All things considered, I need advise!

[nstueve]

Ok, so the wife and I got our first acreage and wood from local farms and in town will supply plenty enough fuel for us. The problem... Well...

We have 2 fireplace stacks on either side of the house, both were blocked off by previous owner so that their home insurance was cheaper ($20-$30 more/month for indoor wood fire place/burner) and they never used them. I don't know if either is functional at all yet. More information: The house is 1979 (2300sqft without basement or garage) with vaulted ceilings everywhere, and new windows and siding and insulation, the house is currently run on propane (dryer, furnace, water heater, and kitchen stove). I have a Lenox LP furnace that was installed in 1998. I like to keep the house warm (75*-77*) during the winter. The last house we were in had a indoor wood stove with CAT, and even with good dry oak I would be feeding it 3-6 times a day with thermostat at 68*-70*! The basement has no exterior entrance or windows, the only entrance is a stair well that is accessed at the rear of the house through the kitchen.

I love to cut wood and keep the house utility bill down so I am considering my options for heating the house. The easy option is 2 gas/wood fire places hooked up to the existing chimneys for spare heat. The next is a wood burner in the basement which I would have to run a stack to and I'd have to carry wood inside and through the house (wife says no, and I tend to agree). Which leaves us with option "C." An outdoor wood burner/boiler. I like this option b/c it keeps the mess outside, provides more efficient heat, needs less refeuling, provides more BTU's. So here is the couple questions...

What option is best option to keep the LP bill low and come out ahead in the long run? If the answer is outdoor burner/boiler; which one is economical, easy to install, and works with the current LP furnace?

Just want to steering on which way to go and some fresh opinions on what to do!

 

[Fifelaker]

Option 3: Outdoor wood boiler. You will recoup your $$$ in a few years. Heat your house and water. All the mess is outside. Set your thermostat and enjoy. Insurance is cheaper. What's not to like.

 

[blades]

Maybe if you are considering an outside burner, cost wise, you might want to look at the Kuma Units. Likely run you 1/2 or less than a outside install. Most stoves with a possible exception of the BK King are going to need refueling. Stoves are area heaters and with a lot of vaulted ceilings you are going to need to push most stoves some and ceiling fans to push heat back down. if one stove on either end of home twice as much fuel, course that is dependent on your preferences. I find my stove's heat cycle to be warmer than my conventional he furnace ( course I just love those under a c note utility bills in mid Jan.)

 

[Speed]

My vote goes to the OWB. Growing up we heated with wood, a stove in the kitchen. I now have an OWB, so have been around both. 1.OWB provides even heat through duct work. Stove, one room is superheated the rest are various stages of cooler, depending on distance from stove. You could avoid this with furnace in basement. So somewhat equal there. 2.OWB, fill twice a day, versus several. OWB wins. 3.OWB all the wood mess is outside, along with the fact you don't have added labor of getting wood inside. You also do not have ash/smoke/dust on everything. OWB wins. 4.OWB can heat house, garage/barn/outbuilding of your choice here, plus hot water with one fire. OWB wins. 5.OWB can't be used as a cooktop in a power outage, OWB loses. But you're going to have the generator running anyways, so who cares? 6.OWB is going to use more wood than an indoor furnace or stove. OWB loses. But, inefficiency is counteracted by all of the above pros. It comes down to how you feel about cutting larger volume of wood. 7. Insurance companies don't have problems with an OWB, like they do with a fire inside house. OWB wins. 8. OWB all but eliminates chimney fires. OWB wins.

6 out of 8 pros on OWB right off the top of my head. Now, who is going to be expected to tend furnace in house? If it goes out overnight or while you are at work, how adept are wife/kids at relighting? I wouldn't feel comfortable with wife or kids running a fire here. But yet, they are all capable of throwing some wood in the OWB to keep it going if I happen to be away, due to it isn't temperamental. No draft settings. Automatic.

Installation is fairly straight forward if you are reasonably mechanically inclined, no rocket science or special skills needed. Heat exchanger is placed in duct work just above furnace. It only requires about 4-5" of duct. I've seen systems where there is no room there due to AC coil, where they installed exchanger in front of furnace in cold air return so it gets heated before furnace, vs. after.

View attachment 310826View attachment 310827

And don't worry about getting cold filling an OWB, as soon as you open the door, there's all the heat you could want coming out of that door! You will get wet if its raining though. I guess none of that bothers me, since I'm always outside anyways.

Hopefully, at least one thing I said helps you a little, one way or the other, in your decision process.

 

[CentaurG2]

Get a pellet stove and install in your existing chimney. Cut,split stack as much wood as you want and then sell it. Use your proceeds from wood sales to purchase your pellets. Buy in bulk and keep em in your basement. You might also want to try and keep your thermostat a bit lower. I live at 55-60F in the winter. You get used to it very quickly.

 

[slowp]

Speed!

I'll try to keep calm, but what is this crap about women and kids not being able to light a stove? Have you even tried to show how? Have you helped them do it? It isn't rocket science.

I vote for wood stoves. My reasoning? If the power goes out, I've got heat in the winter. I don't have to start up a generator--which (sarcasm) being a woman, I obviously would not be able to do.....:msp_sneaky: and a wood stove is easy to light and keep going. Or let go out and start up. It's called using newspaper and kindling and an igniting device. How complex could that be???

My mom grew up with no power and even though she was a woman, she showed us how to split kindling and get fires going, without throwing gas, or oil, or tires on.

If your kids and wife can't do it, time to kick them in the behind. Or have a lower temp house. And while your at it, kick yourself in the behind for having low expectations of others.

End of rant.

 

[Dogsout]

Um................someone piss in your Corn Flakes this morning Slowp?

 

[Homelite410]

Speed!

I'll try to keep calm, but what is this crap about women and kids not being able to light a stove? Have you even tried to show how? Have you helped them do it? It isn't rocket science.

I vote for wood stoves. My reasoning? If the power goes out, I've got heat in the winter. I don't have to start up a generator--which (sarcasm) being a woman, I obviously would not be able to do.....:msp_sneaky: and a wood stove is easy to light and keep going. Or let go out and start up. It's called using newspaper and kindling and an igniting device. How complex could that be???

My mom grew up with no power and even though she was a woman, she showed us how to split kindling and get fires going, without throwing gas, or oil, or tires on.

If your kids and wife can't do it, time to kick them in the behind. Or have a lower temp house. And while your at it, kick yourself in the behind for having low expectations of others.

End of rant.

That is outstanding!! My wife homeschools has daycare and manages to throw wood in the Clayton in the basement. She came from the city and that first winter was cool some days and 83 others.

 

[jrider]

OWB and don't look back. I wrestled with these similar thoughts and finally went with a gasification unit from Portage and Main. Going on year 3 and couldn't be happier. If we have a cold winter, it will have paid for itself by the time spring comes around.

 

[Speed]

Speed!

I'll try to keep calm, but what is this crap about women and kids not being able to light a stove? Have you even tried to show how? Have you helped them do it? It isn't rocket science.

I vote for wood stoves. My reasoning? If the power goes out, I've got heat in the winter. I don't have to start up a generator--which (sarcasm) being a woman, I obviously would not be able to do.....:msp_sneaky: and a wood stove is easy to light and keep going. Or let go out and start up. It's called using newspaper and kindling and an igniting device. How complex could that be???

My mom grew up with no power and even though she was a woman, she showed us how to split kindling and get fires going, without throwing gas, or oil, or tires on.

If your kids and wife can't do it, time to kick them in the behind. Or have a lower temp house. And while your at it, kick yourself in the behind for having low expectations of others.

End of rant.

EEEAAASSSYYYYY now. You took this all wrong. I asked if he felt his wife and kids could do it. I never said they couldn't. I never said a woman couldn't, my mom could run the %%%% out of her stove. She could maintain a steady temp in that kitchen and living room like nobody's business. That don't mean my wife can though. She couldn't run the corn stove to save her %%%. And that was pretty simple. And yes, she's smart, she's an RN. But book smarts only gets you so far. She is not good with anything mechanical. And that is fine, we all have things we are good at. There is NO way I could do her job. As far as kids, yes mine are at the age they could do it. But I don't have a stove, so what is the point of finding someone with a stove so I can teach them?!? I don't even know if OP has kids let alone are they 5 or 18. I sure wouldn't expect a 5 yr old to run a fire(although I know a few that could). I was merely pointing towards something to consider. Please don't take what I said the wrong way. I'm not a fast typer, then throw in the fact I am posting on a phone, I am not going to spell everything out. Heck, this took me over ten minutes to type, defending myself on something I never meant to be taken wrong.

As for the pellet burner aspect, I had a corn stove(same principle) NEVER again. It did alright. But not when it got COLD. I'm digging being able to keep the house at 70-75° versus 55 in the morning because it wouldn't keep up with a cold night. It was cheap to run since I grew my own corn, but I'd rather be warm. I know someone who just put in a pellet burner last fall, all they did was complain all winter about the heated room was warm and the rest of the house was cold.

 

[Homelite410]

I would go owb if i could afford it.

 

[HuskStihl]

My wife is smarter than me, better educated, and (embarrassingly for me) probably physically stronger. She may someday kill me, but it won't be by lighting me on fire.

 

[Speed]

Slowp, one more thing, with the kids, its not that I don't think they could get it relit or anything, what would bother me with them with a stove, since they haven't grown up around one. OK they light it, throw some wood in with dampers open to get it rolling, and with a typical kids attention span, get on the phone, or find a show on TV. They forget about it and now we've got a pretty good fireball going, runaway fire, things start to get a little warm now, etc. etc. I'm sure they are capable, but the OWB takes out all the what ifs. That's what was going through my mind when I typed my original post.

 

[sw18x]

OWB. When I bought our house 3 years ago I inherited an older model with bad installation, have been fighting with the thing ever since and despite all the work, I still see the advantage. Especially since you'll be buying new, from what I hear there are some very efficient units out there. With a newer unit, I'd imagine the extra wood you'll need will be offset in terms of labor by the fact that with the OWB, you don't have to process the wood down to small pieces. It's especially nice when you're scrounging wood, that's the one thing I love most about OWB's, if it fits through the door and you can throw it in, it's fuel. Plus they're cool, man, there's nothing like playing with fire in an oven big enough you can crawl in.

Sounds like you've got forced air but if you need to bring the water to the house for a heat exchanger for any reason, don't go cheap on the install, use Logstor Pex-Flex. I just picked up 90 feet of it yesterday and it's an impressive product.

Here's a good article someone passed along to me, some of it might not apply to your situation but it's interesting none the less: http://www.caleffi.us/en_US/caleffi/Details/Magazines/pdf/idronics_10_us.pdf

 

[iowa]

I didn't go with OWB. I didn't have the 10-12,000 to plunk down on a decent unit. I went with a Kuuma Vaporfire 100. Best thing I've ever done for heating. Love it. Uses less wood, no creosote, and our house is so warm in the winter!

Another problem I have is OWB eat wood like none other!!! Not to mention, who in their right mind wants to feed that thing in rain, wind, snow, sleet, and such. YUCK... I walk down to my basement in shorts at 10pm and throw a few pieces in. Tell her good night and do it again at 6am..

 

[Cheesecutter]

Ok, so the wife and I got our first acreage and wood from local farms and in town will supply plenty enough fuel for us. The problem... Well...
So here is the couple questions...

What option is best option to keep the LP bill low and come out ahead in the long run? If the answer is outdoor burner/boiler; which one is economical, easy to install, and works with the current LP furnace?
Just want to steering on which way to go and some fresh opinions on what to do!

To determine your best option you need to know how much it actually costs you to heat your home with propane, then you can figure payback time on a stove or OWB. My farmhouse and my MILs each cost $3000/year for fuel oil so my payback on $9000 was 1 1/2 years. My neighbor's heat bill is $6-700/year, he doesn't want fire inside the house so a stove/owb isn't feasible for him even though he lives in the woods. Any OWB will work with your current furnace as they all work on the same principal of transferring heat with water.
There are some very valid ideas and points above. One other option might be to dig and install an outside entry to your basement. Expensive, kind of, but cheaper than an OWB and they are nice when you need access to the basement for other things as well.
I personally went the OWB route because I heat 2 houses.(1100 and 3500 sq.ft) I burn right around 13 cords per year. I tried a stove at first, not an ideal set-up in my homes layout. So I installed a wood furnace in the basement, better heat distribution by far, but still had to deal with dirt, bugs, smoke, extra wood handling, and 6-8 hour burn times. It was when we discovered how close we came to burning the house down due of a faulty triple insulated Tee that I bought the OWB. Holy crap, I could kick myself for not doing it sooner.

How efficient an OWB is depends on the operator and whether they season the wood traditionally, just chunk and pile it, or even burn green wood and garbage. Yup, I know all three kinds. I honestly don't think "efficiency" as most people think about applies as much to OWBs because usually if you get one you have a source of wood, don't mind cutting and being outdoors, and the pros far outweigh the cons.
If I had to buy cut/split firewood then YES it might concern me more. I cut my own wood so big deal if I burn an extra cord or 2, as long as I'm warm, it's still less splitting and handling. As far as lighting, mine never goes out from Sept-May and if it did anyone that can light a candle could relight it. Sure, I have a generator, but it's as much for water, lights, and refrigeration as it is for heat.

 

[Fifelaker]

My central boiler 4036 goes through about 10 cord a year. My old indoor stoves went through 7-8 cord. The even heat, all the mess outside makes it worth the2-3 extra cords.

 

[nstueve]

Thanks all, where to start... hmmm...

My vote goes to the OWB. Growing up we heated with wood, a stove in the kitchen. I now have an OWB, so have been around both. 1.OWB provides even heat through duct work. Stove, one room is superheated the rest are various stages of cooler, depending on distance from stove. You could avoid this with furnace in basement. So somewhat equal there. 2.OWB, fill twice a day, versus several. OWB wins. 3.OWB all the wood mess is outside, along with the fact you don't have added labor of getting wood inside. You also do not have ash/smoke/dust on everything. OWB wins. 4.OWB can heat house, garage/barn/outbuilding of your choice here, plus hot water with one fire. OWB wins. 5.OWB can't be used as a cooktop in a power outage, OWB loses. But you're going to have the generator running anyways, so who cares? 6.OWB is going to use more wood than an indoor furnace or stove. OWB loses. But, inefficiency is counteracted by all of the above pros. It comes down to how you feel about cutting larger volume of wood. 7. Insurance companies don't have problems with an OWB, like they do with a fire inside house. OWB wins. 8. OWB all but eliminates chimney fires. OWB wins.

6 out of 8 pros on OWB right off the top of my head. Now, who is going to be expected to tend furnace in house? If it goes out overnight or while you are at work, how adept are wife/kids at relighting? I wouldn't feel comfortable with wife or kids running a fire here. But yet, they are all capable of throwing some wood in the OWB to keep it going if I happen to be away, due to it isn't temperamental. No draft settings. Automatic.

Installation is fairly straight forward if you are reasonably mechanically inclined, no rocket science or special skills needed. Heat exchanger is placed in duct work just above furnace. It only requires about 4-5" of duct. I've seen systems where there is no room there due to AC coil, where they installed exchanger in front of furnace in cold air return so it gets heated before furnace, vs. after.

View attachment 310826View attachment 310827

And don't worry about getting cold filling an OWB, as soon as you open the door, there's all the heat you could want coming out of that door! You will get wet if its raining though. I guess none of that bothers me, since I'm always outside anyways.

Hopefully, at least one thing I said helps you a little, one way or the other, in your decision process.

I'm pretty sure we wanted an outdoor boiler, a fire inside is nice once an a while just to hear the crackle and all but the mess and the amount of work to haul in wood would be terrible! So the question becomes OWB or OWG (gasifier or not...).

Get a pellet stove and install in your existing chimney. Cut,split stack as much wood as you want and then sell it. Use your proceeds from wood sales to purchase your pellets. Buy in bulk and keep em in your basement. You might also want to try and keep your thermostat a bit lower. I live at 55-60F in the winter. You get used to it very quickly.

My brother has a pellet stove and it's nice and easy to run but buying pellet instead of using all my chainsaws and wood splitter that I already own isn't what I want to do...

OWB and don't look back. I wrestled with these similar thoughts and finally went with a gasification unit from Portage and Main. Going on year 3 and couldn't be happier. If we have a cold winter, it will have paid for itself by the time spring comes around.

Yep this is the question. Traditional boiler or gasifier.

EEEAAASSSYYYYY now. You took this all wrong. I asked if he felt his wife and kids could do it. I never said they couldn't. I never said a woman couldn't, my mom could run the %%%% out of her stove. She could maintain a steady temp in that kitchen and living room like nobody's business. That don't mean my wife can though. She couldn't run the corn stove to save her %%%. And that was pretty simple. And yes, she's smart, she's an RN. But book smarts only gets you so far. She is not good with anything mechanical. And that is fine, we all have things we are good at. There is NO way I could do her job. As far as kids, yes mine are at the age they could do it. But I don't have a stove, so what is the point of finding someone with a stove so I can teach them?!? I don't even know if OP has kids let alone are they 5 or 18. I sure wouldn't expect a 5 yr old to run a fire(although I know a few that could). I was merely pointing towards something to consider. Please don't take what I said the wrong way. I'm not a fast typer, then throw in the fact I am posting on a phone, I am not going to spell everything out. Heck, this took me over ten minutes to type, defending myself on something I never meant to be taken wrong.

As for the pellet burner aspect, I had a corn stove(same principle) NEVER again. It did alright. But not when it got COLD. I'm digging being able to keep the house at 70-75° versus 55 in the morning because it wouldn't keep up with a cold night. It was cheap to run since I grew my own corn, but I'd rather be warm. I know someone who just put in a pellet burner last fall, all they did was complain all winter about the heated room was warm and the rest of the house was cold.

My wife (and future kids - none yet at this point) could run a OWB but she wouldn't want to. She'd let the LP furnace kick on and heat before filling the OWB.

I didn't go with OWB. I didn't have the 10-12,000 to plunk down on a decent unit. I went with a Kuuma Vaporfire 100. Best thing I've ever done for heating. Love it. Uses less wood, no creosote, and our house is so warm in the winter!

Another problem I have is OWB eat wood like none other!!! Not to mention, who in their right mind wants to feed that thing in rain, wind, snow, sleet, and such. YUCK... I walk down to my basement in shorts at 10pm and throw a few pieces in. Tell her good night and do it again at 6am..

The quantity of wood doesn't really scare me so much as the price I'll end up paying like you said... I have to wonder what it would cost for a OWB or Gasifier fully installed used or new I wouldn't care. The big thing is that we aren't home during the day... we both have 8hr work days plus commute so I would want something that could run 10hours or better on one fill of fuel... The wood furnace gasifier sounds like a good option if I could add an exterior entrance to bring wood in from. The only hesitation I have is that we would be charged more for insurance and I would have to add a smoke stack to run outside some how... Keeping the mess outside seems simpler and keeps my time cost down running chimneys and adding a rear basement entrance.

So how much does a good gasifier cost? or a traditional OWB that could last for 10hrs once full with wood?

 

[iowa]

My Kuuma VF 100 runs easy 10hr-12hrs with a full load of wood. I bought mine shipped to me for around $4750. I already had the flue pipe in from a few yrs ago.

A good OWB cost an easy $10,000. Plus a cement pad, plumbing, labor, etc. Your easily talking an extra $7000 on top of what you could do a Kuuma for. And then you have to feed it twice as much! And do all of that in the cold, snow, rain. etc.

I was really close to putting in an OWB myself. But after talking to folks around here that have them and find out how much they are and how much wood they eat. I said NO THANKS!

Very happy with the route I went. 250 deg flue temps. No creosote. And all the heat stays in the house. Why pipe hot water from 50 feet away? Sounds like a mess after 10yrs. Pumps, leaks, etc. And the loss of btu's....

 

[nstueve]

My Kuuma VF 100 runs easy 10hr-12hrs with a full load of wood. I bought mine shipped to me for around $4750. I already had the flue pipe in from a few yrs ago.

A good OWB cost an easy $10,000. Plus a cement pad, plumbing, labor, etc. Your easily talking an extra $7000 on top of what you could do a Kuuma for. And then you have to feed it twice as much! And do all of that in the cold, snow, rain. etc.

I was really close to putting in an OWB myself. But after talking to folks around here that have them and find out how much they are and how much wood they eat. I said NO THANKS!

Very happy with the route I went. 250 deg flue temps. No creosote. And all the heat stays in the house. Why pipe hot water from 50 feet away? Sounds like a mess after 10yrs. Pumps, leaks, etc. And the loss of btu's....

The major problem is hauling wood through the house to the stairs and then down into the basement. That's alot of work and it would be alot of work adding an exterior door to the basement as well... We have a concrete pad out back of the new house already and the water pipe would only need to be 25-30ft long including inside the house to the furnace. And piping/plumbing/wiring the thing isn't a problem since I have a buddy that has done it before and would be willing to help (most likely...).

My main problem would be delivering enough wood to either up a long steep driveway from the lower level of the property during winter... I wouldn't mind either really and with a 1998 Lenox furnace we may not need one right away but I figured that if we were going to burn wood why not put something in now and start saving right away!