Advice on cutting straight on trunks of hardish wood

[MattG]

Hi people,

I do have some experience of cutting and saws and such. But I'm still learning and would appreciate some advice from more experienced folk.

I've been given some lengths of darn hard (18 - 25") cherry trunks and slowly processing them using mainly my 064. That saw definitely has the power for the work, but find it easy to smoke out and dull the chain if am not careful with the pressure I apply, and when I keep hitting hidden mud pockets (we have brushed, scraped and hosed them as much as possible). So yeah, I have been sharpening and raker checking a lot!

What I really wanted the advice on was, when I cut the cherry I find that often the saw drifts slightly (just a little though). And yeah you can tell that this strains the saw some. Whats the recommend way to get the straightest cut? (the trunks are raised a foot off ground + are level + I'm sawing downward + just stating the obvious).

Anyway, could I be pressing down to hard on the saw in the cut - does that make it veer off true? Or should I just try to guide it through almost under it's own weight?

Any tips + advice appreciated.

BTW - I'm using 20 and 25" RSC B+C

thanks Matt

 

[lone wolf]

Hi people,

I do have some experience of cutting and saws and such. But I'm still learning and would appreciate some advice from more experienced folk.

I've been given some lengths of darn hard (18 - 25") cherry trunks and slowly processing them using mainly my 064. That saw definitely has the power for the work, but find it easy to smoke out and dull the chain if am not careful with the pressure I apply, and when I keep hitting hidden mud pockets (we have brushed, scraped and hosed them as much as possible). So yeah, I have been sharpening and raker checking a lot!

What I really wanted the advice on was, when I cut the cherry I find that often the saw drifts slightly (just a little though). And yeah you can tell that this strains the saw some. Whats the recommend way to get the straightest cut? (the trunks are raised a foot off ground + are level + I'm sawing downward + just stating the obvious).

Anyway, could I be pressing down to hard on the saw in the cut - does that make it veer off true? Or should I just try to guide it through almost under it's own weight?

Any tips + advice appreciated.

BTW - I'm using 20 and 25" RSC B+C

thanks Matt

Your bar or is worn or the chain is not sharpened properly if it pulls . Cherry aint so hard to cut. Take the bar off and look closely to see if bent, worn or there are ridges on the outside of the rail. Try a new chain and see what happens?

 

[MattG]

Your bar or is worn or the chain is not sharpened properly if it pulls . Cherry aint so hard to cut. Take the bar off and look closely to see if bent, worn or there are ridges on the outside of the rail. Try a new chain and see what happens?

Thanks Lone Wolf,

The 20" chain's only half way worn - so I'm trying just keep going with, re-sharpening it every now and again. I'll check the bar out, but I reckon it's good (pretty new).

My 25" B+C hasn't been used yet - still new. I'm gonna try that in a week or so on the cherry + let u know.

What about cutting advice though people?

Should I just guide the saw with it's own weight and if the B+C are straight and sharp, then will the cut be straight too?

(Might add that I never had any trouble putting this saw through slightly smaller oak and ash, the saw absolutely murdered that stuff.)

(check out this in softer wood
)

But this is the stuff (cherry) that my chain hates

 

[Franny K]

For the cutting straight aspect I often rotate the saw at the beginning with the power head kind of pointing straight down at the end of this. Then keep the bar tip in the slot and eye straight as the cut is completed with the bar basically horizontal. You could try that tactic. A wider bar also seems to help go straighter. A fresh groove and sliding surface has already been mentioned. Might try a total rotate and total bar horizontal and compare results. Might think about the weight of the power head being off line. I do not see it (too much) in the pictures but some cherry seems to have grain that twists.

For the dirt aspect and looking at the pictures the plan would be to cut with the chain and chips coming out without pulling the bark and bark debris being pulled through the cut. This usually involves switching sides. I usually can cut through the bark on top pulling the chips sideways and then keep the nose in the cleaner center.

 

[Homeowner]

I usually let chain bite trough the wood with it's own weight, if it is not, I know it is time to give chain some love and together time.

I cut mostly nordic pine and birch, quite soft stuff I guess.

How are your cutters, is there difference in their length? I know that sometimes I manage to sharpen chain so that it is sharp, but other side cutters are different in length, that did happen mostly when I follow instruction "same number of strokes on both sides" which is incorrect, same amount of material removed from the cutters so that stay at same length is working so much better.

Got bit tired of hand filing, so bought inexpensive sharpening machine, that seems to sharpen the chain with less material removal so my chains might last longer now. I know, I'm quite bad with a file.

Only times saw pulling to side has been when I have had either dull chain or difference in length of cutters, but sometimes I manage to start the cut so that saw is not diagonal to wood and I end up with cut that is not straight, but that starts wrong, it is not pulling wrong after cutting 1/3 to 1/2 way of log which is where poor condition chain will start to pull.

If start of cut is starting wrong, then position left hand more right or left so that cut starts straight, with experimenting you quickly see which direction makes it better and which makes it worse, another thing is start cut slow without rushing it, but I believe you know most of this already.

Those are only things I have found to be affecting my cuts, but I have only around 70 saw hours on my belt from last few years, so that is not a lot, guys with more experience might have found out other things causing the issue.

 

[MattG]

For the cutting straight aspect I often rotate the saw at the beginning with the power head kind of pointing straight down at the end of this. Then keep the bar tip in the slot and eye straight as the cut is completed with the bar basically horizontal. You could try that tactic. A wider bar also seems to help go straighter. A fresh groove and sliding surface has already been mentioned. Might try a total rotate and total bar horizontal and compare results. Might think about the weight of the power head being off line. I do not see it (too much) in the pictures but some cherry seems to have grain that twists.

For the dirt aspect and looking at the pictures the plan would be to cut with the chain and chips coming out without pulling the bark and bark debris being pulled through the cut. This usually involves switching sides. I usually can cut through the bark on top pulling the chips sideways and then keep the nose in the cleaner center.

Thanks Franny,

Yes, I've seen guys on youtube displaying that style, I believe you describe, where the cut is started with the bar kind of angled pointing down, and the power head up, then it gets more horizontal as you complete the cut. I'll work on that. And yeah, I'll try to figure where the weight of the head is at more next time.

My wife took the pics a coupla weeks back, and I've now done 2 of the trunks and have done most of back end of the most horrid looking one. Lots of sharpening, and a raker adjust in between!

At least I'm in slightly cleaner wood now.

I usually let chain bite trough the wood with it's own weight, if it is not, I know it is time to give chain some love and together time.

I cut mostly nordic pine and birch, quite soft stuff I guess.

How are your cutters, is there difference in their length? I know that sometimes I manage to sharpen chain so that it is sharp, but other side cutters are different in length, that did happen mostly when I follow instruction "same number of strokes on both sides" which is incorrect, same amount of material removed from the cutters so that stay at same length is working so much better.

Got bit tired of hand filing, so bought inexpensive sharpening machine, that seems to sharpen the chain with less material removal so my chains might last longer now. I know, I'm quite bad with a file.

Only times saw pulling to side has been when I have had either dull chain or difference in length of cutters, but sometimes I manage to start the cut so that saw is not diagonal to wood and I end up with cut that is not straight, but that starts wrong, it is not pulling wrong after cutting 1/3 to 1/2 way of log which is where poor condition chain will start to pull.

If start of cut is starting wrong, then position left hand more right or left so that cut starts straight, with experimenting you quickly see which direction makes it better and which makes it worse, another thing is start cut slow without rushing it, but I believe you know most of this already.

Those are only things I have found to be affecting my cuts, but I have only around 70 saw hours on my belt from last few years, so that is not a lot, guys with more experience might have found out other things causing the issue.

Thanks Homeowner,

Your tip about letting the chain go through more by it's weight is good, and yeah, I probably need to be more patient!

Thanks also for your tip about the difference in cutter length, I suppose that could be factor. Where sharpening is concerned I'm reasonably good at getting a nice clean sharp edge using a guide-mounted file, but my 20" chain has had such a battering by now, I wouldn't be at all surprised if it's getting uneven.

Like I said earlier soon I'll check out the new 25" chain and armed with your advice, perhaps it will be easier

Thanks again,
Matt

 

[LoveStihlQuality]

Lone Wolf recommended a new chain. That would eliminate chain as issue and you can always use another chain. Chances are that your cutters are shorter on one side. Sharp chain can still do this. Use a micrometer (cheap at Harbour Freight ) or use a small adjustable wrench. Getting in dirty muddy wood can easily cause this. May need to use grinder to even out.

LoveStihlQuality

 

[Homeowner]

Just came to my mind, one small stone inside the wood ruins a chain so that it pulls to side, some wood is such that when it grows it kind of collects all kind of mineral into it, we have one breed of wood here that does that and for that and for smaller stuff collected from ground, I have Multicut chains in garage which are supposed to be more resilient towards minerals (sand and dirt mostly).

I have no idea if Cherry is such wood though, I have never even seen Cherry as a tree form, only edible stuff and finished products made from Cherry wood, so can't really say what kind of wood that is in tree form.

 

[Andyshine77]

Lone Wolf recommended a new chain. That would eliminate chain as issue and you can always use another chain. Chances are that your cutters are shorter on one side. Sharp chain can still do this. Use a micrometer (cheap at Harbour Freight ) or use a small adjustable wrench. Getting in dirty muddy wood can easily cause this. May need to use grinder to even out.

LoveStihlQuality

The depth gauges are more important than individual tooth length. As long as the gauges are set properly, tooth length won't have much if any effect on how the chain cuts. Tooth length causing these issues is a total myth.

If the chain is setup proper and it has the correct gauge drive links, the bar is the culprit.

 

[HuskStihl]

A properly sharpened and set up chain should "self-feed". With a 064, you should have to actually hold the saw back to keep the dawgs off the wood. If you need any significant top pressure, the chain could be better.
I dawg'd in a bit at the start of this, but it's mostly self-feeding

As LW said, if'n it's pulling (usually right) it's uneven rakers, different top plate angles on the cutters, slop in the groove, or burred/uneven rails.
All the best

 

[Homeowner]

The depth gauges are more important than individual tooth length. As long as the gauges are set properly, tooth length won't have much if any effect on how the chain cuts. Tooth length causing these issues is a total myth.

If the chain is setup proper and it has the correct gauge drive links, the bar is the culprit.

I believe that if depth gauges are not filed down, then difference in cutter length starts to cause the pull, I know I'm neglecting depth gauges too often and sometimes I just take them out completely as well as every 3rd cutter, which makes great chain for some purposes, but not for straight cutting that is for sure!

 

[wombler]

Tooth length causing these issues is a total myth.

That's contrary to my experience. My first adventure sharpening a chain on a (cheap) grinder, there was enough slack in the chain guide that I consistently ground all of the cutters on one side shorter than on the other side. I could just about cut circles it curved so much. None of the rakers had ever been touched. Putting on a fresh chain completely solved the problem, so it definitely wasn't the bar. Re-grinding the wonky chain so the cutters were equal on both sides also solved it.

 

[MattG]

Lone Wolf recommended a new chain. That would eliminate chain as issue and you can always use another chain. Chances are that your cutters are shorter on one side. Sharp chain can still do this.
LoveStihlQuality

Thanks, I'm sure my cutters are uneven. The chains pretty well beat up. Has lots of metal left, but it's taken a battering.

Just came to my mind, one small stone inside the wood ruins a chain so that it pulls to side, some wood is such that when it grows it kind of collects all kind of mineral into it

Yes, that has happened once or twice for me, processing that cherry. We found lots of tiny stones and even little bits of old broken glass amongst the roots when we cleaned the trunks up. Probably the odd one was still hidden. The trees probably grew on an area that had rubble dumped there in the past. I did hit a tiny one I believe - and when I next inspected the chain it looked like it had suffered a bit on one side (the points of the teeth looked more rounded that side).

A properly sharpened and set up chain should "self-feed". With a 064, you should have to actually hold the saw back to keep the dawgs off the wood. If you need any significant top pressure, the chain could be better.
I dawg'd in a bit at the start of this, but it's mostly self-feeding
As LW said, if'n it's pulling (usually right) it's uneven rakers, different top plate angles on the cutters, slop in the groove, or burred/uneven rails.
All the best

Thanks for posting that link HS. And I know what you mean about holding back the dawgs - when the chain was younger - when I was cutting oak/ash she'd just pull herself right in like a runaway train. 10-4 about the top pressure remark.

Thanks again people. My conclusion is that my cutting technique aint too bad with a good chain but all the micro stones and mud and such have messed my chain so bad, that even freshly sharpened it still aint ideal. The bar isn't used enough to get burred or bent too much I don't reckon, so it must be the chain. That cherry is lovely and heavy, so at least we'll be nice and warm when it gets burnt!

If I remember I'll post back and tell you all how I get on with the new 25" chain.

Matt

 

[Homeowner]

That's contrary to my experience. My first adventure sharpening a chain on a (cheap) grinder, there was enough slack in the chain guide that I consistently ground all of the cutters on one side shorter than on the other side. I could just about cut circles it curved so much. None of the rakers had ever been touched. Putting on a fresh chain completely solved the problem, so it definitely wasn't the bar. Re-grinding the wonky chain so the cutters were equal on both sides also solved it.

When you don't touch rakers and have other side's cutters shorter than other, then you have one side with not much bite at all and other side that has lot of bite. thus it is true that if rakers are not set correctly per cutter, that will cause the issue but rakers getting out of proper set is caused by unevenly filed or worn cutters.

I guess it is more or less semantics as when chain is properly set, each cutter is in correct angle and each raker is set amount lower for it's cutter, but you can test this claim with worn chain, take all rakers off with angle grinder and chain will not pull to side so easily, but of course enough big difference is causing issues.

So it is true that rakers/depth gauges don't pull to side, while it is true also that cutters are not typically causing this pulling, but issue can be fixed by filing down each raker to match each cutter, which is more economical approach than what I have been doing before learning from here, I filed all cutters to shortest cutter length which shortened life of chain a lot!

I believe that was also his point, in case cutters are uneven length, don't file all the longer cutters, file rakers/depth gauges to proper height and your chain will last longer or at least that is what I think I have learned from this thread.

 

[nk14zp]

You shouldn't have to force the saw if the chain is sharp.

 

[HarleyT]

and when I keep hitting hidden mud pockets

BTW - I'm using 20 and 25" RSC B+C

thanks Matt

Mud{dirt} is just tiny rocks.........

Show us pics of those poor cutters......

You should try some Stihl RM

 

[lone wolf]

Thanks, I'm sure my cutters are uneven. The chains pretty well beat up. Has lots of metal left, but it's taken a battering.


Yes, that has happened once or twice for me, processing that cherry. We found lots of tiny stones and even little bits of old broken glass amongst the roots when we cleaned the trunks up. Probably the odd one was still hidden. The trees probably grew on an area that had rubble dumped there in the past. I did hit a tiny one I believe - and when I next inspected the chain it looked like it had suffered a bit on one side (the points of the teeth looked more rounded that side).


Thanks for posting that link HS. And I know what you mean about holding back the dawgs - when the chain was younger - when I was cutting oak/ash she'd just pull herself right in like a runaway train. 10-4 about the top pressure remark.

Thanks again people. My conclusion is that my cutting technique aint too bad with a good chain but all the micro stones and mud and such have messed my chain so bad, that even freshly sharpened it still aint ideal. The bar isn't used enough to get burred or bent too much I don't reckon, so it must be the chain. That cherry is lovely and heavy, so at least we'll be nice and warm when it gets burnt!

If I remember I'll post back and tell you all how I get on with the new 25" chain.

Matt

Nailed it!

 

[MattG]

Mud{dirt} is just tiny rocks.........

Show us pics of those poor cutters......

You should try some Stihl RM

Hey there HarleyT,

I'll see if I can take a couple of piccies maybe tomorrow. It's 4pm in UK now, the sun actually came out, me and wife are knackered (not from having too fun together though, if you know what I mean )

I even got persuaded by the kids to climb the willow tree and put a rope swing up! Definitely chilling out now....

 

[MattG]

Mud{dirt} is just tiny rocks.........

Show us pics of those poor cutters......

You should try some Stihl RM

Hi again,

We got some pics. I was difficult to get the close up detail but here goes:

[photo=large]3901[/photo]
[photo=large]3902[/photo]

As you can see the teeth on lower row look like they hit something hard since their top plates have lost their "dead straight" angle. It's not quite as bad as the camera would suggest, since in dark region there's still some metal, but the edge has lost it's definition. Even the top plate on the top row teeth aint great - you can probably see that the tips are rounded very slightly. (The side plates on both rows seem ok and you can get a nice sharp edge back on them).

I'm an only occasion CAD guy - just for dosmetic firewood use I'd like to keep with this chain. (Already have new 25" B+C, + MS341 w/18"). So I'd like to know if I can restore this chain, for example, could I dress the top edge with a small flat file, resharpen with the round file, and adjust each raker?

(BTW I'd rather spend some time rather than money, purely for my own pride/learning if possible. When I first got CAD I used to keep buying new chains, rather than try and fix what I've got.)

Any advice?

 

[Homeowner]

What I have done to such chain is just keep filing until worse teeth is straight and sharp again, then I have filed others to match.

Of course now I would try to file cutters enough so they are straight and then set rakers to match each cutter, might get more life out of the chain that way.

I would not use flat file on cutters, just use round file enough many times that they become straight, keep angle of file same trough whole push.

What horrible thing has happened to that bar? It looks to have jagged edge.