

Now that was funny!
Thansk

 

[Bwildered]

Was it just me, or did anyone else notice he prayed before and after?
It looked like the biggest stick in the whole bush!
Was it a Beech, Birch or Bulgarian Bugwood?

I think he was praying that he didn't have a heart attack from all the unessesary exertion. He thought it was a son of a beech.
Thansk

 

[Gypo Logger]

I bet his wife after seeing the manly vid thinks he's a pretty studly guy. Lol

 

[Gypo Logger]

Lumberjack dude cant be from Canada or Australia. It looks like a Pennsylvania thing to me. Lol

 

[windthrown]

I bet his wife after seeing the manly vid thinks he's a pretty studly guy. Lol

Looks like you and I are avatar Kesey cousins now...

 

[Gypo Logger]

There you are Stamper! Was wondering where you were. Always like your posts.
Never give an inch!
That doesnt sound right because she wanted 6", but I could only give her 2" three times. Lol

 

[Bwildered]

Lumberjack dude cant be from Canada or Australia. It looks like a Pennsylvania thing to me. Lol

Or Michigan, running 20:1, fouled the plug & had to finish it off by hand, then a weeks rest to collect whoopee for the heroics. I'm only basing that on personal experience!
Thansk

 

[Gypo Logger]

Yes Michagan for sure, but Mich may have a few more stems left than Maine has. New York and New Jersey have lots of wood from what I've seen and so does Pennsilvania.
Its growing faster than we can cut it down.
If you are a logger and you went to Maine you would sit on a stump and cry.

 

[rogue661]

I've not read all this but interesting the different techniques from around the world, definitely a regional thing local knowledge goes a long way.. What works in one type of timer won't necessarily work in all timber...I don't think there is a wrong or wright here just local on the ground knowledge in whatever timber that be from around the world..
I asked the old man what's the biggest quota hardwood log he has cut? said about 16 m3 but said he bucked bigger for whatever mills he cut for back in the day and something about nice 6ft+ hoop pine many moons ago(softwood)..the log in my avatar was about 13 m3 was a forest Redgum and goes about 1200 kg to the cubic meter.
Also asked about the techniques described (getting a tree to go over 180' to the lean with nothing but cutting) and how that would go in Aussie hardwood? (I'm not saying it does not work just how would it go in our hardwood k) well the blank look pretty much told me as in a look of WTF haha, but yeah his answer was sounds like a good way to die and no that wont work in our hardwood...Think I'll take his word for it I've seen what a 10+ m3 hardwood can do when they sit back on a bar ya lucky if you ever get that bar back in working condition that's for sure, it's unbolt the powerhead and let it go the way it wants to go....Cheers

 

[bitzer]

No thats an original quote I made up that's based & tweeked a little from similar quotes that explain coping with life's little challenges that arise, you can use it anytime you like. With a small scale test, an accurate lean can be placed on the stem, the top can be loaded to any extent required, if a sapling is used then the timber is strong & flexible, I don't know where you get the idea that the fibres stretch anymore than a minute microscopic amount. I find it amazing that some can't visualise the proposed test then work out at that moment how it's not possible for the stem to fall 180' opposite to the gravitational lean with just a cutting method.
Designers & engineers use scale models everyday of boats, ships, cars, planes, building etc, to test how they respond to forces & reactions.
Thansk

Oh I can visualize it alright. Apparently you've never seen a tree that was standing straight seconds before bent tight to the ground. They are called springpoles. I've seen em bent in multiple 'S' shapes. Trees up to 12-14" dbh. Fibers don't bend huh? That last set of pics I put up, how do you explain that? The tree had the backcut entirely closed. Which was was it leaning? Which way did it go out? A broom handle is not an accurate test. Its easier to destroy than create isn't it? I've given two real world examples with photographic evidence and you've provided only what the limits of your imagination can conjur.

 

[Moparmyway]

20 tons is not 20oz.
It could never be a realistic test

It actually is proportional, the only difference is with a small scale you can't get the thin sapwood layer around the truewood & sapwood is the strongest part of the tree in HWDs, I don't know about SWDs, if you use a sapling it's all sapwood & if you use a broomstick it's all heartwood & seasoned which is stronger than unseasoned heartwood.
The centre of gravity never changes with the lean & the direction it goes when the fibres are cut a true representation of the physics involved. That's why it's such a good cheap safe tool to experiment with, used in engineering & design world wide in this day & age.
Thansk

And here is where I can help you get back on the road.
The 20 tons is weight (leaning) on the soft Dutchman and its hinge ................... your rake - just above the proposed cut - has how much weight ?

Its impossible to simulate the weight thats in the lean with the rake experiment.
You need a good leaner on a day without wind........ then try it on something at least 15" DBH in the spring. Just about all species of trees wood fibers are wet and stretchy then, and cutting them in their pre-spring and spring blossoming times will give you the best chance of pulling it off

 

[Bwildered]

I've not read all this but interesting the different techniques from around the world, definitely a regional thing local knowledge goes a long way.. What works in one type of timer won't necessarily work in all timber...I don't think there is a wrong or wright here just local on the ground knowledge in whatever timber that be from around the world..
I asked the old man what's the biggest quota hardwood log he has cut? said about 16 m3 but said he bucked bigger for whatever mills he cut for back in the day and something about nice 6ft+ hoop pine many moons ago(softwood)..the log in my avatar was about 13 m3 was a forest Redgum and goes about 1200 kg to the cubic meter.
Also asked about the techniques described (getting a tree to go over 180' to the lean with nothing but cutting) and how that would go in Aussie hardwood? (I'm not saying it does not work just how would it go in our hardwood k) well the blank look pretty much told me as in a look of WTF haha, but yeah his answer was sounds like a good way to die and no that wont work in our hardwood...Think I'll take his word for it I've seen what a 10+ m3 hardwood can do when they sit back on a bar ya lucky if you ever get that bar back in working condition that's for sure, it's unbolt the powerhead and let it go the way it wants to go....Cheers

I remember when I was 6 or 7 back in primary school, one of the boys in my classes dad owned R model mack log trucks, one day 3 of them lined up out side the front of the school, each one had a one log load from a single tree, he only owned 3 trucks so they had to go back & pick up the remainder for a couple more loads. The local mill had to resurrect and modify a mothballed frame saw from the junk heap to break it down.
Thansk

 

[Bwildered]

Oh I can visualize it alright. Apparently you've never seen a tree that was standing straight seconds before bent tight to the ground. They are called springpoles. I've seen em bent in multiple 'S' shapes. Trees up to 12-14" dbh. Fibers don't bend huh? That last set of pics I put up, how do you explain that? The tree had the backcut entirely closed. Which was was it leaning? Which way did it go out? A broom handle is not an accurate test. Its easier to destroy than create isn't it? I've given two real world examples with photographic evidence and you've provided only what the limits of your imagination can conjur.

Your tree sat down because the hinge was gone, it sat down & was perpendicular in balance from the tuft of hinge you left, to the other side of the stump, when you knawed away the stump from under the side of the butt you took the support from that side of the log which loaded the backside of the butt, which put a tipping force on the butt forcing the tree over. Yes I have those small undergrowth trees that bend like that, when they do the bark will peel off the compression side of them because the timber is being compressed that much, the bark on the other side is unbroken & attached, I never said fibres don't bend.
Thansk

 

[Bwildered]

And here is where I can help you get back on the road.
The 20 tons is weight (leaning) on the soft Dutchman and its hinge ................... your rake - just above the proposed cut - has how much weight ?

Its impossible to simulate the weight thats in the lean with the rake experiment.
You need a good leaner on a day without wind........ then try it on something at least 15" DBH in the spring. Just about all species of trees wood fibers are wet and stretchy then, and cutting them in their pre-spring and spring blossoming times will give you the best chance of pulling it off

The forces are directly proportional as long as the base cross sectional size, height, mass & lean are to scale. 1 kg exerting a force over 1 cm2 is the same as 10,000 kg exerting a force over 10,000 cm2.
Thansk